Confessions of a never has been.....

AuldManKing

Duanington wrote: »

I think they top out at 16 alright D ( maybe I'm wrong there) but I think they're more frequent in those plans too, I've done 2 over the course of 15\16 weeks ( not including long runs with a steady finish, I've had a quite a few slow long runs with the emphises on running very easy so I think that allows for it

Any thoughts on a straight 18 versus breaking them up?

For Dublin I done a couple of long steady runs broken up e.g. 7s/2e/6s/2e/4s
I also done 1 continuous (3/4 Mara).

The MP or Steady pace is somewhat derided in circles as a 'no mans land' pace - in so far as the same physiological benefits can be got at a slower pace.

But for me, the strength and confidence that you get from doing these type of steady runs (broken or continuous) are often underestimated.

Murph_D

AuldManKing wrote: »

But for me, the strength and confidence that you get from doing these type of steady runs (broken or continuous) are often underestimated.

Agree with that. I did 12 steady myself at the weekend and it felt like the first 'real' run I'd done in ages.

Duanington

AuldManKing wrote: »

Any thoughts on a straight 18 versus breaking them up?

For Dublin I done a couple of long steady runs broken up e.g. 7s/2e/6s/2e/4s
I also done 1 continuous (3/4 Mara).

The MP or Steady pace is somewhat derided in circles as a 'no mans land' pace - in so far as the same physiological benefits can be got at a slower pace.

But for me, the strength and confidence that you get from doing these type of steady runs (broken or continuous) are often underestimated.

Deffo a place for the broken ones, I think some of the benefits there come from the pace change as much as the actual pace on those ones.

I've heard mixed views on the benefits\drawbacks of the long continous steady stuff and for me, I just side with the pro camp this time around....given the way the plan has worked out ( lots and lots of easy stuff, quite a few long slow runs, fair bit of xc racing and a little bit of speedwork too). I know people that hammer them out every week but that isn't for me

Swashbuckler

AuldManKing wrote:

The MP or Steady pace is somewhat derided in circles as a 'no mans land' pace - in so far as the same physiological benefits can be got at a slower pace.

Exactly why I asked as it seemed in no man's land. Interesting discussion.

healy1835

Is there any worries that you don't have any road races in the build up? As in no 10 Miler or Half....or are you happy that your (amazing) XC season will be more than enough?

Duanington

healy1835 wrote: »

Is there any worries that you don't have any road races in the build up? As in no 10 Miler or Half....or are you happy that your (amazing) XC season will be more than enough?

I'm not exactly worried J but I would definitely have preferred to have a longer race over the last month or so alright, its just the way the weekends fell really and I couldn't find one\fit one in. It was one of those things that was out of my control so nothing I can do on that front.

The xc stuff was initially all about hard sessions, building strength, speed and endurance, I didn't plan on racing that many originally but I adjusted the plan accordingly as I went along

Duanington

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Exactly why I asked as it seemed in no man's land. Interesting discussion.

I've heard people say exactly that and then I've heard very senior people in the club ( and Luke) say that they are priceless if done in the right manner and not overcooked.

I've never really understood the no man's land argument on them to be honest, certainly not if the run is executed at the right effort.

Swashbuckler

Duanington wrote:

I've heard people say exactly that and then I've heard very senior people in the club ( and Luke) say that they are priceless if done in the right manner.

I'm definitely far from an expert but it's Interesting to see the why of some of these runs. Also interesting to see that sometimes the mental/confidence aspect plays as much a part as physiological stuff.

Duanington

Swashbuckler wrote: »

I'm definitely far from an expert but it's Interesting to see the why of some of these runs. Also interesting to see that sometimes the mental/confidence aspect plays as much a part as physiological stuff.

I’m far from an expert myself P, if nothing else, the confidence thing alone is worth the couple of steady efforts in my book. Ive been careful to run long runs very easy and throwing in the couple of steadier efforts along the way has left me feeling good about the prospect of running a marathon again. I ran a good steady effort in the build up to Berlin last time our and remember walking away from it feeling that I was ready for the marathon

Sure we’ll find out in a few weeks either way !

OOnegative

I think the steady run is a great workout, great for building strength of both kinds mind & body when done at the appropriate level as D says.

dublin runner

Nice work.

I think we are similar in that strength is our well, strength! I lack the speed component and would estimate that if you got 100 athletes with very similar marathon times to myself, over, let us say, a 5km, I would rank in the bottom 10%. That doesn't matter if the marathon is your goal (it can do though - that is another debate)

'Re Steady Runs. Most people do them too fast, myself as guilty as the next. I did 24 at steady last year (MP +10-12sec) In hindsight, that was a shade bit fast. On the day it felt extremely manageable but if I was going back, I would slow it a shade. I did a marathon the cycle before at steady and as that was a bit slower, I think far more beneficial - beneficial on marathon race day.

Steady running in my eyes shouldn't be a physical persuit. Steady running is simply about rhythm running and very simply, finding your groove. Forget watch looking to find your pace - it's a psychological activity, not a physical challenge (if that makes sense!)

If the miles don't FLY by you are, most likely, running too hard.

- 'Comfortably hard running' -

El CabaIIo

Steady runs accelate aerobic gains simply put. Training isn't as simple as hard/easy once one get past the initial beginner phase. There is nuance where you have everything from hard to easy and in between and balance has to be found. For instance during a base phase where there is no hard days as such, many people will run more steady days as recovery from hard sessions isn't needed as much meaning you can add more moderate efforts which will accelerate aerobic gains faster than easy runs as the stimulus is higher. It's definitely not no mans land. Instead of looking at training as hard/easy, cost/recovery is probably better in my opinion

Say a truly hard effort is 10, you need to set it off with recovery days at 2 effort. If you have no higher than say a 6 day of moderate running, then you don't need as many 2 days and can have more 6 days. It depends on where you are in the cycle or what you are training for in how you spend those points i.e base where aerobic development is the priority will no big session days and can be replaced with more moderate days. Specific phase which has bigger workouts requires more recovery days and easy days.

It's called modulation in coaching circles. It also depends on the athlete in queetion. A newer runner has less points to spend than a developed runner as the newer runner gets big benefits off lower intensity and needs more recovery. Developed runners need to often go higher in intensity(more moderate efforts, more volume etc) to get benefits or they plateau. It's called training load which is volume+intensity=load.

Swashbuckler

dublin runner wrote:

- 'Comfortably hard running' -

See that confuses me a little. Is comfortably hard not tempo/threshold? I thought steady was "comfortable".

MY BAD

I'd always consider steady as close to marathon pace maybe a few seconds per kilometre slower

OOnegative

Mellow Yellow 26.2 wrote: »

I'd always consider steady as close to marathon pace maybe a few seconds per kilometre slower

That’s why P doesn’t grasp the steady run, afraid to run a marathon.........

Swashbuckler

OOnegative wrote:

That’s why P doesn’t grasp the steady run, afraid to run a marathon.........

Mellow Yellow 26.2 wrote:

I'd always consider steady as close to marathon pace maybe a few seconds per kilometre slower

Hahaha. Feck off. Every person I know running marathons is either injured or needs a 6 month recovery. My body wouldn't handle a marathon block. Haha.

I dunno. DD just ran a steady around 6.50. That's nowhere near his marathon pace. Steady for me is nowhere near my "marathon pace" either.

El CabaIIo

Mellow Yellow 26.2 wrote: »

I'd always consider steady as close to marathon pace maybe a few seconds per kilometre slower

Luke's definition was halfway between easy and marathon pace iirc. People generally classify it as anything faster than easy but slower than around marathon pace depending on who is talking. You'll hear everything from aerobic tempo to Steady as well for around MP running as well

Just like Tempo is a loose term that can have a million different definitions. It's almost more imortant to look at who is saying it and the context they say it in to figure what they mean by it.

Swashbuckler

Good point actually ElC. If I was told to run steady I know that's around 6.50ish-7 for me. Tempo (I've never specifically been told to run a tempo) would probably be around 6.30. Threshold is around 6.10 I think.

El CabaIIo

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Good point actually ElC. If I was told to run steady I know that's around 6.50ish-7 for me. Tempo (I've never specifically been told to run a tempo) would probably be around 6.30. Threshold is around 6.10 I think.

Yeah, I'd say you're probably right

If you go back in AMK's, D's and your own logs. You might remember a multi pace sessions which were prescribed where you sections at 6:00-6:10 pace broken up by 6:30-6:40 pace sections, I think that's a fairly reliable indicator of what Aaerobic tempo's were for you guys(6:30 pace) as I think the goal of the session was to get in some threshold work with a highend aerobic tempo section. That's what the goal looked like to me anyway but I could be wrong, just an interpretation.

Duanington

dublin runner wrote: »

Steady running in my eyes shouldn't be a physical persuit. Steady running is simply about rhythm running and very simply, finding your groove. Forget watch looking to find your pace - it's a psychological activity, not a physical challenge (if that makes sense!)
-

This is what I was after on the run, I don't think I checked the watch very often to be honest, I knew the effort was steady

Re being similar to you in that strength is our strength ( although slower), I'd agree...I relied on it during some of the xc racing recently...knew I'd see faster lads come back on tough courses etc. I was also given a simultanious insult\compliment by one of the coaches at the club afterwards.."well done, D...I'd say you're stronger than you are fast.." ...classic stuff

Duanington

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Hahaha. Feck off. Every person I know running marathons is either injured or needs a 6 month recovery. My body wouldn't handle a marathon block. Haha.

I dunno. DD just ran a steady around 6.50. That's nowhere near his marathon pace. Steady for me is nowhere near my "marathon pace" either.

There was quite a broad range in terms of guide pace 6.50-7.10 but I rarely obsess over paces in training ( or races)....found the effort, settled at it and just kept running. MP is still a bit of an unknown really ( although its no secret I've been training at 6.30 pace for MP sessions), its been a while but I do look forward to seeing how I hold up in 3 weeks time

Duanington

El CabaIIo wrote: »

Steady runs accelate aerobic gains simply put. Training isn't as simple as hard/easy once one get past the initial beginner phase. There is nuance where you have everything from hard to easy and in between and balance has to be found. For instance during a base phase where there is no hard days as such, many people will run more steady days as recovery from hard sessions isn't needed as much meaning you can add more moderate efforts which will accelerate aerobic gains faster than easy runs as the stimulus is higher. It's definitely not no mans land. Instead of looking at training as hard/easy, cost/recovery is probably better in my opinion

Say a truly hard effort is 10, you need to set it off with recovery days at 2 effort. If you have no higher than say a 6 day of moderate running, then you don't need as many 2 days and can have more 6 days. It depends on where you are in the cycle or what you are training for in how you spend those points i.e base where aerobic development is the priority will no big session days and can be replaced with more moderate days. Specific phase which has bigger workouts requires more recovery days and easy days.

It's called modulation in coaching circles. It also depends on the athlete in queetion. A newer runner has less points to spend than a developed runner as the newer runner gets big benefits off lower intensity and needs more recovery. Developed runners need to often go higher in intensity(more moderate efforts, more volume etc) to get benefits or they plateau. It's called training load which is volume+intensity=load.

Great stuff, thanks for sharing

Swashbuckler

On the subject of steady runs is it just me or can a steady effort actually feel easier than an easy effort sometimes? It's something I've found lately that the easy runs can sometimes be a bit of a slog but as soon as you kick into the steady pace it's just that bit more enjoyable? Different story for 18 miles I guess.

shotgunmcos

Swashbuckler wrote: »

On the subject of steady runs is it just me or can a steady effort actually feel easier than an easy effort sometimes? It's something I've found lately that the easy runs can sometimes be a bit of a slog but as soon as you kick into the steady pace it's just that bit more enjoyable? Different story for 18 miles I guess.

Yeah I find slow miles a slog but steady enjoyable. Maybe it the constant mental concentration to keep slow slow that makes it feel like a chore.

Duanington

Swashbuckler wrote: »

On the subject of steady runs is it just me or can a steady effort actually feel easier than an easy effort sometimes? It's something I've found lately that the easy runs can sometimes be a bit of a slog but as soon as you kick into the steady pace it's just that bit more enjoyable? Different story for 18 miles I guess.

I often find that alright P - maybe its a mental thing

Duanington

28.01.2019

Another heavy enough week in terms of sessions comes to an end, one of the weeks that I knew could be tricky to get through in its entirety, glad to have it done.


Thursday

My first attempt at the infamous "corkscrew" session in Howth, I'd often heard about this through various sources and how it is the kind of session that really leaves you jelly legged and sucking low flying aircraft out of the sky.

The session is basically a series of long hill sprints - 500m or so of running up a steady incline, recover for 60 seconds then go again, further up into an incline that twists and gets horribly steep as the section goes on.
Jog down and start again


If I thought the shock of trying to run fast for 500m up the first incline was horrific ( I did), the 2nd section brought me to a near standstill..."you should be swimming in lactic by the time you get near the top" is what I've been told, I was drowning in the stuff by the time I got halfway through the 2nd section.
Cut it about 50m short from the top to save myself from an oncoming car but to be honest, I was done anyway. Holy moly that hurt

Jog back down and repeat.

I was almost looking forward to the 1st section coming back down, got going again, focusing on form and turnover as always, trying to power up the hill ( I'd say I looked like a wally). Stopped at the recovery point, jogged around a little for the 60 seconds and continued on up the climb into the corkscrew proper, really felt the quads and glutes burning by halfway but kept some kind of form and just kept everything moving. By the end of the rep, I was ready to lie down and roll back down the hill.

Jogged down to the start and went again, full of dread

Legs were heavy on this one and it was a struggle to keep it going to the recovery point...but I got there and relished the 60 second break. The 2nd part was not pretty at all...or fast....in fact, I may have been moving backwards at one point. Thighs ready to pop at the top and I did have myself a bit of a lie down ....on the wet ground, in the rain.....it was beautiful.


It didn't disappoint, that's for sure.

7.6 miles in total for the session ( inc w\u, w\d)


Friday


Lunchtime run with 2 of the lads from work, enjoyed this one and while the legs were feeling the effects of the week, the chatter helped the miles fly bu


PM - another easy run home, meeting FBOT for a few miles along the way

11.2 easy miles for the day


Saturday


A big session on the cards today, 4x3 miles@6.30 with 4 mins easy between.

These sessions are straightforward, the pace isn't exactly quick, the recovery looks nice on paper but as the session goes on, the legs tire out and you really start to feel it.

Conditions weren't great getting out for this, I thought about waiting for a break in the showers but was stuck for time so just had to go with it and head out into what was a blustery and showery St Anne's.

A couple of miles easy for the warmup, some drills and then straight into it. As usual, I found it hard to find the pace for the first mile, overcooking the effort initially and settling in eventually. I used my usual loop for this, a bit of the parkrun route and a bit of the bottom of the park, a couple of drags and a couple of nice straight sections so honest enough.

1st 3 mile section - 6.28 pace

I have to admit, I was tired after the first 3 mile section and enjoyed every second of the recovery, when I got going again, I found the legs were struggling a little to turnover, the wind had picked up and I was checking the watch too much. I eventually settled down and focused on the effort again, trying to stay smooth and relaxed, despite the odd section where I was exposed to the breeze. Got it back nicely for the latter part of this section

2nd 3 mile section - 6.32 pace ( I suspect a little quicker but we'll go with Garmin on this)

Into the 3rd and mentally, I knew I was into the 2nd half which helped because I was tired at this stage. Focused on effort and form from the start, ignored the watch largely but I did catch myself worrying about the pace each time I hit the wind ( stupid), I had to dig in to keep everything moving well over the latter stages of this but anytime I found a sheltered section, I was aware of how relaxed I felt which is pleasing.

3rd 3 mile section - 6.25 pace

Into the last section, decided to break up the route a little and turn around to go back the way I came ( which meant the first 1.5 would be up a slight drag and into the breeze...but I'd finish on the easier stretch).

Moved very well for most of this, I was tired, I was fatigued but I stayed focused and relaxed for most of it. Breathing was a little laboured heading into the wind at times and while the legs were very heavy by this stage, it was a case of gritting the teeth a little, focusing on the job at hand and finishing it out.

4th section - 6.24 pace

I was tired after this, legs very heavy and stiff, I jogged a very easy mile home to bring the total for the session to just over 16 miles


Sunday

Up supporting the 5 miler in Raheny, lots of boardsies and clubmates putting in strong performances, enjoyed not having that look of pain on my face with a mile to go :-)

Headed out that evening for 6 very easy miles on the coast, bringing the weekly total to 75

Swashbuckler

That's some week.....

Duanington

Swashbuckler wrote: »

That's some week.....

One of the tough ones alright P

Duanington

30.01.2019

Monday

Last of the long slow runs on the plan, I found myself looking forward to this but at the same time I was tired and ravenous with hunger all day so ended up eating a bit too much throughout the day, leading to a sluggish start to the run ( and a washing machine sloshing thing going on in the gut )

Met FBOT for the first half of this which was great, tipped around chatting away for 10 miles and then headed off to make up the remaining 21 miles.

No worrying about pace this evening, just keeping the effort easy but by 17\18 miles or so I was feeling very fatigued and the washing machine effect resulted in an emergenct dash into the local boozer in Raheny to use the facilities ( close call )

Felt a million dollars after that and headed back to the coast to get off the concrete and run on the tarmac surface, the difference was incredible.

21 miles in total


Tuesday

Run home from work, the long way....all very easy and looped around the grass on the seafront a little too

6 miles very easy

Wednesday

Back to the track for the first time in a couple of weeks, 8x600s on the cards and I was looking forward to this one, I had a feeling that I'd be told to control these and not bust a gut and so it turned out.

The truth is, I struggled to get the legs turning over for the first 2 or 3, that strange heavy legged\but breathing like you're cruising feeling.
Had a bit of company for the rest and it served to push me just a little more and we were told to go at the last one, which I managed pretty well - pleasing to see the strength was there.

600s were around 2.04 for the first few, dropping to 2.02\2.03 and then to 1.53 for the last

6.4 miles for the lot

A few good nights' sleep are in order now before a session this weekend, its getting to that kind of time now

Duanington

04.02.2019

Thursday

Into St Anne's on lunch to meet up with a clubmate and run a few easy miles, the wind was up and the park was quiet which is always enjoyable, good banter made the miles fly by and 9.2 miles was my total for the day

Friday

Lunchtime run with a lad in work, love these lunchtime runs - good company and nice winter weather around the nature reserve\park.

5.5 miles easy

PM - easy trot home from work

4.2 miles easy

Saturday

Changed things around this weekend to run my session on Sunday ( 14 days out from the race) so just an easy 4 miles around St Anne's this morning which felt odd.

Sunday

Last longish session today and while it had less volume than previous weekend sessions, it would still be enough to work the system and provide another bit of prep for race day

2 x
2 miles @ 6.30
3 mins steady
1 mile @ 6.30
3 mins steady
1k @ HMP\Threshold

5 minutes easy ( not my usual plodding ) between sets

I had hoped to head to the PP for this but time was against me so I had to settle for St Anne's, not ideal because I knew the park would be fairly busy at the time I was headed out at ( 11.40 or so)

Got a warm up done, a few drills and got stuck in. Bit of a headwind blowing for the first section which tends to have me working a little to hard against it.
The steady recovery was a bit of a mental shock to the system, no plodding along and filling the lungs but to be fair, after a minute or so I was fine.

Into the 1 mile section and I was heading down the avenue which was nice, felt very relaxed here with the shelter from the wind.

Another steady recovery then into the 1k ( which I have as being slightly short on the watch). I was into the wind for some of this and fighting a little bit too much.


5 minutes easy recovery then off to repeat it all.

The first mile of the 2 mile section shows up as slightly slow which seems odd as I felt like I was moving very well but then the 2nd mile shows up too fast so probably some Garmin stuff going on here.

Steady recovery then into the 1 mile - back up the avenue, into the parkrun route ( in reverse) and a little too quick again

Steady recovery then into the last 1k section - moving very well for this and finding a stride that I just enjoyed running. I knew I'd a little more freedom to open up on the 1k sections so didn't back off too much.

A solid session, while I did run too quick at times, I think that was partly down to the wind and the easier than normal day before. For the most part, I felt good aerobically - my legs were feeling it afterwards though and are glad that we're into taper proper now.

2 miles - 6.22\6.23
1 mile - 6.28
1k ( short) - 6.17 pace

2 miles - 6.35\6.21
1 mile - 6.17
1k - 5.57 pace


steady recoveries were in and around 7.20 pace

Just shy of 14 miles for the lot