Teachers not up to it?

Hitchens

report says the standard of Maths and Irish teaching is poor

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/1104/484535-teaching-schools-irish/

gramar

that's it?

...weatherman says it's going to rain tomorrow.....

wretcheddomain

Hitchens wrote: »

report says the standard of Maths and Irish teaching is poor

English grammar could be improved as well it seems.

YFlyer

For maths I blame the over use of calculators.

shruikan2553

Can we just add more bonus points? That worked for maths right?

Amirani

YFlyer wrote: »

For maths I blame the over use of calculators.

You don't do maths do you?

YFlyer

NiallSparky wrote: »

You don't do maths do you?

PhD in chemistry.

shedweller

YFlyer wrote: »

For maths I blame the over use of calculators.

Correct as hell! My kids are doing "mental maths" in school and it seems to work well. When they go to secondary things could be different though.

BlurstMonkey

YFlyer wrote: »

PhD in chemistry.

You're not a pilot?

Greenmachine

For Maths in the LC I had an atrocious teacher, because I did not perform as well as I should have. The teacher completely lacked motivation and was poor at explaining thing, to the point of me explaining some questions to him. I don't know if this teacher was always bad at his job or was just sick of it. I think if teachers had more supports this would be less likely to happen. On the other hand the maths teacher had for the JC was brilliant, my poor performance in that instance was due to a lack of self study.

Amirani

YFlyer wrote: »

PhD in chemistry.

I presume you got plenty of use of your calculator so.

I see your point to be fair, I had wrongly assumed you were one of the "calculators are evil" crew (there was someone on here recently saying calculators shouldn't be used at third-level). I think most people will agree that there's no place for calculators at primary level. One would expect though that basic numeracy skills are well enough developed by second-level to allow the use of calculators that become necessary for more advanced topics?

Czarcasm

YFlyer wrote: »

For maths I blame the over use of calculators.

Completely agree with this tbh. Calculators should be banned in primary schools. I see so many in a homework club I'm involved with the minute they have to tax their little brains at all, they start moaning for a calculator. They aren't taught math the same way we were in school either. I'd war there a couple of weeks back with my own young lad over what we used know as "carrying" units. Now they do a thing called "renaming".

OP seems like a glass half empty kinda guy anyway. From the same report -

However the report, from the Department of Education's Chief Inspector, finds that overall standards in primary and post-primary schools are good.

Mint Aero

Well in all my years in school, 3 teachers were good only two of whom had the social skills to actually teach. Everyone else, some 20 or so teachers were either sh*te, anti social, incompetent or lazy.

Hitchens

Czarcasm wrote: »

OP seems like a glass half empty kinda guy anyway. From the same report -

have a squint at the thread title............notice the ?

AnonoBoy

Hitchens wrote: »

report says the standard of Maths and Irish teaching is poor

We've got some of the best Irish teachers in the world surely?

Catari Jaguar

Kids are stupider. All the information in the history of the world literally in their pockets on their phones and they still don't know who Anne Frank is or what Chechnya is. Teachers have some task ahead of them.

YFlyer

NiallSparky wrote: »

I presume you got plenty of use of your calculator so.

I see your point to be fair, I had wrongly assumed you were one of the "calculators are evil" crew (there was someone on here recently saying calculators shouldn't be used at third-level). I think most people will agree that there's no place for calculators at primary level. One would expect though that basic numeracy skills are well enough developed by second-level to allow the use of calculators that become necessary for more advanced topics?

I tutor in the Science Learning Centre in UL one day a week. The students would usually ask questions in relation to molecular mass, molarity and percentage yields. They would be using their calculator for the addition of two 2 digit numbers.

Tombi!

From what I remember when I was in secondary (about 8 years ago), the stuff you need to learn for higher (and even ordinary) level Irish is just... it's absurd. You need to either have an immense interest in it (as in trying to embrace yourself in it 24/7) or else be lucky and end up in an Irish school like myself.
Even then they treat it like it's bloody English. You've got your short stories, poems, book to read, etc. It's not learning it for the sake of learning, it's learning it for the sake of rote learning.

Maths just seemed to have thrown too much at me. I ended up ordinary level, though. AFAIK, the only kids who did reasonably well (say a B or better) at higher level were three... one of whom's older brother was a math teacher himself for secondary and the other two got grinds.

I don't think its the students or teachers that are the issue as a whole. Just the amount of material in maths and secondly, the fact that they treat Irish like it's English (like it's your most commonly spoken language) is the problem.

Czarcasm

Hitchens wrote: »

have a squint at the thread title............notice the ?

Yes, I noticed the "?", but the content of your post was entirely negative.

"Students not up to it!" would've been a far more accurate title IMO.

evolving_doors

And what about their summer holidays...

Tombi!

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

Kids are stupider. All the information in the history of the world literally in their pockets on their phones and they still don't know who Anne Frank is or what Chechnya is. Teachers have some task ahead of them.

Kids aren't stupider. The problem is a lot of stuff in secondary is just "learn as much as possible to copy it all down in the leaving/junior certs.
Even then I was talking to someone who was 17 and told that you cannot use Wikipedia or Google. Not "use them as sources or cite them) but "don't use them at all". Wikipedia is one of the most useful tools on the internet.

I remember I ended up using Google to help me with an essay or something. Ended up getting to Wikipedia and looked at it, looked at what Wikipedia cited and use those as sources.

A lot of teachers have no clue about the use of the internet and assume it's just another form of cheating.

Catari Jaguar

The Department of Education is poor. The inspectorate are poor. Ruairi Quinn is poor. The funding is dire. The left hand doesn't know what the right is doing in terms of newly "required" assessment/ planning. Even the payroll department are bloody useless and can't even get teachers on the correct scale. I would like a report on that useless overpaid git of a minister and his cronies. Smoke and mirrors. Blame the teachers. How original.

Catari Jaguar

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

Wikipedia is one of the most useful tools on the internet.

You cite Wiki in college essays yea? How'd that work for you...

Amirani

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

You cite Wiki in college essays yea? How'd that work for you...

That's not quite what he said. C3 on reading comprehension there.

Tombi!

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

You cite Wiki in college essays yea? How'd that work for you...

No. I used Wikipedia for, I think it was... something to do with WW2. It was the Finnish fella, Simo_Häyhä
Everyone was gonna end up doing one on the Nazis in France or Nazis against Russia so I remember reading about that fella. Looked him up on Wikipedia. Read it. Looked at what the sources said and got a leap from there.

I wouldn't try to cite Wikipedia itself as a source... unless talking about something that's about Wikipedia, like its guidelines.

byhookorbycrook

"Standards of teaching and learning were satisfactory or better in the majority of lessons inspected. Confidential Parental Surveys show very high levels of satisfaction with schools -"

See more at: http://www.education.ie/en/Press-Events/Press-Releases/2013-Press-Releases/PR13-11-04.html#sthash.aQfQLvIe.dpuf

But hey, let's all bash all the teachers.

byhookorbycrook

"Inspectors noted the lack of opportunities for primary pupils to engage in the sort of collaborative working needed for effective problem-solving. "

30 + kids in jam packed rooms, SNAs , resource teaching cut to the bone, no money to pay for things like heating without fundraising, never mind proper maths equipment. Would love to let some of these guys try their hand at it!

clairefontaine

That RTE article is a bit on the anorexic side isn't it?

No data, no scores, no charts,no tracking over time, not much to go on.

MadsL

Hitchens wrote: »

report says the standard of Maths and Irish teaching is poor

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/1104/484535-teaching-schools-irish/

Have you blamed immigrants yet?

clairefontaine

I think its interesting that it's math and Irish.

Was this applicable to both Irish and English speaking schools? The article doesnt even make that distinction. Gosh I think we should be more worried about the standards of journalism than the standards of Irish teaching.

I know a couple of people who went to bi lingual schools in the US, who either were gifted in math or had difficulty and it went unnoticed because the bilingual education masked it.

MadYaker

Don't care about Irish but id agree with the maths part. You come across a lot of science students in third level who simply don't understand basic things like standard deviation, indices, logarithmic scales, scientific notation etc.

oppenheimer1

Hitchens wrote: »

report says the standard of Maths and Irish teaching is poor

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/1104/484535-teaching-schools-irish/

We need to pay teachers more and give them more holidays.

Missyelliot2

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

"Inspectors noted the lack of opportunities for primary pupils to engage in the sort of collaborative working needed for effective problem-solving. "

30 + kids in jam packed rooms, SNAs , resource teaching cut to the bone, no money to pay for things like heating without fundraising, never mind proper maths equipment. Would love to let some of these guys try their hand at it!

Well said! My child's school is constantly fundraising and he sits in a class of 34, with 1 SNA for a child with autism. There's also a girl with Downs Syndrome, who's entitled to NO help.

I tip my hat to the teacher.....it must be hugely demoralising.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

clairefontaine

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Maybe if 2 out of the 4 1/2 hours a day in junior and senior infants wasn't spent on Irish, Religion, lunch and snacks they could do some MAAATH!!!!!

Tombi!

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

That's a bit unfair. Most of the young teachers are only temps. It's the older ones that are the issue. Hell, most of my teachers that used certain things would pay for it out of their own pocket. I think the only time any money was asked from students was when it was to do with a full class outing as a treat. Hell, one of the teachers paid for a trip to the zoo for I think 12 of us or so (bus fare and all) to do part of a biology thing.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Tombi!

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

You said it and didn't make it clear you were talking about specific ones.
You made it seem like you were on about all teachers, regardless of position, etc.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

clairefontaine

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

So when you work for RTE and have to write articles such as in the OP you can actually provide some data.

My six year old is already learning data gathering and comparison in school and could prepare something for RTE.

And so when you read articles such as on RTE you can ask.... hey.... where are the numbers and not just accept it on....faith.

Catari Jaguar

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Yea, teachers should work for free... and kids don't need snacks either.

Pensions are paid for from mandatory pension contribution, child & spouse pension and the pension levy 0.6% (steath tax) which all help keep this generations education budget afloat and more than likely won't be returned to the teachers investing in it.

Maybe if BILLIONS of Euro from our economy didn't go to bailing out banks & foreigner investors we'd actually have some money for decent schools, wages, SNAs and educational resources, hmm?

But yea... feck Religion.

kensiemac

Hi,
I read with great interest the Chief Inspector's 2010-2012 report. Overall it appears that the results are generally satisfactory. Let's take a look at primary school, since this is where students acquire basic skills, and where their scholarly fate is imprinted (or shackled). For incidental inspections the results are as follows:


English
Learning outcomes: 87 percent satisfied
Teaching approach: 86 percent satisfied

Mathematics
Learning outcomes: 87 percent satisfied
Teaching approach: 85 percent satisfied

Irish
Learning outcomes: 76 percent satisfied
Teaching approach: 80 percent satisfied

While it looks generally good, it is also a bit worrying. Let's crunch some numbers for maths.

Percent dissatisfied: 15 percent
Number of Lessons Sampled: 1303
Number of Dissatisfied Lessons = (.15 * 1303) = 195 lessons

Given that the inspections were carried out on a fifth of lessons (21.6 percent), we can there are approximately 975 less than satisfactory lessons during the sample teachers. For a knowledge economy this is quite worrying. Arguably there is a funding effect, but there is also a bad teacher effect.

clairefontaine

kensiemac wrote: »

Hi,
I read with great interest the Chief Inspector's 2010-2012 report. Overall it appears that the results are generally satisfactory. Let's take a look at primary school, since this is where students acquire basic skills, and where their scholarly fate is imprinted (or shackled). For incidental inspections the results are as follows:


English
Learning outcomes: 87 percent satisfied
Teaching approach: 86 percent satisfied

Mathematics
Learning outcomes: 87 percent satisfied
Teaching approach: 85 percent satisfied

Irish
Learning outcomes: 76 percent satisfied
Teaching approach: 80 percent satisfied

While it looks generally good, it is also a bit worrying. Let's crunch some numbers for maths.

Percent dissatisfied: 15 percent
Number of Lessons Sampled: 1303
Number of Dissatisfied Lessons = (.15 * 1303) = 195 lessons

Given that the inspections were carried out on a fifth of lessons (21.6 percent), we can there are approximately 975 less than satisfactory lessons during the sample teachers. For a knowledge economy this is quite worrying. Arguably there is a funding effect, but there is also a bad teacher effect.

Does it break down the criteria on which "satisfied" is based?

Is there a national bar by which it's measured?

Standardised tests and subjective evaluations?

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

kensiemac

clairefontaine wrote: »

Does it break down the criteria on which "satisfied" is based?

Is there a national bar by which it's measured?

Standardised tests and subjective evaluations?

Excuses, excuses, excuses...

I recall having a debate about standardized testing, and most teaching folks say it is unfair becuase of different quality levels of student etc

And a national bar is meaningless

April O Neill

YFlyer wrote: »

For maths I blame the over use of calculators.

Dunno how it is now, but when I was in school (finished in 2001), they got it just right, IMO. No calculator allowed up to JC. Calculators allowed for the LC. If you can't do manual by the time you're 15/16, you'll never be able to do it!

April O Neill

Czarcasm wrote: »

However the report, from the Department of Education's Chief Inspector, finds that overall standards in primary and post-primary schools are good. -

We should be going for excellent, no? Not merely just "good". Especially considering we have some of the best paid teachers in the world.

Missyelliot2

There will always be an element of bad teaching....fact of life - just like bad doctors/dentists/ singers etc.
But there needs to be the realisation too, that SOME parents aren't exactly doing a stellar job either. I work in a school, where a 'breakfast club' operates - for children who will not be given a breakfast at home.
It's rough on those kids and hard to motivate them - they are often hungry and tired, before the school day begins.

kensiemac

April O Neill wrote: »

We should be going for excellent, no? Not merely just "good". Especially considering we have some of the best paid teachers in the world.

Absolutely - and read the respect of my post, and you will see I am with you. My advice is that we fire those in the bottom decile; cut the pay of those below the median, and promote the top decile. The others keep their pay and conditions.

Catari Jaguar

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Schools were fantastic 5 years ago yea. There was a new (primary) curriculum introduced in 1999 that promised the moon and it was possible to administer - team teaching, small groups, active learning, collaboration, resources, one to one time, IT & whiteboards, SEN time, life skills coaching, you name it. You cut it (even marginally) and that leads to less teachers and larger classes (plus now a baby boom!), add some Croke Park hours to kill morale, extra (unnecessary to try to justify the cuts) paper work, and sadly, that curriculum implodes and honestly, most teachers are genuiney bending over backwards to make up the shortfall, it's just unrealistic.