martinedwards wrote: » he had the power to jump down off the cross and land on the ground with all the wounds fully healed, but he chose not to as a sacrifice to atone for OUR sins.
martinedwards wrote: » to be fair those were probably artist's impressions......cameras hadn't been invented
Safehands wrote: » The story of Jesus on the cross has always intrigued me. Having rough nails driven through the wrists or palms would shatter bones. Having more nails driven through a person's feet would be equally destructive of bones flesh and ligaments. It must have been excruciatingly painful. But Jesus was God. He could raise people from the dead. He could mend blindness, broken limbs and any other ailment he chose to. So is it not possible that he was able to switch off the pain. He would have had the power to do anything with his body, so driving nails into his hands would not necessarily cause him the same pain as it would to a normal human being.
martinedwards wrote: » he had the power to jump down off the cross and land on the ground with all the wounds fully healed, but he chose not to as a sacrifice to atone for OUR sins.the Suffering Christ is a RC theology. I've never heard it preached in a Protestant church that he suffered all OUR punishment, rather that he suffered because of our need for punishment if that differentiation makes sense? still, I've heard it preached that this is why RC churches have Christ still on the cross in their imagery, Christ is suffering on the cross for our sins..... whereas Prod churches have the empty cross to signify the emphasis on the risen Christ (which of course the RC church believes too, before someone yells at me!!)
SoulandForm wrote: » Very interesting question-my understanding is that Christ had not a normal fallen body like we have but the type of unfallen glorified body that Adam and Eve had before the fall; but He willed to assume the physical conditions of our fallen ones. The Apostles saw His body as it actually was on Mount Tabor. Coming to this realization really deepened my appreciation of Christ's work and gave me a tiny peek at how hellish and un-natural life in this sick and fallen world must have been for Him.
Safehands wrote: » Where does that information come from? How do we know he willed this body? The pain suffered must have been so extreme that we could not really imagine it. I broke my leg a couple of times and the pain was intolerable. I know therefore that any man with normal feelings could not have the weight of his body on feet and hands with broken bones and have any rational thought, let alone talk to people on the crosses beside him. In fact, that level of pain would most likely, cause a person to pass out. I know that these are very basic, non theological opinions, but that does not make them any less valid.
SoulandForm wrote: » Well He didnt have original sin did He? The nature of His body flows naturally from that.
Safehands wrote: » So he didn't feel the pain a normal man would have felt! that is all I am saying.
SoulandForm wrote: » He did and more so not naturally but because He personally willed it.
Safehands wrote: » Hang on a bit. If he could will himself to feel more pain, he could just as easily have willed himself to feel no pain. The evidence of him chatting to others suggests that he was not really in extreme pain. There is no evidence for your synopsis I'm afraid.
SoulandForm wrote: » Oh He felt the pain and could chat to other because as I said He willed to feel the pain and willed to chat to others- and also proclaim some Psalms.
Safehands wrote: » The evidence of him chatting to others suggests that he was not really in extreme pain.
Balaclava1991 wrote: » Since Jesus was God why did he have to suffer? Was he sacrificing himself to himself? What for? Since he was all powerful couldn't he just wipe away sin without having to go through the needless bother of being born, living for 33 years on earth, then dying a hideous death?
Lantus wrote: » A few posters have used the word sacrifice when they refer to the events surrounding the crucifixion of Jesus. This has always puzzled me as Jesus came back to life in perfect health a few days later and then ascended into heaven. Where was the sacrifice?
SoulandForm wrote: » His whole life on earth was a Sacrifice.
Manach wrote: » In spite of the high level of subjective proof being demanded, if you consider the historical records (in items called books), crucifixation was considered one the more darker of Roman punishments and added that to the fact that Jesus passed through the hands of some of viler dregs of the Roman legions who were posted to Jerusalem would not leave many people with the ability to chat.
martinedwards wrote: » you really have a bee in your bonnet about this doncha?
martinedwards wrote: » you really have a bee in your bonnet about this doncha?:p Ok Jesus was fully God and fully Human. we don't know if he turned off the pain (as he could have, being God and all that) but no theologian (protestant or RC) has ever suggested it. the idea that his talking on the cross proves he was pain free is wrong because the thieves crucified alongside him were talking. in the OT, sin required a blood sacrifice. read the OT, the temple was like an abattoir, with blood being sprinkled over the people...... (yuk) Jesus was the sacrificial lamb. just like the lambs and bulls used for sacrifice, "without defect"... in his case without sin. his blood had to be spilled in (lethal) sacrifice yes, he "got better" but the death occurred so the sacrifice stands.
