Pylons

JRant

Greensleeves wrote: »

I wasn't living in Ireland in 2009 so I didn't realise that there had been pylon protests in parts of Dublin. Was there a lot of opposition to them in Finglas?

There were some local objections raised but they got zero air time and for the most part Eirgrid and the ESB did what was reasonable and practicable.

There are more people in this one area than the entire route proposed by Eirgrid yet a few hundred people want the rest of us to foot the bill for undergrounding so they can enjoy "their" view.

Zen65

JRant wrote: »

Where was your indignation when the people of Finglas had a 400kV station, with a plethora of pylons, put on their doorstep?

When did that happen? I didn't hear of 400kV network reaching Dublin yet, I thought it stopped at Dunshaughlin?

Z

darkpagandeath

Blahblah2012 wrote: »

Well no. If you compare an LED tv to a CRT tv, the CRT uses 4 times the power.

Using 6x4w led gu10's instead of 6x50w halogen gu10's to light a room. Another huge difference even if you increase the LEDs to 10 per room.

I don't know what to say about the appartment issue and drying clothes?no such thing as a clothes horse and a rad?

Or there was a fella on dragons den using a hair dryer and a plastic bag

I think your kidding yourself that most people pay what €20 euro a bulb and buy all the most energy efficient products they can. As I have said the Greener the product the ramp up in price. Drying things on the rads seems like a good idea but there is only so much space and all your doing there is changing electricity for gas (and creating damp). I’m guessing you don't live in an apartment as just try putting the washing out in your tiny balcony on a cloths horse to dry. You will get a letter faster than anything regarding their policy on keeping the tone of the neighbourhood up. I find it hard to believe You think energy demand is going down Due to greener products.

Blahblah2012

darkpagandeath wrote: »

I think your kidding yourself that most people pay what €20 euro a bulb

€20 euro a bulb? Where were you robbed?

Try €6 a bulb.

darkpagandeath wrote: »

and buy all the most energy efficient products they can.

A lot do. They pay for themselves over their lifespan.

darkpagandeath wrote: »

As I have said the Greener the product the ramp up in price.

Power companies certainly wouldn't want people to conserve energy..although they'd then just "ramp up" the standing charge!!!

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Drying things on the rads seems like a good idea but there is only so much space

Are you running a dry cleaning service for the whole apt block?

darkpagandeath wrote: »

all your doing there is changing electricity for gas (and creating damp).

Correct me if I'm wrong but its cheaper to do it with gas. Hence why you heat your hot tank off the heating system rather than immersion.

darkpagandeath wrote: »

I’m guessing you don't live in an apartment as just try putting the washing out in your tiny balcony on a cloths horse to dry.

No I live beside a 400kva line and dry my clothes on the cables while catching some rays. Works wonders and Makes me feel great. I love fûcking around with my own magnetic field.

darkpagandeath wrote: »

You will get a letter faster than anything regarding their policy on keeping the tone of the neighbourhood up.

We need people like this to deal with the assholes in Eirgrid/ESB who want to force people to allow them erect their Shîte on other people's property....TO KEEP THE TONE OF THE PLACE UP!!!!!

darkpagandeath wrote: »

I
I find it hard to believe You think energy demand is going down Due to greener products.

Well that is the aim of improving efficiency...it reduces consumption.

Mountainsandh

JRant wrote: »

Well that's a lovely story but has absolutely no relevance what so ever. Where was your indignation when the people of Finglas had a 400kV station, with a plethora of pylons, put on their doorstep?

That's right, you and your ilk didn't give a dam back in 2009 because it wasn't in your back-yard. NIMBYism at its finest.

Why should you receive special treatment that wasn't afforded to tens of thousands of residents in West Dublin?

What makes your part of the country so special?

I never heard of anything going on in Finglas, if I had I might have been outraged too.
What are you angry at exactly ? The fact that people are mobilizing themselves to make themselves heard ? The people of Finglas I'm sure had the same opportunity to gather support and publicize their plight if they so wished, same as what people are now doing in other parts.

The "special treatment" notion is your invention.
As far as I'm concerned, any place that is going to be significantly defaced by the intrusion of pylons deserves a rethink and renegociation.

Of course industrial zones are a different story, the spot is usually picked to be a bit away from habitations and in a non sensitive area, so infrastructure fits in well there. (Although of course with the corrupted years I'm sure a lot of industrial zones have been placed in silly spots). I had a look at Finglas on Google maps, and it looks like they attempted to place the substation in such a spot, near an industrial zone, and on the other side of the M50 ? I don't know the area so I don't know if the people in the town area had a lovely view across the M50 to start with. According to Eirgrid transmission map it seems a lot of underground cable then brings the power across to the East.

Remember please my concern is mostly with people's quality of life, and tourism.
I have mentioned the environment in that context, so joela seems to think that I, along with others, are concerned for bats and birds.

For me that's not the case. I don't think pylons affect the wildlife very much, I don't even think turbines affect the wildlife very much, some birds and bats when they're badly located maybe.

I'm concerned with tourism, and my story is about tourism, and what's important and beautiful to tourists, and how tourism is also a great source of revenue. See how it's relevant ?

This is what was interesting, beautiful and important to a French person (I don't know) when they came over to Ireland, just found that at random on Youtube, it's quite long and a bit boring, but the first minute will give you an idea.
http://youtu.be/gfPevX7lr7k

Mountainsandh

joela wrote: »

I find it terribly frustrating to listen to politicians & nimbys talking about the "environment" as if they have all been out there fighting for best practice in planning and insisting on the full application of environmental legislation. The reality is that these are the same politicians and people who are arguing against the greening of CAP, the cessation of turf cutting on legally protected sites, argue against fishing quotas, downsizing of trawlers, the application of cross compliance etc. etc. Oh and of course either live in or were strongly supportive of the rural sprawl, inappropriately designed one-off houses and did sweet fa about the water quality of the rivers which were the source of public supply.

Suddenly we have anti-wind campaigners, anti-pylon campaigners and politicians who "care" about the Irish landscape and environment. What a bloody joke to see the likes of Luke Flanagan and Marian Harkin supporting all the anti-campaigns while supporting illegal turf cutting. I also find it immensely insulting and irritating that people assume you are somehow in league with the government if you happen to disagree with the current spate of nimbyism towards turbines and pylons. Suddenly everyone cares about bats and birds and what is more know more than those of us who are academically and professionally qualified in the areas of environmental sciences and engineering. Sure what would we know, sure we are all following Enda blindly right?

Until the anti-campaigners on here and elsewhere stop with the hysteria and pretence of "care" for the environment I'm going to reamain cynical and call them out for being nimbys and cynical politicians making political hay. I'd also like to know how many of these people support our underfunded eNGOS like An Taisce, IWT, FIE, BirdWatch Ireland and Bat Conservation Ireland? How many of you actually give enough of a sh8t to add your voice to the real campaigns going on to protect the environment in Ireland? How many actually know what is protected and what our legislation means? With the exception of one or two I imagine it isn't a high number. Pffft be honest and stop using the environment as a bargaining tool and shield, those of us out there on the ground find it hard enough to conserve and protect it as it is and by using it as a nimby argument you only serve to undermine real environmental campaigners.

Erm... pssst.
You got a little mixed up there joela, unless I've missed it, nobody mentioned birds, bats, turf, and protecting the environment...

My own reference to the environment, if it is what brought you off track, is in regards to tourism and quality of life as in, visual impact. Not ecological impact.

I'll let you get back to it, maybe there was something about birds and bats and I've missed it.

edit : as regards urban sprawl I have described my one off earlier, show of hands for people who renovated maybe ?

almighty2

I really have to laugh at the people calling the anti-pylon brigade as NIMBYS.
It could be construed that those people are confirmed NIMBYS themselves and that's why they don't give a flying fook.

If pylons were dumped in their back yard then they certainly would change their tune.

And as for the pylons going through Finglas and other places in Dublin. They have plenty of other things to worry about such as drugs, shootings, muggings, joyriding, teenage pregnancies, social welfare etc. Pylons would be the least of their worries.


Mod: Re-reg banned

joela

Mountainsandh wrote: »

Erm... pssst.
You got a little mixed up there joela, unless I've missed it, nobody mentioned birds, bats, turf, and protecting the environment...

My own reference to the environment, if it is what brought you off track, is in regards to tourism and quality of life as in, visual impact. Not ecological impact.

I'll let you get back to it, maybe there was something about birds and bats and I've missed it.

edit : as regards urban sprawl I have described my one off earlier, show of hands for people who renovated maybe ?

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

darkpagandeath

almighty2 wrote: »

I really have to laugh at the people calling the anti-pylon brigade as NIMBYS.
It could be construed that those people are confirmed NIMBYS themselves and that's why they don't give a flying fook.

If pylons were dumped in their back yard then they certainly would change their tune.

I'm confused what pylons are being dumped right in peoples back yards I thought most were being put like 500m away. Or is the whole area around these house’s their private backyard ? Unlike in Urban areas were most people are close to all this stuff.

joela

almighty2 wrote: »

I really have to laugh at the people calling the anti-pylon brigade as NIMBYS.
It could be construed that those people are confirmed NIMBYS themselves and that's why they don't give a flying fook.

If pylons were dumped in their back yard then they certainly would change their tune.

If the planning has been done properly and the route for the powerline has been chosen appropriately then I see no reason why I would object to a pylon. I quite honestly couldn't give a damn if someone put a pylon behind my house.

almighty2

darkpagandeath wrote: »

I'm confused what pylons are being dumped right in peoples back yards I thought most were being put like 500m away. Or is the whole area around these house’s their private backyard ? Unlike in Urban areas were most people are close to all this stuff.

Can be a little as 50m afaik.

almighty2

joela wrote: »

If the planning has been done properly and the route for the powerline has been chosen appropriately then I see no reason why I would object to a pylon. I quite honestly couldn't give a damn if someone put a pylon behind my house.

You are thinking hypothetically , if it actually was going to happen you would change your mind. To state you would be in the minority would be a complete understatement. Are all those people incorrect or wrong then?

Mountainsandh

joela not one, but 4 rolleyes, you're killing me. :eek: :P

Yes it's definitely a lot less than 500m in a lot of spots, or at least it was previously.

So that means that people who had a 20m pylon passing say, 25/30 m from their house, could now have a 40m plus pylon at that same distance, as far as I understand.

joela

almighty2 wrote: »

You are thinking hypothetically , if it actually was going to happen you would change your mind. To state you would be in the minority would be a complete understatement. Are all those people incorrect or wrong then?

No I genuinely have greater concerns about the countryside than a pylon in my backyard.

almighty2

joela wrote: »

No I genuinely have greater concerns about the countryside than a pylon in my backyard.

You do? What are they?

The fact is that I don't believe. That you wouldn't be outraged that a pylon would devalue your property. That (if you were househunting) you wouldn't choose an identical house 1 mile down the road that doesn't have a pylon in the backyard.

joela

Mountainsandh wrote: »

joela not one, but 4 rolleyes, you're killing me. :eek: :P

Yes it's definitely a lot less than 500m in a lot of spots, or at least it was previously.

So that means that people who had a 20m pylon passing say, 25/30 m from their house, could now have a 40m plus pylon at that same distance, as far as I understand.

That was the only appropriate response to a post which exhibited such a limited understanding of landscape, environment and why tourists are attracted to Ireland. This should help you begin to understand why http://www.noticenature.ie/tourism.html

joela

almighty2 wrote: »

You do? What are they?

I think I outlined some of them earlier if you care to read back.

My life doesn't revolve around the value of my property so no I wouldn't care.

almighty2

joela wrote: »

I think I outlined some of them earlier if you care to read back.

I'm not that bothered really, I'm not wasting my time. You're posts and statements are phony.

JK91

darkpagandeath wrote: »

they do know that in most countries skyscraper are a good thing for trade and tourism right ?

Too true millions visit Paris, Amsterdam and Rome every year to witness the breathtaking skylines, they'd be screwed when it comes to tourism without them. And while we're at it, give me Dallas or Kansas City over Copenhagen or Barcelona any day of the week, way better skylines than the latter.

joela

almighty2 wrote: »

I'm not that bothered really, I'm not wasting my time. You're posts and statements are phony.

I see, typical response from someone who can't accept that some people aren't obsessed with their house value. Obviously I must be making phony statements if I don't agree with you. :rolleyes:

Capt'n Midnight

Blahblah2012 wrote: »

€20 euro a bulb? Where were you robbed?

Try €6 a bulb.

Try €2.39 a bulb for 20W CFL's in Woodies last month

Shop around folks

Capt'n Midnight

Greensleeves wrote: »

Germany is a cautionary tale of how energy polices can harm the economy

It's tale of how over recent years the wholesale price halved to 3.8c a unit while the UK have agreed to pay EDF 11.2c per unit for nuclear.

Yes the retail consumer got landed with extra charges but that's how stealth taxes work.

Capt'n Midnight

Greensleeves wrote: »

And why is Germany building more coal power stations if wind energy works so well?

Lignite is cheaper than gas.
Carbon tax is much lower than projected
Germany is exporting power to Switzerland , Austria an France.

And most important of all they replacing older power plants with more efficient ones. So yes coal is still being burnt but the new stations get 25% more electricity out of the same amount of coal through the use of higher temperatures, Carnot and all that.

Blahblah2012

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Try €2.39 a bulb for 20W CFL's in Woodies last month

Shop around folks

I prefer LED. That's not a gu10 anyway(correct me if I'm wrong)

darkpagandeath

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Try €2.39 a bulb for 20W CFL's in Woodies last month

Shop around folks

Was going on the price of the last time I was in woodies some bulbs were upto €32 crazy prices

Capt'n Midnight

Blahblah2012 wrote: »

Really? Was a windy month alright. You get that from here?

http://www.aweablog.org/blog/post/wind-energy-blows-away-records-across-europe-driving-emissions-and-electricity-prices-down

Thanks I was looking for a link to Portugal

At times, Portugal has reliably produced more than 90% of its electricity from wind.

Though some might not consider 90% significant.

And what do you do when it's not or is too strong to harvest?

You use dispatchable power. In summer our peak evening demand is twice the base load at night. And in winter the base load doubles. The grid has to cope with a factor of three in total demand and much larger extremes locally as factories and offices in one area close down and people go home to use lots of electricity in another area. And have the ability to kick in within 5 seconds to take up 75% of the slack if a couple hundred MW suddenly goes off line.

Compared to that catering for predictable wind is easy , provided you have the capacity to handle the power.

Capt'n Midnight

Blahblah2012 wrote: »

Well no. If you compare an LED tv to a CRT tv, the CRT uses 4 times the power.

Using 6x4w led gu10's instead of 6x50w halogen gu10's to light a room. Another huge difference even if you increase the LEDs to 10 per room.

lol

My 32" CRT has a maximum rating of 95 Watts. And that depends a lot on the brightness of the screen.

How much power does a 42" LED TV use ? , I'll give you a clue , the backlight consumes the same amount of power whether you are watching a snowstorm or night scene.

what's actually happening with TV's is that people are getting bigger ones which cancels out the efficiency gains. - if you dispute that then you'll have to prove that everyone used to have 42" CRT :rolleyes:


there may be a similar effect with more efficient lighting as the historical spend on light as a percentage of GDP hasn't changed much since the introduction of oil based lamps centuries ago. People like light and if it's cheaper they'll probably use more.


But CFL's have been around for yonks so much of the reduction has already happened. Yes the most efficient LED's will beat CFL's but I still haven't seen any on the market. Cree have demonstrated LED's with more than 250 lumens per watt, and philips have done 200 Lm/w systems. The savings compared to existing CFL's is only about 5% of what incandescents used to use, and they haven't hit the shops yet.

Blahblah2012 wrote: »

I prefer LED. That's not a gu10 anyway(correct me if I'm wrong)

Compare the lumens per watt to CFL's, they are still cheaper until the best LED's are commercialised. In a very few years they will be more efficient and it will be a no-brainer to switch to them, at present it's more about start times / colour temp / dimability and that you can't have CFL on 12V transformers.

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Was going on the price of the last time I was in woodies some bulbs were upto €32 crazy prices

If it was me I'd ban E27 fittings on the basis that the bulbs are usually twice the the price of entry level B22 of similar spec even though the the only difference is the metal bits of the base. Also a wrongly wired socket for E27 would be live. And E27 bulbs constantly need retightening over their life. My feelings on other non-standard bulbs is similar. They cost a lot more for a different physical connection on the same filament, just a mechanism to extract cash from consumers.

Mountainsandh

joela wrote: »

That was the only appropriate response to a post which exhibited such a limited understanding of landscape, environment and why tourists are attracted to Ireland. This should help you begin to understand why http://www.noticenature.ie/tourism.html

Wow, you really don't understand me.
Your link actually supports my arguments as regards tourism and pylons, you do realize that ?

In a 2005 survey, the scenery and quality of sightseeing was the primary
motivation for visiting Ireland. Furthermore, two in every three visitors that
toured the country by car, did so to enjoy the scenery and attractions Ireland
has to offer.

Fáilte Ireland

Fáilte Ireland, the
National Tourism Development Authority works in strategic partnership with
tourism interests to support the industry in its efforts to be more competitive
and more profitable and to help individual enterprises to enhance their
performance.

It was allocated funding under the Tourism Product Development Scheme
2002-2006 to develop the tourism product in a sustainable way that widens the
spatial spread of tourism, diverts pressure from highly developed areas and
increases under-performing Regions' share of overseas tourism revenue. Fáilte
Ireland has recently established an environmental unit to promote sustainable
tourism and have a specific remit to comment on planning applications

Scenery and sightseeing is not the only important draw for tourists, Ireland
has recently become one of Europe’s top whale watching destinations. It is also
an attractive destination for birdwatchers and outdoor activity enthusiasts.

Economically tourism is very important to Ireland. In 2006, 6.4 million
tourists visited Ireland from overseas and the tourism industry was worth an
overall €5.9 billion. These figures indicate the importance tourism plays as
part of our overall economy not to mention the importance in terms of
employment. Protecting Biodiversity ensures that this sector continues to enjoy
success.

Now if you want to find a quote from me saying that tourists should trash the countryside, please go right ahead.

Again just to be really clear, my point is that an over-inflated number of pylons will :
~ affect the quality of life of locals negatively. This could be acceptable to a reasonable extent if this was justified for the good of Irish people. It is not acceptable if a large proportion of that surplus is due to private money making projects.
~ affect tourism greatly, thereby not only affecting locals way of life, but also gnawing down revenue that is badly needed along the route.

Thanks for the very helpful link above, some posters here seemed under the impression that tourism was not a big deal in Ireland, and that tourists mostly visited for museums.

Blahblah2012

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

lol

Yeah?

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

My 32" CRT has a maximum rating of 95 Watts. And that depends a lot on the brightness of the screen.

How much power does a 42" LED TV use ?

http://energyusecalculator.com/electricity_lcdleddisplay.htm
(On a quick search)

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

what's actually happening with TV's is that people are getting bigger ones which cancels out the efficiency gains. - if you dispute that then you'll have to prove that everyone used to have 42" CRT :rolleyes:

Not, on average, big enough ones to create greater power consumption!!
Less on average.

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

People like light and if it's cheaper they'll probably use more.

What are you talking about? People use lights when they need light.

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

But CFL's have been around for yonks so much of the reduction has already happened.

More to go for some so.

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Compare the lumens per watt to CFL's, they are still cheaper until the best LED's are commercialised.

I'm happy enough with the 4w led gu10s

Capt'n Midnight

Blahblah2012 wrote: »

http://energyusecalculator.com/electricity_lcdleddisplay.htm
(On a quick search)

OMG you can googles , you winz the internets !!!!!!

Like I said the max rating of my 32" is 95 watts. You haven't shown that a typical 42" TV would use less power. (that link says 80 watts - one trick you can do with google is to actually verify what's on a page - I cba sticking in a power meter in my TV because it's not at max volume or brightness)

Not, on average, big enough ones to create greater power consumption!!
Less on average.

I've already said "what's actually happening with TV's is that people are getting bigger ones which cancels out the efficiency gains. - if you dispute that then you'll have to prove that everyone used to have 42" CRT"
And your link confirms that there isn't really much difference either way.

What are you talking about? People use lights when they need light.

Very roughly the spend of 1% of GDP on lighting has remained static even though the affordability has risen about thirty thousand times since 1700. www.sandia.gov/~jytsao/tsao_jy_2010_04_app_for_light_LEUKOS.pdf

We have self-consistently analyzed data for per-capita consumption of artificial
light, per-capita gross domestic product, and cost of light. The data span a wide
range: 3 centuries (1700–2006), 6 continents (Africa, Asia, Australia, Europe,
North America, South America), 5 types of fuel (tallow, whale oil, gas, petroleum,
electricity), 5 overall families of lighting technologies (candles, oil lamps, gas
lamps, electric incandescent bulbs, electric gas-discharge bulbs or tubes), 1.4
orders of magnitude in per-capita gross domestic product, 4.3 orders of magnitude in cost of light, and 5.4 orders of magnitude in per-capita consumption of light.

We find that the data are consistent with a simple expression in which
per-capita consumption of artificial light varies linearly with the ratio between
per-capita gross domestic product and cost of light.

Or look at the graph on page 277

More to go for some so.

But not enough to slow the demand. We have more gadgets than before. Things like powerwashers for cars. Greater broadband access means computer ownership has gone up. Did I mention electric cars ? Air con / cooling in summer isn't something most of us were reared with.

I'm happy enough with the 4w led gu10s

remind me again how many KW the average electric connection is ??

If you turn on the oven, a hair dryer and the immersion you don't want to blow the main fuse. Saving a few watts on lighting won't save your main fuse going if you turn on a couple of two bar heaters and kettles and microwave on top of all that.

Same story with the grid. Minor savings won't stop the inexorable demand increase.