The main thing is keeping the main thing, the main thing

blockic

AuldManKing wrote: »

Tuesday 12th

Interesting run tonight - I wanted to run 'easy' but not 'recovery' pace - so decided to do it by HR.

I've been finding that running by HR is really helping me slow down my recovery runs, once I keep it below 130 (recovery pace is 124-137).

So I set off, following yesterdays tempo, and had a figure of 145 in mind for heart rate as its in the middle of my 'aerobic' zone and have read that 75-78% HR is typical of an 'easy run' - (cant recall where I read that - but could be tergat).

I found myself in a battle between what my HR was and what my body was telling me.

My HR was staying below 140 for the 1st 3 miles and I found myself questioning if I should run faster or not as my pace at times was touching 7:20's (which is not my easy pace!!). So my pace was yo yo'ing a bit trying to hit the pace.

Only when I turned into the wind did the HR pick up to 140's. Slowed right down in the last mile to bring it back down below 130.

Overall 6.44m @ 7:51 pace (Ave HR 138 - 76%)

Had I of ran by feel, it would have been a lot slower and closer to a recovery pace/HR run.

This HR stuff is very interesting..............

Jesus, I thought you were done complicating stuff!! :rolleyes: :P

For a man who is now a great fan of easy running, you are planning plenty sessions!

AuldManKing

drquirky wrote: »

Ignore the heartrate crap and keep your easy runs sensible and your recovery runs slow ...,

blockic wrote: »

Jesus, I thought you were done complicating stuff!! :rolleyes: :P

For a man who is now a great fan of easy running, you are planning plenty sessions!

Ha! - I had hoped the HR stuff would help keep it easy - obviously I don't understand enough.

For the sessions - sure its Christmas - cant beat a good session

drquirky

AuldManKing wrote: »

Ha! - I had hoped the HR stuff would help keep it easy - obviously I don't understand enough.

For the sessions - sure its Christmas - cant beat a good session

I'm actually being serious AMK- the logs are littered w people talking about how their HR for an easy run is this or that and sticking to it and ending up injured.

Your HR measures one system only- many different factors make up training stress etc. I've said it before but most of my recovery runs are between 7:45 and 8:30 m/m while my easy runs are usually around 7-7:30 m/m. Slower than a lot of people on the logs who are nowhere near me in races. Keep in mind TRR runs his easy stuff at these paces as well lol!

My point is I'm sure if I'd worn a HRM at the height of my marathon training it might have put my "easy" pace at 6:30 or so- but then I would have ended up injured and not recovering from runs!

AuldManKing

Thanks for the elaboration Dr Q - great input - I don't understand it enough to make it part of my training - was worth an experiment last night as it was just an easy run - not something I'll be bringing into my training full time.

On the positive front - watching HR does make my recovery runs slower.

AuldManKing

Wednesday 11th Dec: 5 miles @ 8:41 per mile. Didn't venture to the PP for this one, kept it nice and handy around the estates, passed Blanch center and back through Laurel Lodge - done this about 6pm so lots of cars spewing out exhaust etc.

A not so nice 'Scene of Changery' as they say, somewhere........

Thursday 12th Dec
I had planned a 4x1m at CV pace (6:05) with 2 mins recovery, so set the watch up for this and went off on a 2 mile warm up that brought me to the PP.
During this 2 miles - I was thinking "why am I doing mile reps??" - didn't come up with a decent answer apart from;

(1) To get a different stimulus into the legs - different from easy running - "Well I could get that from strides or shorter reps or hill bursts"
(2) I'm hung up about hitting sub 30 for 5 miles in Ferrycarraig - "a poxy 5 mile race isn't the 'main thing' now is it Alan??"

So decided that following the last 5-6 days where I had a 5k & a tempo run, my body wouldn't thank me for a 4x1m 'hero' session - so I benched it and may not revisit mile reps (at this pace) again til after the spring :eek: - or until I can come up with a proper reason for doing them in the 1st place that fit with my long term goal.

Marathon training starts 1st week in Jan - I want to get to that point having a couple of 16-17 milers done, a few different length Tempo runs and some short & long hill work (that will include shorter reps).

That is the main thing!


Anyway - back to today..........

Done the 2 mile warm up and done some long & short fartlek stuff at mainly tempo pace.
Done 1 long stretch - a full loop and a bit of OS/Furze road - (2mile @ 6:20) and some shorter bursts.
1 mile warm down.


7.93 miles @ 7.22 pace

Tom Joad

So you've started talking to yourself now I see - no wonder you need multiple usernames .

On a more serious note - are you not just wrecking your own head by overthinking stuff?? Sometimes it is just as simple as:

1. put on runners,
2. head out to run,
3. Enjoy run,
4. head home.

statss

Tom Joad wrote: »

So you've started talking to yourself now I see - no wonder you need multiple usernames .

On a more serious note - are you not just wrecking your own head by overthinking stuff?? Sometimes it is just as simple as:

1. put on runners,
2. head out to run,
3. Enjoy run,
4. head home.

5. Profit?

Gavlor

AuldManKing wrote: »

Wednesday 11th Dec: 5 miles @ 8:41 per mile. Didn't venture to the PP for this one, kept it nice and handy around the estates, passed Blanch center and back through Laurel Lodge - done this about 6pm so lots of cars spewing out exhaust etc.

A not so nice 'Scene of Changery' as they say, somewhere........

Thursday 12th Dec
I had planned a 4x1m at CV pace (6:05) with 2 mins recovery, so set the watch up for this and went off on a 2 mile warm up that brought me to the PP.
During this 2 miles - I was thinking "why am I doing mile reps??" - didn't come up with a decent answer apart from;

(1) To get a different stimulus into the legs - different from easy running - "Well I could get that from strides or shorter reps or hill bursts"
(2) I'm hung up about hitting sub 30 for 5 miles in Ferrycarraig - "a poxy 5 mile race isn't the 'main thing' now is it Alan??"

So decided that following the last 5-6 days where I had a 5k & a tempo run, my body wouldn't thank me for a 4x1m 'hero' session - so I benched it and may not revisit mile reps (at this pace) again til after the spring :eek: - or until I can come up with a proper reason for doing them in the 1st place that fit with my long term goal.

Marathon training starts 1st week in Jan - I want to get to that point having a couple of 16-17 milers done, a few different length Tempo runs and some short & long hill work (that will include shorter reps).

That is the main thing!


Anyway - back to today..........

Done the 2 mile warm up and done some long & short fartlek stuff at mainly tempo pace.
Done 1 long stretch - a full loop and a bit of OS/Furze road - (2mile @ 6:20) and some shorter bursts.
1 mile warm down.


7.93 miles @ 7.22 pace

Firstly, does anybody on boards a/r actually have a full time job?!

Secondly, get your head around the sub 30. Based on your present form, it's ONLY sub 30. You'll have no problem with it.

ecoli

Tom Joad wrote: »

So you've started talking to yourself now I see - no wonder you need multiple usernames .

On a more serious note - are you not just wrecking your own head by overthinking stuff?? Sometimes it is just as simple as:

1. put on runners,
2. head out to run,
3. Enjoy run,
4. head home.

I would have to agree. It is important think out your approach and your plan but this is at the start of a training block not prior to a session.

Regards devising your own plan bit of advice I can give from making many mistakes down through the years.

1) Don't pick and choose sessions because they look like great workouts. We could all create Canova/Lydiard/Daniels/HADD/Hadley/Rubio/Pfitzinger Super plan but the fact is that it wouldn't work. You will get more about learning the why of sessions and how they fit in the coaches overall plan for the athlete. Each session you see on the internet can be a useful tool in your repertoire but these are just pieces that must fit together to make the overall puzzle

2) Don't be afraid to change the specifics of a workout as long as you are getting the right stimulus. Very rarely do my sessions on paper correlate to what is done on the day. Again this is a case of listening to your body and adapting to environment and the athletes current state. If a cruise interval session is on the cards that doesn't mean you have to hit HM pace if there is a gale force wind. Similar if you are working too hard to hold pace have confidence in yourself to cut a session short if needs be. Many coaches implement a bail out time that they have if a athlete can't hit on a rep, they are done for the day and the plug is pulled.

3) Don't ignore the mental. We often look at sessions in terms of zones to see what benefit we are getting from them and solely focus on that. Sometimes a pace can be in between "zones" yet work because it allows your body to get used to running at that pace. A good example of this I can think of is 1k reps I had planned for this weekend that I subbed out for a 5k race. Based of physiological benefit I would probably get more benefit from 8x1000m but I know that mentally I would benefit more from pushing hard when tired in the latter stages of the race.

4) Don't stick rigidly to a plan. Adapt to cope with life. If you don't feel you are recovered enough don't be afraid to take an extra day easy in between sessions.

AuldManKing

Tom Joad wrote: »

So you've started talking to yourself now I see - no wonder you need multiple usernames .

On a more serious note - are you not just wrecking your own head by overthinking stuff?? Sometimes it is just as simple as:

1. put on runners,
2. head out to run,
3. Enjoy run,
4. head home.

Sometimes I may just put TMI on Boards :pac:

nah - not wrecking my head or overthinking at all - (well not like last year anyway).
I'm not following a specific plan at the moment so kinda making it up each week - based on progressing each run.

Made the decision on todays mile reps in the space of a 20 seconds. Decision made - move on.
Probably took me longer to write it on Boards than to make the decision.

Not going down that path like last year............

I really enjoyed my run btw

ecoli

Gavlor wrote: »

Firstly, does anybody on boards a/r actually have a full time job?!

Secondly, get your head around the sub 30. Based on your present form, it's ONLY sub 30. You'll have no problem with it.

I have 2. Simple advice time management and hate kids

menoscemo

ecoli wrote: »

Many coaches implement a bail out time that they have if a athlete can't hit on a rep, they are done for the day and the plug is pulled.

This is actually excellent advice. I remember last winter doing MP runs (usually 10 miles). On two seperate occasions I couldn't seem to get anywhere near pace over the first mile or 2. Both times I pulled the plug and both times I hit the session the following day without a bother. I could never understand it, but some days you just don't seem to be firing on all cylinders

AuldManKing

thanks guys - I appreciate the replies, but I think my post came across as if I was over complicating stuff, which I wasn't.

the intent of my post was to say that I questioned the benefit of mile reps (over other more relevant stuff) and then made the decision to not do them. (But still did a cracking workout )

I'll put down on paper what my next 3 weeks will look like, leading up to my Marathon plan.

............and relaxxxxx............

menoscemo

AuldManKing wrote: »

thanks guys - I appreciate the replies, but I think my post came across as if I was over complicating stuff, which I wasn't.

the intent of my post was to say that I questioned the benefit of mile reps (over other more relevant stuff) and then made the decision to not do them. (But still did a cracking workout )

I'll put down on paper what my next 3 weeks will look like, leading up to my Marathon plan.

............and relaxxxxx............

This is why I stopped logging :pac:

Gavlor

menoscemo wrote: »

This is why I stopped logging :pac:

Yeah me too....





Nothing to do with me being a lazy f&cker

TRR

menoscemo wrote: »

This is why I stopped logging :pac:

That's not the story I heard. I heard the Internet sent you a personal message saying it was already full of crap only messing meno, I miss your log!

thewolf_ie

menoscemo wrote: »

This is why I stopped logging :pac:

AuldManKing

Thursday 12th PM - Football - 1st game in a while - despite the great and uncomplicated run that day - Jaysus I was good.


Friday13th: AM - Rubdown from Castleknocks finest. PM.6 miles at 8:46 pace. - Legs felt fairly ok after the football & rubdown.


Sunday 15th: 16.2 miles @ 7:41 pace - fairly even splits throughout +/- 10 secs. Blustery out there - glad to get it done.


50.82 miles for the week

AuldManKing

Monday 16th: Christmas stuff & family got in the way.............bah humbug.

Tuesday 17th: Based on something Ecoli said above I'm thinking strongly of discarding my made up hodge podge plan and following this.

Tonight's run: 9.79m with 3 at MP (+/- 10s).

1st 5 miles at 7:40 (Down Knockmaron hill and into PP at Parkgate street)
3 miles MP: Ave 6:38 (up Chesterfield Ave - hurt a bit )
1.8m warm down 8:15

2m walk with the dog afterwards - poor thing is getting less & less runs with me.

total: 9.79m @ 7:30 pace

menoscemo

AuldManKing wrote: »

Tuesday 17th: Based on something Ecoli said above I'm thinking strongly of discarding my made up hodge podge plan and following this.

For a man with a plan; you sure go through the plans

My 2 cents: keep it simple. Run lots of miles. Do your long run. Run fast once or twice a week. Stop thinking so much :pac:

AuldManKing

Come off it Meno - ahh Jaysus - I really really hope you are taking the pi$$.

Gavlor

menoscemo wrote: »

For a man with a plan; you sure go through the plans

My 2 cents: keep it simple. Run lots of miles. Do your long run. Run fast once or twice a week. Stop thinking so much :pac:

Agreed. But that plan appears to be fairly simple in technical terms relative to some of the plans I've seen!

A, is it just a proper structure that you are looking for??

menoscemo

AuldManKing wrote: »

Come off it Meno - ahh Jaysus - I really really hope you are taking the pi$$.

ThebitterLemon

As a matter of interest AMK, why did you pick that particular plan?

You seem in good shape (for an auld lad) to me to hit your target and I reckon that if you followed any reasonable structured plan and stayed injury free you'd be pretty confident of doing it

Tb

AuldManKing

Gavlor wrote: »

Agreed. But that plan appears to be fairly simple in technical terms relative to some of the plans I've seen!

A, is it just a proper structure that you are looking for??

Thanks Gavlor

nope - I had 1 plan, was nosing around the internet on LetsRun.com and came across the BAA plan.
Hadn't heard of it before but liked the structure, the Marathon paced sessions, the steady MLR's and the 6 long runs of 20 miles or over.
Music to my ears.

Its not complicating anything - its not overthinking, its not anything.
Just a plan that I happen to like and thought I'd share it as its not very common.

Come on lads - lets stop with the overthinking crap.

menoscemo

AuldManKing wrote: »

Thanks Gavlor

nope - I had 1 plan, was nosing around the internet on LetsRun.com and came across the BAA plan.
Hadn't heard of it before but liked the structure, the Marathon paced sessions, the steady MLR's and the 6 long runs of 20 miles or over.
Music to my ears.

Its not complicating anything - its not overthinking, its not anything.
Just a plan that I happen to like and thought I'd share it as its not very common.

Come on lads - lets stop with the overthinking crap.

I'm sure it's a lovely plan, tbh I hadn't looked at it when I made my comment. Just commit to it and stick to it.
TBH I agree 100% with TbL any kind of well structured plan (even my mara plan ) and you will go sub 3 (barring injury etc); you are already in good shape and it'll be no bother to you...

pconn062

There's also another great phrase that gets thrown around on letsrun a lot "just run baby!". (I kid, I kid, I swear I'm only joking! :pac:).

Looks like an interesting plan, thanks for sharing (would it work for a 1500m??).

AuldManKing

ThebitterLemon wrote: »

As a matter of interest AMK, why did you pick that particular plan?

Tb

I tried P&D last year but found the back to back MLR's very tough.

I developed my own marathon plan based on some of Tergats (former poster) posts, but after reading some of what Ecoli said about not picking and choosing runs and having progression - I decided to not use the makey uppy plan.

Found the BAA plan and liked it as it had a lot of what I wanted and more importantly it seems to allow more recovery than some of the other plans I've seen.

Just though I'd share it with ye all...........

AuldManKing

menoscemo wrote: »

I'm sure it's a lovely plan, tbh I hadn't looked at it when I made my comment. Just commit to it and stick to it.
TBH I agree 100% with TbL any kind of well structured plan (even my mara plan ) and you will go sub 3 (barring injury etc); you are already in good shape and it'll be no bother to you...

Thanks Meno - I got tarred a lot last year with the overthinking stuff - sometimes rightly so, other times its a factor of me putting too much stuff up here - but its a forum for advice isn't it as well as a log for your runs??

I agree with you all that any well structured plan would work - but I wasn't following a well structured plan.

That's my plan now - record the date and someone can open a book for when AMK changes his marathon plan

Gavlor

AuldManKing wrote: »

Thanks Gavlor

nope - I had 1 plan, was nosing around the internet on LetsRun.com and came across the BAA plan.
Hadn't heard of it before but liked the structure, the Marathon paced sessions, the steady MLR's and the 6 long runs of 20 miles or over.
Music to my ears.

Its not complicating anything - its not overthinking, its not anything.
Just a plan that I happen to like and thought I'd share it as its not very common.

Come on lads - lets stop with the overthinking crap.

Thanks for sharing, I like the plan. Nice and straight forward.

Just to throw a warning shot to you though, be careful not to peak to soon. You're flying at the moment with some serious "marathon" type sessions. Remember the main thing is not until 6th of april!

menoscemo

AuldManKing wrote: »

Thanks Meno - I got tarred a lot last year with the overthinking stuff - sometimes rightly so, other times its a factor of me putting too much stuff up here - but its a forum for advice isn't it as well as a log for your runs??

I agree with you all that any well structured plan would work - but I wasn't following a well structured plan.

That's my plan now - record the date and someone can open a book for when AMK changes his marathon plan

Haha I just think you seem to change ideas and plans more often than most.

You can read loads of stuff and loads of plans but all good Marathon plans come down to a few simple premises: Run lots of miles; mostly easy some hard. Mileage and sessions follow some progression (barring the odd stepback week) like a good movie plot everything has a reason. The closer you get to the goal race the more specific you get (i.e. More MP miles). If you follow those principles you can't really go far wrong.

I tell you what...You marathon is 1 week before mine right? Lets say I post you my plan 1 week in advance. That way I can read all about it on here and learn from my your mistakes

AuldManKing

menoscemo wrote: »

I tell you what...You marathon is 1 week before mine right? Lets say I post you my plan 1 week in advance. That way I can read all about it on here and learn from my your mistakes

that's just your sneaky way of getting me to change plans already. what price you get??

statss

menoscemo wrote: »

I tell you what...You marathon is 1 week before mine right? Lets say I post you my plan 1 week in advance. That way I can read all about it on here and learn from my your mistakes

as I said at the beers....be great if you reactivated your log for this London attempt....

menoscemo

statss wrote: »

as I said at the beers....be great if you reactivated your log for this London attempt....

Nah, I could never put up with the criticism and I would never listen to any advice anyway. I prefer just criticising AMK instead

TRR

I can't believe I'm writing this in your log RK AMK but that looks like a straightforward, solid and reliable plan. Good luck and don't overcook!

theboyblunder

+1 looks sensible. Id just do what it says on every day and you'll be very fit. Good luck!

belcarra

AuldManKing wrote: »

Based on something Ecoli said above I'm thinking strongly of discarding my made up hodge podge plan and following this.

That looks like a pretty good & easy-to-follow plan.
I like the way there are Intervals every week with the MLR & Tempo alternating most weeks. I feel I overlooked the faster stuff for most of this year so was going to change to Daniels from P&D to zone in on this a bit more but am seriously tempted by this plan instead.
Only issues would be to see how I could throw in a slow 50km in Feb and a slow Barca marathon in March. Manchester is still in my crosshairs for a PB attempt too...

belcarra

menoscemo wrote: »

Nah, I could never put up with the criticism and I would never listen to any advice anyway. I prefer just criticising AMK instead

Sure you're not overthinking things yourself there Meno??;)

Cleanman

Be a lot easier if you just joined a club.....just sayin'

menoscemo

belcarra wrote: »

Sure you're not overthinking things yourself there Meno??;)

I might be, but I'll keep it to myself

TRR

Cleanman wrote: »

Be a lot easier if you just joined a club.....just sayin'

nobody would have him

digger2d2

Cleanman wrote: »

Be a lot easier if you just joined a club.....just sayin'

TRR wrote: »

nobody would have him

Tallaght might... He looks quite like most of the female members :eek:;)

drquirky

digger2d2 wrote: »

Tallaght might... He looks quite like most of the female members :eek:;)

All of whom you wouldn't have a hope in hell with!

digger2d2

drquirky wrote: »

All of whom you wouldn't have a hope in hell with!

I take that as a compliment dude

belcarra

belcarra wrote: »

That looks like a pretty good & easy-to-follow plan.
I like the way there are Intervals every week with the MLR & Tempo alternating most weeks. I feel I overlooked the faster stuff for most of this year so was going to change to Daniels from P&D to zone in on this a bit more but am seriously tempted by this plan instead.
Only issues would be to see how I could throw in a slow 50km in Feb and a slow Barca marathon in March. Manchester is still in my crosshairs for a PB attempt too...

Actually AMK/Ecoli, I notice there is no LT training in that plan.
Instead there is 'Marathon Tempo' training which more or less equates with MP.
Any thoughts on whether this will be a loss in the context of the overall programme?

AuldManKing

belcarra wrote: »

Actually AMK/Ecoli, I notice there is no LT training in that plan.

that's why its appealing :P

belcarra

AuldManKing wrote: »

that's why its appealing :P

No short-cuts!
...or is there?

ecoli

belcarra wrote: »

Actually AMK/Ecoli, I notice there is no LT training in that plan.
Instead there is 'Marathon Tempo' training which more or less equates with MP.
Any thoughts on whether this will be a loss in the context of the overall programme?

Not my idea as first time I am seeing this plan:D However it does look fairly solid outline and definitely along the lines of marathon running in the US where by they are generally coming from great speed to work on endurance (which in a way I would reckon would be a good approach for AMK to follow)

With regards LT I think we only focus on the high end AnT value as being the Golden marker however MP is in fact Lactate threshold training also but more at the lower value (AeT or Aerobic Threshold). This is the point at which the body starts anaerobic energy pathways start to kick in causing you to start to burn Glycogen.

So to answer your question there is in fact LT training there and the plan seems to aim to focus on getting the body more efficient in the later stages of the race. Like most plans there is no right or wrong answer but rather different ways to skin a cat.

Normally I do see LT training being approached at both the high end and low end however I have seen people be successful on just the low end in the past

AuldManKing

Thanks ecoli - the pace descriptors call out MP +/- 10s as marathon Tempo - but they also stipulate 'no faster' than that.
This fits in to what you are saying.

My intention was to try to hit the lower end of this (MP-10s) in order to stimulate more of the 'typical' LT sessions.
Is it much of a muchness in doing this??

ecoli

AuldManKing wrote: »

Thanks ecoli - the pace descriptors call out MP +/- 10s as marathon Tempo - but they also stipulate 'no faster' than that.
This fits in to what you are saying.

My intention was to try to hit the lower end of this (MP-10s) in order to stimulate more of the 'typical' LT sessions.
Is it much of a muchness in doing this??

I would imagine I would say no harm in doing this every 2-3 weeks but wouldn't do it on a consistent basis as you want some specificity mentally for marathon pace come race day also.