Making every mile count

dublin runner

With DCM 2013 done and dusted it is now time to look forward to 2014. I have lurked around these parts long enough and now the time is right to stick my head above the parapet!

Background

I began running in Spring 2012. Running a marathon was always a life goal. DCM 2012 was the target as it was my hometown marathon. I enjoyed the day and ran it in a very enjoyable 3.46:17. I loved every step. Beforehand I thought that this would be it, marathon box ticked and now to do something else! In truth, this was just the beginning and I quickly realised I wanted/needed to continue and improve (I’m quite competitive!).

2013 saw big improvements, particularly from August onward (here I began coaching sessions). My PB for the half marathon dropped to 1.24:28 (Athlone Flatline) and the possibility of a sub-three hour marathon became a real possibility. Training went well and I peaked with a 90 mile week three weeks out from the goal race of 2013.

The plan for Dublin this year was simple, run with the 3hr pacers until Mile 20, let the pack do the work and hopefully push on. I knew I was in good shape and secretly thought a 2.56.xx was a really possibility, although never sharing this with the coach! The plan was executed perfectly to Mile 20 and I felt strong. Here is where I wanted to gradually wind things up and finish strong, bringing the miles down to the 6.20’s. Unfortunately, cramp struck from nowhere at mile 22. What a time for your first ever leg cramp! I dug in and motored on. To be honest I was in pain. The pace never slowed though and I finished in 2.58:53. I was delighted but annoyed at the same time. I was full of energy but cramp stopped me cruising to the time I secretly wanted.

2014

My 5/10k times are quite weak in comparison to my marathon time. November and December will see my first ever plan for these distances. January will see the start of a new marathon training.

Distance|PB|Goal
5k|18:24|>17:20
10k|40:09|>36:30
Half M|1.24.28|>1.20.00
Mar|02.50:53|02.49:59


The plan and goal is the Paris Marathon in April but I have a few fall back options in case that doesn't work out. My 10K time is particularly soft so I’m look forward to taking a chunk off that! These targets will motivate me until Spring.

Anyway. The days since Dublin involved way too much Guinness and bad food so time to get out those runners and get running.

Cleanman

Best of luck with it dublin runner. That's some improvement in time and mileage. I'll be following this with interest.

AuldManKing

Great goals, nice story! Best of luck with the log and the running.

fowler1

Good stuff I will dip in here reguraly as I hope to break 2 50 myself next year.
My stats 41 years young
pb 10 k 35 30
10 m 58 20
half 1 17 20
full 2 52 30
I know I should be running a low 2 40 some thing off those but I struggle
after 22 mile ,:D before village runner reminds me.

dublin runner

fowler1 wrote: »

Good stuff I will dip in here reguraly as I hope to break 2 50 myself next year.
My stats 41 years young
pb 10 k 35 30
10 m 58 20
half 1 17 20
full 2 52 30
I know I should be running a low 2 40 some thing off those but I struggle
after 22 mile ,:D before village runner reminds me.

Great times. Don't think you'll have any problem with breaking 2.50 with those times. You obviously have the pace. Look forward to seeing your progress and might catch you at a race....i'll be the one behind you!

dublin runner

Marlay Parkrun 09-11-2013

Pos: 7th

Time: 17:39

Felt I needed to get some speed back in the legs today. I also wanted to do a self-appraisal to see how the form was. 5k is definitely my weakest distance. I find it a difficult distance to judge and to be honest, it's the distance I most avoid. Happy enough with with the time given the effort exerted. I think I could have shaved of another 20-30 seconds if I really wanted/needed to. I think this race bodes well for the future and I look forward to many more Parkruns (brilliantly organised by the way). I think 16:xx is maybe not as far off as I thought.

-W/U .5 mile
-5k Race
-W/D 4.1 @7.02 p/m in 28.52
-Total 7.7 miles

(I'm very bad at warm-ups before that's pointed out! Needs work)

blockic

Great run this morning dublin runner. We look to be very close time wise currently and very similar goals. We will likely be bumping into each other in future races. Looking forward to following.

AuldManKing

dublin runner wrote: »

(I'm very Lazy at warm-ups before that's pointed out! Needs work)

FYP

dublin runner

AuldManKing wrote: »

FYP

Haha. I just hang around and pretend to know what I am doing! Must get into a routine.

dublin runner

blockic wrote: »

Great run this morning dublin runner. We look to be very close time wise currently and very similar goals. We will likely be bumping into each other in future races. Looking forward to following.

Thanks. Happy enough. Looking forward to racing against you. I'll be the one clipping your heels....:-)

fowler1

What kind of training are u up to at the moment.
I am only running 4 days a week till x mas.
Monday hills on treadmill 7 by 1k at incline 3 finishing with 1 mile at incline 3
Wed 8 mile steady
Fri 8 mile including 10k at 38 minutes
Sun 10 mile easy

dublin runner

fowler1 wrote: »

What kind of training are u up to at the moment.
I am only running 4 days a week till x mas.
Monday hills on treadmill 7 by 1k at incline 3 finishing with 1 mile at incline 3
Wed 8 mile steady
Fri 8 mile including 10k at 38 minutes
Sun 10 mile easy

This week, like the previous week, has involved a lot of easy runs since the marathon. I'll post an update about the training and the training cycle leading up to the marathon. Next week I will begin structured training again. Might end up doing the Run In The Dark 10k on Wednesday. I'll see!

Great session on Thursday! Would that be your tempo run? Find the hill repeats on the treadmill great. Any races/target planned for the new year?

fowler1

Big advantage on thread mill is u do not waste time jogging back down,
and it keeps everything consistent. The Dungarvan and Ballycotton ten
milers so far.

dublin runner

For anyone interested here is the 10 weeks leading up to the Dublin Marathon. It's maybe not the clearest but you'll get the idea

AuldManKing

thanks for sharing that - looks very solid.

On your 'Steady' runs - typically what pace was that?
Also - was this plan put together by a coach or is it off the shelf (or self made)??

dublin runner

Hey, thanks. The last few weeks by the coach, yes. Helpful to finally finish it today. I think looking back there was a distinct lack of speed work. Hopefully with the marathon done and dusted i'll get a chance to address that.

blockic

dublin runner wrote: »

I think looking back there was a distinct lack of speed work.

Distinct lack of rest days too!

dublin runner

blockic wrote: »

Distinct lack of rest days too!

Ha Used to take rest days but found they don't suit me. Always felt lethargic and stiff after a day off so decided to only have a day off when I felt I needed to. Luckily I only suffered a sprained ankle (getting off a bus if you mind!) so got lucky there!

dublin runner

RUN IN THE DARK 2013

36:46

Luckily I won an entry into this race. The plan was simple:

-Knock a chunk off the PB (soft target)
-See how the form was heading into 2014

I really enjoy night running. The conditions looked good with a strong headwind on the Quays being the only negative. After a decent warm up I was ready for the off. Unfortunately due to traffic reasons the race was delayed by 20 minutes. Not ideal but these things can happen. With this week comprising of many easy runs I was really looking forward to stretching the legs.

The first lap went well and I felt good. I have felt the Garmin was slightly impeding my running recently rather than aiding it so I decided to use the stopwatch to keep me on track for this one. The second lap is where the race got interesting. The congestion got progressively worse and to be honest, dangerous. You simply can not mix runners and walkers on the same bit of narrow road. The last 2k was all about getting the race over without injuring myself or a fellow competitor. I hate to be negative as this race is all about a great cause this issue must be addressed. It was that bad.

Aside from the congestion I enjoyed the race and I was happy with my time as I could not have gone a second quicker in the last few kilometers due of the crowd.

I apologise to all the people I gave a fright to during my weaving between people. Seeing a man of 6’3’’ hurtling towards you can not be enjoyable!

Finished the race with plenty left in the tank. Considering the Waterford Half in December as the next target race.

blockic

dublin runner wrote: »

Considering the Waterford Half in December as the next target race.

Get on that quick, I think reg is closed soon.

Nice running considering all the drama with the race!

dublin runner

blockic wrote: »

Get on that quick, I think reg is closed soon.

Nice running considering all the drama with the race!

Thanks for the info. I will book this morn. Might even have a crack at 80min!

AuldManKing

that was a great time, given the course congestion.

In your 1st post, you mention getting some coaching that led to the solid improvements in your times.
Is that by joining a club or getting online coaching or what??

Is it factored on building aerobic capacity or anaerobic??

dublin runner

AuldManKing wrote: »

that was a great time, given the course congestion.

In your 1st post, you mention getting some coaching that led to the solid improvements in your times.
Is that by joining a club or getting online coaching or what??

Is it factored on building aerobic capacity or anaerobic??

Thanks. Yeah, decent time (90% effort) and hopefully a good indicator for the future. Would like to think I could go low 35's in the next few months.

I organised the coaching myself. I will probably join a club in the new year while continuing the sessions. Did 8 sessions over 3 months leading up to the marathon and found it brilliant. Before this I followed the P&D 55-70mpw plan so I had a solid enough base aerobically.

blockic

AuldManKing wrote: »

that was a great time, given the course congestion.

In your 1st post, you mention getting some coaching that led to the solid improvements in your times.
Is that by joining a club or getting online coaching or what??

Is it factored on building aerobic capacity or anaerobic??

Even if you only get down once a month...join a club will ya!

AuldManKing

blockic wrote: »

Even if you only get down once a month...join a club will ya!

I've no time to join a club - too busy running.

dublin runner

AuldManKing wrote: »

I've no time to join a club - too busy running.

Excuses, excuses Must join a club though. Been on the long finger too long. Picking the club will be hard hard part......

fowler1

Ran Stook ten miler yesterday in 61 15 so the form is good.Next up is the Waterford half

dublin runner

Week Summary

November 11-17th

Still slightly in limbo at the moment. I guess that is to be expected after the marathon.

Monday
6.7 miles Easy

Tuesday
4 miles Easy

Wednesday
10K ‘Run In the Dark’ in 36:46 with .5mile warm-up
-Embarrassed to even call that a ‘warm-up’. Didn't really matter in the end with a 20 minute delay to the start.

Thursday
6.1 Recovery (treadmill) @ 7.25p/m and swim
-After 3 laps of the 25m pool I was gone. I thought I was playing it smart by sharing the lane with a middle-aged lady, rather than the speedy looking ones. Big mistake! She was a very strong swimmer and was pushing me. Delighted to get out of the pool with my dignity well and truly dented :-) Ironman will have to wait….

Friday
5.70 miles Easy @7.25p/m

Saturday
7.35 miles Easy @7.20p/m
-Planned some speed work here but delighted to get a few miles down after waking up with a very sore knee.

Sunday
8.30 Easy @7.18p/m

Week Total: 44.8 miles

Very uneventful running as you can see! Low mileage and intensity but that will all change in the upcoming weeks. Have been very structured with core-work and stretching this week. My next race will be the Waterford Half next Sunday. After not 100% racing the previous 5/10k this is now a target race. Will be targeting 1.20:xx. Whether or not this is in me I do not know. There’s only one way to find out!

dublin runner

fowler1 wrote: »

Ran Stook ten miler yesterday in 61 15 so the form is good.Next up is the Waterford half

Great time. Heard it's a brilliant race. Love the idea of the 'flying mile'. Any target time for Waterford?

dublin runner

November 18-20th

Monday 18/11
10.47 miles Easy @7.04p/m in 1.14:03

Chance to start increasing the mileage here. Nice controlled run and felt good.

Tuesday 19/11
5.85 miles Easy @7.03p/m in 41:14

With the DS Trainers nearing there final days I popped into Elverys and bought a pair of DS Racers (€55...bargain!) Very happy with how they felt on this run. Light and cushioned so my type of runner! Might keep these as a training shoe and keep the Cloudracers for racing.

Wednesday 20/11
7.82 miles Steady Run @6.27p/m in 50:25

This was by far the toughest run since Dublin. Needed to introduce speed into the mix so took the opportunity on a typical windy November morn (!) Faced the full force of the wind at mile three and definitely slowed after a fast start. Held the pace well so a good session overall but it was a hard one.

Plan next week at the Waterford Half is to run as close to six minute miles as possible but this might be a stretch. 6.27 per mile is my current HM pace so I am confident of comfortably improving on this next week after today and marathon cycle training.

fowler1

Going to start out at 6 min miles and see how it goes , we have to say
hello before the start.

dublin runner

fowler1 wrote: »

Going to start out at 6 min miles and see how it goes , we have to say
hello before the start.

Definitely. Sounds like we are planning a similar pace. Not too sure my 6 min miles will last for though....:)

ecoli

Hi DR

Finally catching up on the log and first off congrats on some great performances as of late. Out of interest did your coach specify paces for your "Easy runs"? Couldn't help but notice that alot of your easy runs seem a little on the quick side and that there was very little differentiation between your recovery and easy days (save the change in terrain).

dublin runner

ecoli wrote: »

Hi DR

Finally catching up on the log and first off congrats on some great performances as of late. Out of interest did your coach specify paces for your "Easy runs"? Couldn't help but notice that alot of your easy runs seem a little on the quick side and that there was very little differentiation between your recovery and easy days (save the change in terrain).

Hey

Thanks. Just got caught up on your log there myself, brilliant stuff. Going very well.

It's a very good question and a question I find hard to answer! With regards to Easy/Recovery runs, I am not pace drive i.e 7.40 p/m. I rarely carry the Garmin for these runs and judge the pace by how I feel and by effort rather than saying for example, an Easy run must be 7.30-50 p/m. I find that restricts me and prefer to listen to the body. In saying that, my recovery runs are probably too fast and I aim to only run these on grass when the mileage increases during the next marathon cycle (your point is very well made).

My coach never really specified a pace for my Easy/Recovery runs. What he did specify was the actual time between runs to gain maximum recovery on the Easy/Recovery days. For example:


Friday:
11 miles Easy followed by 4 x 30 sec fast strides with 30 sec jog recovery
Sat:
AM 8 miles Easy no pace required
Sunday
PM Long Run 17 miles 7:20/7:25 (try and run this PM allow yourself as close to 36 hrs recovery from Saturdays run)

As I said, I find that one a hard one to answer!

blockic

dublin runner wrote: »

Friday:
11 miles Easy followed by 4 x 30 sec fast strides with 30 sec jog recovery
Sat:
AM 8 miles Easy no pace required
Sunday
PM Long Run 17 miles 7:20/7:25 (try and run this PM allow yourself as close to 36 hrs recovery from Saturdays run)

As I said, I find that one a hard one to answer!

Easy runs should not take too much out of you. The fact that you need to consider recovery from them means that you are likely to be doing them too fast imo.

Slow the recovery runs away down, 8min/mile + maybe even 8:30s and you will be able to save your energy for the sessions and will be more lilely to nail and perform better in them.

ecoli

I can understand the run by feel but sometimes we train our body into believing that it is easy pace when sometimes we are actually working harder than perceived.Taking your recent marathon time some of your runs this week have been within 20 sec of marathon pace couple this with no rest days you may find that you are under recovering for you sessions.

This is not a criticism as it is a common pitfall (I did this myself a few years back and have had a few athletes who had to set speed limits for the first few months in order to re-train their percieved effort)

I completely agree with run by feel but also need to take into account conditioning (not fitness but rather if we repeat the same thing for long enough it will essentially become the default pace)

The thing that really nailed this home for me was running with my old coach (sub 2.17 marathoner) who had me running paces outside 8 min which was unheard of for me (similarly there were times when running with him in the high 7s where I was feeling uncomfortably slow). Over time my body started to get used to the adaptations and my race times started dropping significantly.

Might be no harm once in a while to strap on the garmin just to re train the body while still overall sticking to the run by feel philosophy.

dublin runner

ecoli wrote: »

I can understand the run by feel but sometimes we train our body into believing that it is easy pace when sometimes we are actually working harder than perceived.Taking your recent marathon time some of your runs this week have been within 20 sec of marathon pace couple this with no rest days you may find that you are under recovering for you sessions.

This is not a criticism as it is a common pitfall (I did this myself a few years back and have had a few athletes who had to set speed limits for the first few months in order to re-train their percieved effort)

I completely agree with run by feel but also need to take into account conditioning (not fitness but rather if we repeat the same thing for long enough it will essentially become the default pace)

The thing that really nailed this home for me was running with my old coach (sub 2.17 marathoner) who had me running paces outside 8 min which was unheard of for me (similarly there were times when running with him in the high 7s where I was feeling uncomfortably slow). Over time my body started to get used to the adaptations and my race times started dropping significantly.

Might be no harm once in a while to strap on the garmin just to re train the body while still overall sticking to the run by feel philosophy.

Thanks, that's very good advice.

The point about 'default pace' is an interesting point and I think it applies to my training. Anything slower than 7.30 p/m genuinely feels uncomfortable. It feels quite artificial (forced) and I feel the form and running efficiency goes out the window. It's a mentality thing too. To maximize the benefit of the tempo, interval runs etc you have to runner slower (in my case) on the easy/recovery days. Will definitely look into it and take the Garmin the odd time! Cheers

dublin runner

November 21st-24th

Thursday 21/11
6.65 miles Easy @7.25p/m in 49:16

Friday 22/11
5.04 miles Recovery @7.52p/m in 39:40

I have always kind of known that my recovery runs were too fast so I really concentrated on the pace for this one (a thanks Ecoli for advice ). Nice to remove myself from the default pace I seem to always fall into for these runs. Think I will experiment a bit more and run these slower again, especially when building the miles up for the next marathon.

Saturday 23/11

8.80 miles

Warm-Up 2.81 miles @7.30p/m

St. Anne's Park Run in 18.27

Used this as a tool to get out of bed early on a cold Saturday morning and get some sub 6 minute miles into the week. I was not concentrating on time at all and it showed. It was almost a minute down on a fortnight previous. May have to be careful not to get into a a habit of racing at 80-90%. Will pencil in a Parkrun before the year is out and go full throttle. No excuses!

Brilliantly run race and fantastic atmosphere. I know it may not be everyone's cup of tea but I love the long straight avenue. It's a great section to reel someone in, particularly on the second lap.

Warm Down 2.88 miles @7.54p/m

Sunday 24/11

13.63 miles Medium Long Run @7.22 in 1.40:20

Needed to get a decent longish run in before the Waterford Half next week. Cannot beat Clontarf Strand on a night like this.

Week Total: 58 miles

Next week is all geared towards the half marathon so will aim to take one rest day (not a big fan of these!). Just need to set out a target. The next marathon was to be Paris but that may not be possible now as I may need to be in Ireland the day before. Tempted to do Connemara. Did the half last year and loved it. The training plan would change quite a bit as it's a bit of a hilly course...:) Long runs up to the carpark on Howth Head summit might be in order again!

dublin runner

November 25th-27th

Monday 25/11 AM
6.50 miles Easy @7.00p/m in 45:30

Once more fell into what I thought was an easy pace. With a late night (hungover!) run the previous night this should have been nice and easy in the morning. It felt like easy effort running but I felt pretty tired for the rest of the day for whatever reason. Easy days should be exactly that. Still learning

Tuesday 26/11 AM
8+ miles Various pace with coach

Wednesday 27/11 PM
6.06 miles Easy @7.33p/m in 45:45

Took this nice and easy. Will incorporate a small bit of speed work before the half on Sunday.

Good to sit down on Tuesday and set out the goals for the upcoming year, although it's was a bit daunting provisionally setting out a target time for Dublin 2014 already! I will be booking the Rotterdam Marathon in the next week so that has focused the mind.

dublin runner

Thursday 28/11 PM
5.75 miles Easy @7.22p/m in 42:18
-with 5x30second strides @3-5k pace

Really enjoy strides. They break up the run and get some speed into the legs without taking anything out. Find Winter training so enjoyable. Give me a cold dry Winter night over a hot (Irish) Summer day anytime.

Friday 29/11 PM
5.38 miles Easy @7.34p/m in 40:46

Easy pace has been fixed at 7.30p/m after talking to the coach.

All going well I should have a decent race this Sunday. I have taken it handy enough over the week so the body feels good. This is the last race of the year, baring a sneaky Parkrun, so looking forward to getting down to some serious training and hopefully having a right go at the Tom Brennan New Years Day 5K .

My PB for the half was set at the Athlone Flatline (1.24) in the middle of marathon training so this race give me an opportunity to see what type of shape I am in. I think Sunday will show a lot with my training and target times for 2014 open to revision.

P.s Is there anything worse than running past a person eating lovely smelling chipper chips?!

ecoli

Best of luck on Sunday

dublin runner

Enjoyed reading through some of your log a few nights back. Is your HM PB 1.17? Think i'll be a while before I get anywhere near that!

ecoli

dublin runner wrote: »

Enjoyed reading through some of your log a few nights back. Is your HM PB 1.17? Think i'll be a while before I get anywhere near that!

You may surprise yourself with patience and consistency you may get there before you know it.

dublin runner

Saturday 30/11 AM
3+ miles Easy

The usual pre-half marathon race run to stretch out the legs. Everything felt good so no excuses heading into the race.

Sunday 01/12

Waterford AC Half Marathon

Place: 49th

1:22:35 6:19p/m

Preparation for this race was really done on the back of a solid block of marathon training. The past four weeks have ticked by nicely, picking up a PB in both the 5k and 10k. I felt that a half marathon would be another key indicator of form heading into next year.

After a quick chat with the coach the advice was hit 1.22 and don't go out too fast. With plenty of time before the off I had a decent warm-up and headed over to the pen. I wasn't too sure what to expect in terms of the course layout so set out at a conservative 6.25p/m. Personally, I find the first four miles of any half the most difficult and challenging. I often become overcome with self doubt and find it hard to get into a rhythm and settle (think this may be linked to my warm-up). Around the mile 5 mark I found my rhythm the miles ticked by. The course was tough but fair with a number of drags and sharpish inclines. I found any sharp downhill section very tough. My technique in these sections needs a lot of work (give me an uphill any day ).

What became very apparent is my lack of a '5th gear'. I put this down to the lack of speed work over the past few months. Mile 8 is where I wanted to start increasing the pace but there was very little there. The tank was full but I couldn't get out of 4th gear. I attempted to speed up but it was at best half-hearted. Did I settle for 1.22? I think I did. Could I have done better? Certainly. Am I happy? Yes and No.

I finished and that was about it. I did mention (on seeing a man unable to walk after finishing behind me) that at least he put 100% effort into the race and can go home knowing that was his best. I think my best is still to come but I think I have settled into improving gradually and methodically rather than running the best race I can.

Half Marathon Results 2013

Time|Race
1.35:12|Connemara Half
1.29:12|River Moy Half
1.27:51|National Half
1.24:28|Athlone Flatline
1.25:05|Dublin Half
1.22:35|Waterford AC Half


I am delighted with how this year has gone, don't get me wrong! I just question my approach to these races and how best to maximise my potential (if any ). I think you need to learn a lesson from each race and this race has provided me with plenty to ponder over the next few days.

A big thank you to all involved today.

ecoli

Thats soome progression over the course of the year. Fair play man keep it up

dublin runner

ecoli wrote: »

Thats soome progression over the course of the year. Fair play man keep it up

Thanks. I subconsciously settled for my time to easily which annoyed me but delighted the way the year has gone, can't complain too much!

dublin runner

Monday 2/12 AM
6.2 miles Recovery (no pace)

Reevaluation time.

Since the half yesterday I have done a lot of thinking. Firstly, I have set a target time for Rotterdam with some guidance from the past week from the coach. I am quite goal orientated and somewhat ambitious so I have set myself the goal of 2.48:59. While this would require a 10 minute improvement I believe it to be a realistic target, rightfully or wrongfully! Some target races in the new year will give me an indication if this is a realistic possibility so all may change. I might book the Waterford Marathon in late June as a lot can change between here and Rotterdam.

So, to hit 2.48 will be tough and will require well structured training and a bit of luck on both the injury and race day weather front.

Here are the targets, with Rotterdam being the end goal.

Distance|PB|Goal
5k|17:39|>17:00
10k|36:46|>35:20
Half M|1.22.35|>1.19.00
Marathon|02.58:53|02.48:59


Wish me luck

fowler1

Enjoyed the Waterford half, ran 1 18 55 so happy with the form. Rest this week then concentrate on speed work over
x mas to prepare for Dungarvan ten miler.

blockic

fowler1 wrote: »

Enjoyed the Waterford half, ran 1 18 55 so happy with the form. Rest this week then concentrate on speed work over
x mas to prepare for Dungarvan ten miler.

Great run V on not an easy route.

dublin runner

blockic wrote: »

Great run V on not an easy route.

Thanks! Found the route tough enough to be honest. Legs were a bit stiff even yesterday so the inclines and the sharp declines took their toll. Enjoyed the race but in hindsight the course left me a bit cold. Think Bohermeen is the next target half.

dublin runner

fowler1 wrote: »

Enjoyed the Waterford half, ran 1 18 55 so happy with the form. Rest this week then concentrate on speed work over
x mas to prepare for Dungarvan ten miler.

Great time, congrats. As Blockic said, it wasn't an easy course. Is that a PB?