Track World Cup Manchester

Beasty

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

Does this also apply for the World Championships? Is it not just nations?

Only national teams are allowed in the World Championships, although qualification is via the World Cup events (which means Irvine is already pretty much guaranteed a place in Cali in the points race)

Lusk_Doyle

So for a world cup, GB and Wales and Scotland can all compete as individual teams but for the world champs it's just GB, right? This really benefits the development of riders for GB.

Beasty

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

So for a world cup, GB and Wales and Scotland can all compete as individual teams but for the world champs it's just GB, right? This really benefits the development of riders for GB.

... and Australia and anyone else that wants to establish a trade team. In fact there was (possibly still is) a Sky trade track team (for which the likes of Hoy and Pendleton rode, and Martyn Irvine guested for at one "Revolution" event). Basically they are looking for the best riders to compete in these events, which makes them more likely to be a commercial success.

"Wales" and "Scotland" are considered trade teams AFAIK (and previously Cunga competed as an Irish trade team). When it comes to the Worlds I'm pretty sure it's one rider per country in the bunch events, with the Olympics restricting it to one rider per country for all events

Lusk_Doyle

Beasty wrote: »

... and Australia and anyone else that wants to establish a trade team. In fact there was (possibly still is) a Sky trade track team (for which the likes of Hoy and Pendleton rode, and Martyn Irvine guested for at one "Revolution" event). Basically they are looking for the best riders to compete in these events, which makes them more likely to be a commercial success.

"Wales" and "Scotland" are considered trade teams AFAIK (and previously Cunga competed as an Irish trade team). When it comes to the Worlds I'm pretty sure it's one rider per country in the bunch events, with the Olympics restricting it to one rider per country for all events

GB being one country for the sake of clarity at the worlds as opposed to three with northern Ireland being included also, so four in one as it were.

Lusk_Doyle

Beasty wrote: »

"Wales" and "Scotland"

Ha ha. Spoken like a typical "Englishman"!

Beasty

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

GB being one country for the sake of clarity at the worlds as opposed to three with northern Ireland being included also, so four in one as it were.

Northern Irish riders (such as Martyn Irvine) can declare for GBR or Ireland

For the Worlds and Olympics there are 2 options - GBR or IRL.

Then for the Commonwealth Games there are ENG, SCO, WAL and NI. Martyn qualifies for NI (and gained a medal for them in Delhi).

Cav, of course, will ride for IOM at the Commonwealths (as will the Kennaughs).

Not sure who qualifies for Guernsey - probably Matt Le Tissier:pac:

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

Ha ha. Spoken like a typical "Englishman"!

The quotes were there simply because they are trade teams - they are not national teams in the usual sense (and indeed the "Welsh" team included one rider who used to consider herself "Irish"!)

Harrybelafonte

The Crunch wrote: »

I understand the maths and believe parity is vital but I reckon they should have ditched the keirin and kept the pursuit.
The keirin is a bit of a johnny-come-lately event that isn't even as much craic as it used to be when it was a full contact sport. The pursuit is track racing at it's purest.

Completely disagree. Though I enjoy the pursuit, the Keirin is more fun to watch and race. Pursuit after pursuit eventually gets a little boring.

Beasty

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

Completely disagree. Though I enjoy the pursuit, the Keirin is more fun to watch and race. Pursuit after pursuit eventually gets a little boring.

I think this highlights one of the issues with the Olympic programme. Basically it's a showcase for the sport and there will always be a desire to maximise spectator and viewer interest. That ultimately requires maximum "action" that will be of interest to more casual observers. Hence although the IP is the sport at its purest, many people (and I am certainly not one of them) don't want to sit through 90 minutes of qualification with just 2 riders on the opposite sides of the track line-lapping.

The Omnium does include an IP, but they do that at the start of the second day when there's probably less spectators and in the case of these World Cup events no live TV coverage. The general "all-action" nature of the Omnium does make it very "spectator-friendly" - the ideal event to fill in the gaps between the other finals

Harrybelafonte

I think we should also point out that Andy Tenant who was part of the GB Team Pursuit that won gold also raced in Sundrive during the International GP this July.

rosscollins 1988

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

I think we should also point out that Andy Tenant who was part of the GB Team Pursuit that won gold also raced in Sundrive during the International GP this July.

As well as katie archibold who took a few medals (and a european championship in tp the other week). There was a former junior world champion that eoin mullen beat (but stickybottle seems to ignore this win and only refers to his victory in aigle). A few weeks later there was a guy riding around with a rainbow skinsuit as well.

Probably not enough respect for the quality of race programmes that sundrive host

Beasty

rosscollins 1988 wrote: »

Probably not enough respect for the quality of race programmes that sundrive host

That International event was way ahead of previous years in terms of the quality of international teams entered

Going forward it will need to be of similar if not better standard - not only are UCI points available but it's going to be a condition of entry into World Cup events (which provide the route for qualification for World championships) that nations must put on at least one such event every year (in the case of Ireland I guess weather-permitting, at least for now)

The Crunch

I actually love the Omnium. Way more than Martyn Irvine, I expect, but then I don't have to ride it!
I think the devil is the most entertaining single bike race on the programme, especially if you don't know much about the competitors.
I understand the instant gratification requirements of commercial interests. Perhaps these should be resisted at times.
The pursuit is pure bike racing. Those that don't understand that should be educated in that fact.
No one would invent test cricket today but that doesn't mean it should be abandoned for twenty 20 just because it doesn't fit some bean counter's template of what produces a bottom line.
We throw away out heritage at our peril. The key is to properly promote the sport that we have now, not perform radical surgery on a whim every few years.

Beasty wrote: »

I think this highlights one of the issues with the Olympic programme. Basically it's a showcase for the sport and there will always be a desire to maximise spectator and viewer interest. That ultimately requires maximum "action" that will be of interest to more casual observers. Hence although the IP is the sport at its purest, many people (and I am certainly not one of them) don't want to sit through 90 minutes of qualification with just 2 riders on the opposite sides of the track line-lapping.

The Omnium does include an IP, but they do that at the start of the second day when there's probably less spectators and in the case of these World Cup events no live TV coverage. The general "all-action" nature of the Omnium does make it very "spectator-friendly" - the ideal event to fill in the gaps between the other finals

Beasty

Don't disagree at all The Crunch, but at Olympic level unfortunately many sports are competing as much to stay in and need to maximise their exposure opportunities

Fortunately the World Championships have retained the classic disciplines, but even some of the World Cups are shedding events (it would appear in rotation based on last season) in order to pack stuff into the 3 days allocated

Harrybelafonte

The Crunch wrote: »

I actually love the Omnium. Way more than Martyn Irvine, I expect, but then I don't have to ride it!
I think the devil is the most entertaining single bike race on the programme, especially if you don't know much about the competitors.
I understand the instant gratification requirements of commercial interests. Perhaps these should be resisted at times.
The pursuit is pure bike racing. Those that don't understand that should be educated in that fact.
No one would invent test cricket today but that doesn't mean it should be abandoned for twenty 20 just because it doesn't fit some bean counter's template of what produces a bottom line.
We throw away out heritage at our peril. The key is to properly promote the sport that we have now, not perform radical surgery on a whim every few years.

I think that's a little patronising. I love the pursuit, I love (might be too strong a word) racing it and I love watching it, but as I said I can only watch so many in a row before boredom sets in, so those who aren't au fait with the race or just aren't huge fans of track cannot be blamed for not exactly being enthralled with it (though they do seem to dig team pursuit more).

"Pure bike racing"? Sure, it's been around for about 70 years, but defining anything in cycling as "pure" is a little retrogressive I think.

The Crunch

Thought I might cop one for that! I'd hate that to be seen as patronising. I just think that because some sporting disciplines need a greater investment of knowledge to be really enjoyed doesn't mean they should be abandoned.
I'm not really a cricket fan but I'm sure the analogy works. It's a complicated sport and the more you know about it, the better you will enjoy it. Soccer is probably more accessible to the new fan and can be enjoyed on more levels.
The IP and the Keirin contrast in a similar manner. I think the IP was dropped from the Olympic programme a little hastily...

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

I think that's a little patronising. I love the pursuit, I love (might be too strong a word) racing it and I love watching it, but as I said I can only watch so many in a row before boredom sets in, so those who aren't au fait with the race or just aren't huge fans of track cannot be blamed for not exactly being enthralled with it (though they do seem to dig team pursuit more).

"Pure bike racing"? Sure, it's been around for about 70 years, but defining anything in cycling as "pure" is a little retrogressive I think.

RobFowl

The Crunch wrote: »

Thought I might cop one for that! I'd hate that to be seen as patronising. I just think that because some sporting disciplines need a greater investment of knowledge to be really enjoyed doesn't mean they should be abandoned.
I'm not really a cricket fan but I'm sure the analogy works. It's a complicated sport and the more you know about it, the better you will enjoy it. Soccer is probably more accessible to the new fan and can be enjoyed on more levels.
The IP and the Keirin contrast in a similar manner. I think the IP was dropped from the Olympic programme a little hastily...

I love the pursuit too. Cycling at it's most basic yet possibly hardest.

It's a crying shame that the present crop of pursuiters can't compete for Gold against each other. Imagine an Olympics with Wiggins, Phinney, Bobridge, Tennant, Irvine et all all going head to head.

Harrybelafonte

Just to be clear, I agree that it should not have been dropped and would wonder about the Keirin's place there instead, but these things are always chosen for strange reasons, to me anyway. I still love the Keirin. Correct me if I'm wrong but the Devil was always just a fun race on the track, thrown in at the end of other races for a laugh and now it's a top level event. Y'know, is the Madison an Olympic event? Derny racing or even better Steyer/Stayer races? Win and Out etc.

As regards you point re soccer and other sports, I'd argue that all bike racing at top level as with other sports is about entertainment and velodrome racing from its infancy has been about giving people something to watch, even better than road racing there's a captive audience. Olympic and World Champ races are a completely different beast to Six Day Races and Keirin in Japan. They're all about entertaining and gambling and instant gratification.

niceonetom

I think they were dead right to get rid of that boring IP thing. Dull as. Oooh let's all watch people go round in circles just so we can determine who has the speed, endurance and tenacity to prove themselves the greatest physical athlete. Snooze. The keirin is waaay more entertaining. Yer man on the little motorbike is gas and there's sometimes crashes and stuff.

In fact I think track cycling has led the way in this. The same innovative approach could be applied in other sports because sport is NOT about the competitors or about "speed" or "strength" or "talent" or any of that load. It's about us, the people watching. Entertainment! With this in mind I think it's high time every sport adopted the UCI's model of replacing fuddy-duddy old 'pure' events with stuff that's way more entertaining, ideally from Japan.

Who wants to watch the 10,000m running? No one. That's who. Replace that with Takeshi's Castle and I guarantee better viewing figures. Sure, Mo Farah will have to find something else to do but whatevs.

So come on. Keirin is only the first step. Really we should all be campaigning to make Total-Wipeout an Olympic event. It'll be mega.

Harrybelafonte

Fair enough, you can all make this point that sport for entertainment is poor form but I'm blue in the face talking to people about going to watch races in Sundrive or trying to get people to watch track cycling on TV and nobody gives a **** about IP or even the points races or scratches, it's all about the match sprint and Keirin. People generally don't rank track in Ireland at all bar the odd nod at the TV. In fact, considering comments I've heard of late and my own experience over the last few years, many, if not the majority of, road/MTB cyclists have very little respect for it at all. So if the UCI or IOC can get it any attention at all I'm happy enough.

Beasty

They've just announced the 3rd and final round of the World Cup will be held in Guadalajara, Mexico, which means rounds 2 and 3 will both be in Mexico. Looks like there's going to be a bit of travelling for anyone wanting to qualify for the World Championships in Colombia

I am guessing they struggled to find anyone to put this on as it's essentially a quiet time in the Olympic cycle with some teams taking stock before the next qualification starts.

kumate_champ07

<snip>

wish they had the 1km tt , theres nothing else like it. near the end of its olympic life it was the larger sprinters that had the edge but enduros could do well in it too.


I like the Omnium as a specator, theres some effort required to follow the points/leaderboard situation but its a great combination of individual races and a test of toughness. would be nice if they had a match sprint to go with the flying lap too!


anyone elese notice the lack of strictness with the sprinters lane just recently? there were clear breaches of the rules on a few occasions but they let it slide

kumate_champ07

Beasty wrote: »

They've just announced the 3rd and final round of the World Cup will be held in Guadalajara, Mexico, which means rounds 2 and 3 will both be in Mexico. Looks like there's going to be a bit of travelling for anyone wanting to qualify for the World Championships in Colombia

I am guessing they struggled to find anyone to put this on as it's essentially a quiet time in the Olympic cycle with some teams taking stock before the next qualification starts.

that must be a first? very unusual to have it in the same place 2 times in a row, maybe Manchester had it twice ,