Reduced Capacity on Peak service

Jamie2k9

Snow Leopard wrote: »

Would I be correct in saying that the 22ks have become a more frequent sight on certain Dublin/Cork services these past few months? The 14:00 ex Dublin, and the 19:20 ex Cork (on Sundays at least) have been operated by MK4s for years, yet the 22k (usually the 4 carriage variant) is now the equipment of choice. Has utilisation of the MK4 fleet been reduced in recent times, or are they now being scheduled on alternative services?

The overall travel experience on the 22ks (for Dublin/Cork) is noticeably inferior. The reduced capacity has lead to more overcrowding, and the availability of a cafe/trolley service has become increasingly inconsistent. It's rarely worth the hassle anymore, so instead, I simply jump in the car.

Yes more 22's however catering on-board hasn't changed, all service have some form of catering. It's mainly peak services which are Mark 4's.

Jamie2k9

no, no, no, no, no . losing fare paying passengers is not acceptable, those passengers talk to their friends who might consider traveling by train and who when they hear the bad experience are put off, if irish rail wants to survive their attitude needs to be customer customer customer, not cost cost cost, at the expence of everything and everyone else, clearly carriges need to be increased on services, yet nobody seems to care, forget about varadker as IMO he hasn't a clue and doesn't care about public transport in general but irish rail management know the problems and need to get them sorted, the idea that its okay to lose some customers rather then put on an extra carrige is a laughable ideal, how far will we take it? we only have 3 car trains running around the network on all services with little standing?

It's business and all transport company's do it at some point. When GoBe cut Cork services why didn't you and others complain about fare paying passengers being lost?

That decision was on the costs verses revenue generated.

Take a 4 car train with 265 seats and lets say 10-15 people standing, a mix of fare paying and non far paying passengers, adding 1 extra carriage to a typical journey will costs bones of 1,000-1,500. (IE 6e per mile per coach), Now lets say 8 of the 12 standing are fare paying at most with average fares of 35 walk up prices would generate 280.

Improvements in yield management (the 9,99 sale) will help fill empty off peak to ease peak services a little.

Losing fare paying passengers is not acceptable because if this continues it will eventually impact on jobs in Irish Rail - people will be laid off. Not good.

Would have a very minimal effect.

end of the road

Snow Leopard wrote: »

Would I be correct in saying that the 22ks have become a more frequent sight on certain Dublin/Cork services these past few months? The 14:00 ex Dublin, and the 19:20 ex Cork (on Sundays at least) have been operated by MK4s for years, yet the 22k (usually the 4 carriage variant) is now the equipment of choice. Has utilisation of the MK4 fleet been reduced in recent times, or are they now being scheduled on alternative services?

yes you would be right, all while rosslare and sligo still endure 29k running on some services

end of the road

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

It's business and all transport company's do it at some point.

yeah, private bus operators cutting little used services on a route where they have a very frequent service, were not talking about that here, were talking about short trains on busy routes where the service isn't or can't be as frequent as it should, but then again when a rail company runs commuter trains on long distance routes and intercity trains on short distances then we can't be surprised that short trains on busy routes happens.

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

When GoBe cut Cork services why didn't you and others complain about fare paying passengers being lost?

well as cork isn't my area and i don't use or have much of an interest in bus services i wouldn't have known about GoBe cutting services

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

That decision was on the costs verses revenue generated.

yeah, but you can be sure that if a good crowd turn up for a service they will make sure the capacity is there unlike irish rail who don't do enough to make sure the capacity is there at all times for the services that require it.

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Take a 4 car train with 265 seats and lets say 10-15 people standing, a mix of fare paying and non far paying passengers, adding 1 extra carriage to a typical journey will costs bones of 1,000-1,500. (IE 6e per mile per coach), Now lets say 8 of the 12 standing are fare paying at most with average fares of 35 walk up prices would generate 280.

were not talking about 10 12 15 people standing, its a lot more then that on some of the busiest services

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Improvements in yield management (the 9,99 sale) will help fill empty off peak to ease peak services a little.

the busy services need extra capacity end of, irish rail need to be attracting people to the railway never mind trying to keep the current customers it has, if private bus operators want to cut services and lose small custom thats their problem, however as 1 company runs the railway they have no right to not care about custom being lost IMO

Jamie2k9

The principals are the same, yes there are higher numbers but most of the time increasing capacity is in sets or 3 or 4. The majority of people standing are only doing so for 20 minutes or so.

Increasing a 4 piece train involves adding 120 or 160 seats and no service has such numbers standing. To justify the it people would need be standing for much longer than 2 or 3 stops.

To be fair they have made big improvements with capacity since earlier in the year. As I have said before IE were to nice with capacity on commuter services between 2008 and 2013 when they shouldn't of being granted current CEO wasn't involved.

Snow Leopard

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Yes more 22's however catering on-board hasn't changed, all service have some form of catering. It's mainly peak services which are Mark 4's.

So if there are additional 22k's on Dublin/Cork, then presumably there must be MK4 sets lying idle for part of the day? If this is the case, then these 22k's are likely being scheduled on Dublin/Cork at the expense of Waterford/Sligo services, which are subsequently forced to revert to the 29k on some services?

I can't help but think that this short-sighted strategy is likely to have an adverse affect on passenger numbers over the long run.

A rail service must reliable (which, in fairness, they score relatively well on), consistent (not the case, commuter trains on intercity journeys is unacceptable), and affordable (which again, is not the case. While a premium charge for walk-up fares is understandable for yield management purposes, the differential between walk-up fares and online fares is shockingly high. €63.70 for a walk-up Dublin/Cork single is scandalous money, and no amount of online discounting can detract from that).

end of the road

Snow Leopard wrote: »

I can't help but think that this short-sighted strategy is likely to have an adverse affect on passenger numbers over the long run.

were wasting our time, to me it seems nobody relevant cares, and from my experience sligo and rosslare will be the ones to lose out when it comes to comfort and having the proper intercity trains, and if needs be waterford will be the ones to lose out capacity wise

end of the road

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

The principals are the same, yes there are higher numbers but most of the time increasing capacity is in sets or 3 or 4. The majority of people standing are only doing so for 20 minutes or so.

i don't know is it a majority, i've often stood a lot longer, a few times i've been standing the way to wexford (no word of a lie)

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Increasing a 4 piece train involves adding 120 or 160 seats and no service has such numbers standing. To justify the it people would need be standing for much longer than 2 or 3 stops.

thats IE'S fault for not having in the tender that the units came as 2 coach and that carriges could be slotted in between the 2 cars quickly in an emergency, i don't buy it can't be done, it may not be best practice with multiple units but frankly current setups with multiple units are not flexible enough where as loco hauled sets even with the exercise of shunting are when it comes to adding capacity

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

To be fair they have made big improvements with capacity since earlier in the year. As I have said before IE were to nice with capacity on commuter services between 2008 and 2013 when they shouldn't of being

they weren't to nice, the demand was there for it, and still is on some services

Jamie2k9

Snow Leopard wrote: »

So if there are additional 22k's on Dublin/Cork, then presumably there must be MK4 sets lying idle for part of the day? If this is the case, then these 22k's are likely being scheduled on Dublin/Cork at the expense of Waterford/Sligo services, which are subsequently forced to revert to the 29k on some services?

I can't help but think that this short-sighted strategy is likely to have an adverse affect on passenger numbers over the long run.

A rail service must reliable (which, in fairness, they score relatively well on), consistent (not the case, commuter trains on intercity journeys is unacceptable), and affordable (which again, is not the case. While a premium charge for walk-up fares is understandable for yield management purposes, the differential between walk-up fares and online fares is shockingly high. €63.70 for a walk-up Dublin/Cork single is scandalous money, and no amount of online discounting can detract from that).

Monday-Thursday there is more than enough 22's to operate Cork services without impacting on other routes. Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays the Mark 4 sets are in heavy use to leave 22 increase capacity on other routes.

9,99 online verses 63.70....and have you travelled on intercity routes in UK or Europe before?

i don't know is it a majority, i've often stood a lot longer, a few times i've been standing the way to wexford (no word of a lie)

There has being some cases when it's being much longer and that's unacceptable but IE have changed capacity quickly afterword's. I have saw cases of 90 minutes which isn't acceptable but standing between Newbridge and Heuston (20mins non stop) is acceptable.

thats IE'S fault for not having in the tender that the units came as 2 coach and that carriges could be slotted in between the 2 cars quickly in an emergency, i don't buy it can't be done, it may not be best practice with multiple units but frankly current setups with multiple units are not flexible enough where as loco hauled sets even with the exercise of shunting are when it comes to adding capacity

IE's fault? what operators have such a setup around the world? Most DMU's come in units and can't be chopped and changed like you suggest.

It would not be possible to do it "quickly" ever as in Heuston the trains would have be moved to the sidings and split and cleared to slot more coaches in.

they weren't to nice, the demand was there for it, and still is on some services

They were to nice, especially with DART and Dublin Commuter services.

end of the road

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Monday-Thursday there is more than enough 22's to operate Cork services without impacting on other routes. Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays the Mark 4 sets are in heavy use to leave 22 increase capacity on other routes.

so why does rosslare and sligo still have 29ks operating services? that to me means these services are being impacted on as not enough 22ks are availible to cover these routes at all times like they should because 22ks are operating cork and commuter routes.

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

There has being some cases when it's being much longer and that's unacceptable but IE have changed capacity quickly afterword's. I have saw cases of 90 minutes which isn't acceptable but standing between Newbridge and Heuston (20mins non stop) is acceptable.

they have cut capacity on some dart services that are busy while long empty trains are running around outside the busy periods, to me thats not matching capacity to demand

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

IE's fault? what operators have such a setup around the world? Most DMU's come in units and can't be chopped and changed like you suggest.

just because no operator has looked for it doesn't mean it can't be done, they are a good few train manufacturers around the world i'm sure one of them would find a way if an operator required such a system.

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

It would not be possible to do it "quickly" ever as in Heuston the trains would have be moved to the sidings and split and cleared to slot more coaches in.

it would take a lot less then shunting a loco hauled set around i should imagine, a 3 car train in 2 different platforms, front car in for example platform 1 moves away, 2 front cars of the other train in for example platform 2 move to join the back 2 cars in platform 1 and the 2 main cars left join up, it can't be done with current units so easily but i'm sure a manufacturer could come up with something if an operator required it.

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

They were to nice, especially with DART and Dublin Commuter services.

no they weren't, the demand was there for such capacity and on some services still is there.

dowlingm

Snow Leopard

That is what's happening, yes. A Mark 4 with a 22K sized passenger load loses shed loads of money. For me the answer is to find ways to put Mark 4 sized loads on the train. For IE, it is to put the Mark 4 sets in sidings and run 22s.

As for the Galway 1720 I would do a similar exercise to those I've advocated for the Enterprise - two queues to enter the platform for the train.
Queue 1 - reserved seats and commuter pass holders
Queue 2 - everyone else

The people who pay a premium or who demonstrate ongoing commitment to the service get dibs. This ensures that while capacity enhancement is being figured out you are safeguarding future revenue including upsells like reservations.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

dowlingm

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Won't know until it is tried.

Snow Leopard

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

9,99 online verses 63.70....and have you travelled on intercity routes in UK or Europe before?

The fare differential is unreasonably high. I (like many others) simply haven't the luxury of being able to plan rail travel two, three, or four days out. Much of my travel is planned at very short notice, often on the day itself, with the result that the 9.99 fares are always out of reach. But that doesn't bother me as such, as I can live with not being able to get to Cork or Limerick for €10. What bothers me is that if I rock up to the station 20 minutes prior to departure, I can expect to get horribly ripped-off.

IE cannot expect to attract the masses required to fill Mark 4's between Dublin/Cork if their walk-up fare is 270% higher than the competition (€63 on IE versus €17 on GoBus). The issue facing many people is that they are willing to pay a premium to travel by train, but only if the fare is reasonable. Why not offer a walk-up single fare for €35?

Personally, I feel a major shake-up is required. From an outsiders perspective at least, they are not making a great enough effort to cover their fixed costs on many key intercity services. It is a perishable product - when the whistle blows, each empty seat represents lost revenue. If they hope to prove to people that it really is "easier by train", why not start by offering reasonable walk-up fares?

I fail to see the relevance of comparing them against UK/Europe rail operators? The competition is much closer to home, and consists of the buses and motorways. If they are unable to compete with these other modes with their current cost structure, then a deep cost reduction programme is in order, transforming the business from top to bottom.

Jamie2k9

Snow Leopard wrote: »

The fare differential is unreasonably high. I (like many others) simply haven't the luxury of being able to plan rail travel two, three, or four days out. Much of my travel is planned at very short notice, often on the day itself, with the result that the 9.99 fares are always out of reach. But that doesn't bother me as such, as I can live with not being able to get to Cork or Limerick for €10. What bothers me is that if I rock up to the station 20 minutes prior to departure, I can expect to get horribly ripped-off.

IE cannot expect to attract the masses required to fill Mark 4's between Dublin/Cork if their walk-up fare is 270% higher than the competition (€63 on IE versus €17 on GoBus). The issue facing many people is that they are willing to pay a premium to travel by train, but only if the fare is reasonable. Why not offer a walk-up single fare for €35?

Personally, I feel a major shake-up is required. From an outsiders perspective at least, they are not making a great enough effort to cover their fixed costs on many key intercity services. It is a perishable product - when the whistle blows, each empty seat represents lost revenue. If they hope to prove to people that it really is "easier by train", why not start by offering reasonable walk-up fares?

I fail to see the relevance of comparing them against UK/Europe rail operators? The competition is much closer to home, and consists of the buses and motorways. If they are unable to compete with these other modes with their current cost structure, then a deep cost reduction programme is in order, transforming the business from top to bottom.

The Bus will always be a lot cheaper than the Train.

Lots of people know a few days before they travel and can easily get return fares form 40 euro. People who are prepared are rewarded with cheaper fares. It's cheaper to buy a single online than walking up to the station before departure.

Filling a train with cheap fares isn't the answer as costs will not be covered and it leads to major overcrowding. Attracting 100 passengers with 20 euro return fares is pointless when 50 passengers could easily be attracted paying 40 euro fares.

Jamie2k9

Irish Rail were on top forum again tonight :rolleyes:

We managed to get an apology for the overcrowding to, the first since November!

Irish Rail believe services require more capacity on regular Mondays instead of Bank holidays.

Emma do tell if the 7.10 in the morning is cut AGAIN as I suspect it might be.

Emme

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Irish Rail were on top forum again tonight :rolleyes:

We managed to get an apology for the overcrowding to, the first since November!

Irish Rail believe services require more capacity on regular Mondays instead of Bank holidays.

Emma do tell if the 7.10 in the morning is cut AGAIN as I suspect it might be.

This morning the 7.10 Waterford to Heuston comprised of 3 very overcrowded carriages. There was a scuffle getting onto the train because there were very few seats at Carlow and because some passengers who aren't frequent travelers had their belongings scattered all over the seat beside them. When a train is very short this can delay boarding significantly. Some passengers want a seat for their suitcase as well as themselves and aren't always willing to give this up even if there are 20 passengers vying for it. These are usually older passengers who wouldn't be frequent travellers. They are afraid to let their belongings out of their sight because there have been reports of robberies on the train.

I think everyone squashed in at Athy but again there were people left behind at Newbridge some of them with bikes because there was no room for bikes on the train.

I haven't heard of any robberies on the Waterford line but a friend who travels from Mullingar says that robberies sometimes happen on that line.

The train was late getting into Heuston :rolleyes:

LXFlyer

I suspect that the problem lies with trains towards Dublin being strengthened on the Bank Holiday Monday on various routes (due to the higher than usual traffic - the normal peak direction would be in the opposite direction), with the result that sets are out of place on the Tuesday morning.

Not ideal, because either way you'll end up with unhappy customers.

Jamie2k9

lxflyer wrote: »

I suspect that the problem lies with trains towards Dublin being strengthened on the Bank Holiday Monday on various routes (due to the higher than usual traffic - the normal peak direction would be in the opposite direction), with the result that sets are out of place on the Tuesday morning.

Not ideal, because either way you'll end up with unhappy customers.

Does this problem happen on any other routes? NO....if IE were customer focused then they would of provided the capacity correctly even if it meant stock movements to do it. They cut capacity yesterday not increase it either.

What Irish Rail decided to do yesterday was instead of providing at least 10 coaches which were needed for the 18.25 up and 07.10 the following morning they said sure 3 coaches will be grand for both service and split the 15.10 out of Heuston when it arrives in Waterford.

The train was late getting into Heuston

It used to be such a good service and always on time but over the last 6 months it's being late more than on time.

LXFlyer

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Does this problem happen on any other routes? NO....if IE were customer focused then they would of provided the capacity correctly even if it meant stock movements to do it. They cut capacity yesterday not increase it either.

What Irish Rail decided to do yesterday was instead of providing at least 10 coaches which were needed for the 18.25 up and 07.10 the following morning they said sure 3 coaches will be grand for both service and split the 15.10 out of Heuston when it arrives in Waterford.

It used to be such a good service and always on time but over the last 6 months it's being late more than on time.

The issue (as well you know) is that Kilkenny cannot take trains any longer than 6 coaches - that is the real problem here. That was one of the most ludicrous decisions ever taken, as it constrains operations significantly on the route. Every other route can operate with longer trains.

What was on the 18:25 from Waterford yesterday?

The only thing I would say is that the people in Newbridge do have another train 7 minutes later this morning, not ideal, but at least they have another option.

end of the road

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Does this problem happen on any other routes? NO....if IE were customer focused then they would of provided the capacity correctly even if it meant stock movements to do it. They cut capacity yesterday not increase it either.

What Irish Rail decided to do yesterday was instead of providing at least 10 coaches which were needed for the 18.25 up and 07.10 the following morning they said sure 3 coaches will be grand for both service and split the 15.10 out of Heuston when it arrives in Waterford.

remember the waterford line is only a bit above the rosslare and sligo lines, they will always lose out

end of the road

stops between kildare and dublin need to be removed from long distance trains seeing as capacity won't be there with the current fleet, there isn't any other option, the KRP should also be finished when money allows

cython

lxflyer wrote: »

The issue (as well you know) is that Kilkenny cannot take trains any longer than 6 coaches - that is the real problem here. That was one of the most ludicrous decisions ever taken, as it constrains operations significantly on the route. Every other route can operate with longer trains.

Nope. Rosslare line can't as the platforms in Enniscorthy (at the very least, it probably applies to most others on the line too) are also too short for "long" trains.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

LXFlyer

cython wrote: »

Nope. Rosslare line can't as the platforms in Enniscorthy (at the very least, it probably applies to most others on the line too) are also too short for "long" trains.

Sorry, I was referring to routes out of Heuston.

kc56

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

How would you implement that? IE staff at each of 12 doors?

The reason why Intercity trains stop at commuter stations is that there is not enough capacity or frequency of commuter services out of Heuston. Adding more commuter services would slow down intercities.

LXFlyer

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Well I would certainly like to see a recast timetable with the Kildare line stops taken out of certain peak Intercity trips.


It would be impossible to enforce a set down stop only - people would still get on.

LXFlyer

kc56 wrote: »

How would you implement that? IE staff at each of 12 doors?

The reason why Intercity trains stop at commuter stations is that there is not enough capacity or frequency of commuter services out of Heuston. Adding more commuter services would slow down intercities.

There is plenty of scope for improving the service on the Kildare line - it just needs a certain amount of recasting and using the four tracking to the full potential with overtaking where necessary.


Examples would include running peak trains to/from Hazelhatch and turning back there so that you could run Portlaoise services non-stop from Heuston to Hazelhatch and take up any customers from Parkwest, Fonthill, and Adamstown there.

foggy_lad

kc56 wrote: »

How would you implement that? IE staff at each of 12 doors?

The reason why Intercity trains stop at commuter stations is that there is not enough capacity or frequency of commuter services out of Heuston. Adding more commuter services would slow down intercities.

How about fine any passenger who boards the Waterford trains at stops from Kildare to Dublin?

All passengers must have tickets and if you get off the Waterford trains you can easily be corralled through a particular set of exit gates which can be set to refuse any tickets where the journey started in Kildare Newbridge etc. All commuter passes from these stops would also be included.