Right to shoot?

duckman!!

Ok, so me and my brother went to a small village where a farmer gave us permission 2 shoot pheasant on his land, when we arrived we were greeted by the local Garda who looked for our licences and asked where we were shooting and we told him, he said there's a local gun club in the area but should be fine because we were going shooting on private land. When we started driving we were stoped by a man standing beside the Garda and he said we can't shoot anywhere here because it's there gun club area and even though it's private land you have to get permission of the gun club!!! We rang the farmer and he never gave anyone but us permission to shoot his lands but the Garda took the gun clubs side? Now what I want to no is can the gun club stop us shooting on lands they don't even have permission on????

Rho b

No. The gun club must have the landowners permission. They cannot designate land as "gun club area" without said permission.

micko123

As long as the farmer has retained his shooting rights along with the ownership of his land he can invite whoever he likes to shoot his property.

Gun clubs often forget that their shooting is dependant on farmer's goodwill. You and your friend have legally held shotguns as confirmed by the local Garda. You have the same right to shoot there as the locals. Don't be bullied!

Snakezilla

Its down to the farmer. I can see why the gun club may not want non members shooting the land if they're paying for and releasing birds, but if you have permission from the land owner thats all you need

EPointer=Birdss

I always struggle with the ethics in this one & won't give the moral answer but rather the honest 1. You have every legal right to shoot there.

The question is; Why are the club waiting for you with the Guards & is this land surrounded or bordered by a club?

If the answer to the second half of the question is Yes which I'm guessing it is based on their actions - In your shoes I would ask myself is it right not legal, to shoot grounds where the birds present are likely there due to the work & expense of others?

To reiterate I don't question the legal right.

Cass

As i've mentioned before sporting rights are clearly set out:

• If the land owner works the land and maintains sporting rights then no one may enter the lands with his/her permission.
• If the land owner has leased out the land the person leasing the land can only give permission to another party if the contract/lease agreement specifically states the person leasing the land gets sporting rights with the lease otherwise the sporting rights stay with the land owner, and the person leasing MAY NOT give permission to shot the lands.

With that in mind:

1. If the gun club has sporting rights from the landowner they can control who shoots on the land.
2. If they don't have sporting rights, and you have permission from the land owner also then they have no legal right to stop you.
3. If they the gun club have sporting rights (as they think) from a person leasing the land from the land owner and that person (the leaser) did not specify in the lease that they wanted the sporting rights then the permission the leaser gives to the gun club has no merit and is moot which once again leaves the decision to the land owner.
4. If the club have no permissions/right at all then it's case closed and they have no argument.

So based on what you are saying they have no right to demand you leave the land.

However as Epointer touched on there is the issue, which has been raised here a few times, about the ethics of shooting land that a gun club has spent a lot of money and time on. In terms of management, birds, etc.

My own personal thoughts are if you had permission before the gun club was there then they have no argument. My club was only set up (after a 30 year break) and we made allowances for those that had individual permissions for the same land the club shot. We offered membership to them, and those that did not join, well we had no legal right to stop them, and knew they would shoot the land so we had to accept it.

However if you come along after the gun club, and shoot the birds they breed and release then perhaps some sort of discussion with them might be in order. I understand these things can be heated and it's not always possible to come to an agreement, but it cannot hurt.

Lastly if the club has no rights to the land, you do, and they are moaning because you shoot birds they release that come onto your permissions then that's tough. Again my club is surrounded by 7 other clubs. Birds travel between all club lands and if that happens then we just live with it. Some years we loose more to other club grounds than might stay or that might travel from their lands to ours. Nothing can really be done about it.

duckman!!

i thought i was right!!
also the birds in this area are wild birds, not released!!
i was talking to someone after this and they told me that a few years ago
lads came in and shot s**t loads of pheasant and left them there, and
this is why they dont want anyone shooting other them themselves.

but i want to know 1 more thing...... do you have to register a gun club before you
can enforce laws such as having to get there permission not the land owners, before shooting on THERE lands,
because im pretty sure there not a real club and they just tell people they are!!

charlie10

if u have insurance with the likes of the ifa and land owners permission well the gun club has no right to tell u where u can or cant once u have permission thats all that counts but morally i suppose clubs see it as poaching to a certain degree i would think

aaakev

charlie10 wrote: »

if u have insurance with the likes of the ifa and land owners permission well the gun club has no right to tell u where u can or cant once u have permission thats all that counts but morally i suppose clubs see it as poaching to a certain degree i would think

Altho its best practice having Insurance is irrelevant in this case

charlie10

just saying that since he is not in the club ,that having insurance will give the land owner no excuse to refuse him in,and incase the club would tell land owner he is not insured thats all. is it true that if u have independant insurance with the likes of ifa or equal that u cant use this insurance in a club affiliated with the nargc which is nearly every club. and will still need to pay into compensation fund after if u decide to join a club

Cass

charlie10 wrote: »

just saying that since he is not in the club ,that having insurance will give the land owner no excuse to refuse him in,and incase the club would tell land owner he is not insured thats all.

The thingg is, for this scenario only, that the cliub would not know if the person is insured, and when it comes to this case permission is the key point and not insurance, but i get your point.

is it true that if u have independant insurance with the likes of ifa or equal that u cant use this insurance in a club affiliated with the nargc which is nearly every club. and will still need to pay into compensation fund after if u decide to join a club

If you join a club that are in the NARGC you pay your dues which includes a payment to the NARGC compensation fund. Whether this effects other, secondary insurance, is unknown. Down to the company providing the insurance, but one thing is sure you will not be able to claim of both for the one incident, and possibly may loose all cover if they do not allow it.

However i'm not sure how independent/secondary insurance is required if you are in a club.

mikeyboo

As said already as long as the farmer has not given the shooting rights to the club and ye have permission to shoot work away noting the club can do. Here this at a. Nargc meeting few years ago.

duckman!!

Cass wrote: »

As i've mentioned before sporting rights are clearly set out:

• If the land owner works the land and maintains sporting rights then no one may enter the lands with his/her permission.
• If the land owner has leased out the land the person leasing the land can only give permission to another party if the contract/lease agreement specifically states the person leasing the land gets sporting rights with the lease otherwise the sporting rights stay with the land owner, and the person leasing MAY NOT give permission to shot the lands.

With that in mind:

1. If the gun club has sporting rights from the landowner they can control who shoots on the land.
2. If they don't have sporting rights, and you have permission from the land owner also then they have no legal right to stop you.
3. If they the gun club have sporting rights (as they think) from a person leasing the land from the land owner and that person (the leaser) did not specify in the lease that they wanted the sporting rights then the permission the leaser gives to the gun club has no merit and is moot which once again leaves the decision to the land owner.
4. If the club have no permissions/right at all then it's case closed and they have no argument.

So based on what you are saying they have no right to demand you leave the land.

Where can I get a printable copy of the sporting rights?

Rho b

I don't know about sporting rights but I would have thought that now days it has more to do with trespass. If a landowner gives you written permission to enter their land then they are waving their rights to claim trespass. Likewise if you do not have written permission then you are trespassing, in your case this would apply to the local gun club guys that stopped you, if they were to enter the farmers land they would be trespassing.
I can understand the annoyance that gun clubs have over non members shooting birds (that they purchased & reared) on lands not designated by the gun club. However as a landowner I can also understand why some landowners do not allow gun clubs to designate their land.

td5

What is it about Pheasants that seems to bring the the worst out in some people ? A few years back friends of mine decided to start a small pheasant shoot for themselves. Did everything right got about 500 acres signed up[ No Gun Club in this area] I should point out. All went well until about a month before season opened. Then there was an influx of two legged vermin snooping around the roads. Knocking on doors trying to find a way to get at these guys birds !!!! Sportsmen I think not .

arrowloopboy

It never ceases to amaze me how good people that don't own any land are at dividing up shooting rights:rolleyes:
Bit like the socialist ,I have nothing,and i'm going to share it with everyone(or not as the case may be).
In my area theres quite alot of 2 legged vermin driving around at the minute,they spot a cock on a stubble,pull in their van run up flush/shoot it and carry on to the next field.
In fairness thougt,they wouldn't be used to walking in fields,they'd be more used to streets:rolleyes:

td5

+ 1 on last post

rowa

arrowloopboy wrote: »

In fairness thougt,they wouldn't be used to walking in fields,they'd be more used to streets:rolleyes:

Don't get your point.

arrowloopboy

Have a think about it,i'm been carefull:D.

IrishGuard

Hi guys, was just woundering what would your rights be if you were a member of a gun club that were giving all the shooting rights in a a very large area, the rights were originally owned by an estate and given to the club, even though the land is owned by loads of different farmers they dont own the shooting rights. Would you legally be allowed to enter and shoot the lands without asking the land owner or would you require permission? Or would you just be required to let them know you or the other club members are shooting it? What are the club member entitlements to shoot?

Rho b

I remember my grandfather telling me as a young one something about the Land Commission (allocation of land) and a 10 year rule (I think) dating back to the foundation of the State.
I am sure there are people on this site who have more knowledge of such matters or you could contact the NARGC with the relevant details.

Cass

duckman!! wrote: »

Where can I get a printable copy of the sporting rights?

Not sure.

It is usually part of an agreement when dealing in leases, sales, etc. Not sure if there are a set list of guidelines/rules/laws as it may differ from case to case.

IrishGuard wrote: »

Hi guys, was just woundering what would your rights be if you were a member of a gun club that were giving all the shooting rights in a a very large area, the rights were originally owned by an estate and given to the club, even though the land is owned by loads of different farmers they dont own the shooting rights.

Bear with me here it's a little complicated.

The land was originally owned/part of an estate. The sporting rights were given to the club. The land was then sold to farmers who now own the land, but not the sporting rights. Is that about right?

If so then the first, and possibly most important, question is who has the sporting rights IN WRITING. Saying you do is not good enough as it's a contract and verbal ones are not worth the paper they are written on.

There have been cases where sporting right were retained even though the land sold, and when the sporting right holder exercised their rights they lost. Cannot think of the specific cases off hand.

Would you legally be allowed to enter and shoot the lands without asking the land owner or would you require permission?

If the estate still retains the sporting rights, even though they sold the land then they give permission for shooting. So if they gave it you have it. If the land sale included the sporting rights then the permission from the estate is null and void, and new permission must be sought from the new land owners.

Or would you just be required to let them know you or the other club members are shooting it?

The issue of sporting rights is a messy one, and in such a case i'd be approaching the new land owner and seeking a renewal of the permission. Whether he has the law on his side (regarding the sporting rights) it could turn into a messy court case regarding trespass, etc.

What are the club member entitlements to shoot?

Whatever lands are club lands. You should have been provided with a map of the club grounds. We give it to all our members.


Remember that sporting rights are not exclusive unless a contract has been signed and that contract states you have exclusive rights. Otherwise the farmer/land owner could give the sporting rights to numerous people and there is nothing can be done about it.


I must stress i am not a legal expert, and definitely not regarding land ownership & sporting rights. In my opinion it's always best approach the land owner, and seek permission. If you know who is working the farm (as in someone leasing the land) ask them who owns it and would they have an issue with you shooting it.


Some sporting rights are still owned by estates/companies in England from the days of lords, etc. This is why it can get messy.

IrishGuard

From what I understand the sporting rights were giving to the club in writing by the estate owner

Cass

Then as said above unless they were part of the sale agreed with the new owners you still have them.

I would urge common sense though. Approach the new owners, explain the situation and talk. Don;t go in half cocked and try to exercise some sort of right because as said in cases previously the land owner has won in court against the people claiming to have sporting rights.

Rho b

IrishGuard wrote: »

From what I understand the sporting rights were giving to the club in writing by the estate owner

When/What year were the sporting rights given to the club in writing? The only reason that I ask is if the farmers (who now own the land) either purchased fully or were granted the land from the Land Commission then I think you may need to be careful.

tomtucker81

As cass stated himself, hes not a legal expert, me neither, but I would imagine the initial sporting rights were between the estate and the gun club. I would treat this as a type of contract.

as the estate is sold on, one of the parties to the contract is now gone. So can the contract(shooting rights in this case) still exist? I would imagine not.

I would check for the rights in writing with the gun club, and they should check these with the new landowners to ensure they still have rights.(if you follow me!)

No point in being challenged by a landowner and finding you have no permission to be there.

Rho b

I should have added that I too have no legal experience. However after reading OP I had a look at the Irish Statue Book regarding shooting/hunting rights.
I am not against gun clubs. I think they do excellent work in maintaining wildlife habitats and are essential educators for people applying for their first gun license. However, as a landowner, I did have a negative experience with one many years ago which is why I reserve the right to choose who I give permissions to.

snipe02

IrishGuard wrote: »

Hi guys, was just woundering what would your rights be if you were a member of a gun club that were giving all the shooting rights in a a very large area, the rights were originally owned by an estate and given to the club, even though the land is owned by loads of different farmers they dont own the shooting rights. Would you legally be allowed to enter and shoot the lands without asking the land owner or would you require permission? Or would you just be required to let them know you or the other club members are shooting it? What are the club member entitlements to shoot?

you would need access rights I thjnk ye have the sporting ye just need access to the land through farmers permission unless an agreement was signed on sale of the land to the farmers retaining the access rights with the sporting rights meaning you would just have to inform them of your presence ,,,,, you really need to get a solicitor on to this one