Danske bank to close retail customer accounts

Ryaned40

Ryaned40 wrote: »

No variable was higher

In 2007 June we signed contract for 4.7% and variable was 5.1%. This changed in a short time, offset did go higher but at time of signing it was lower

dolallyoh

Ryaned40 wrote: »

They say that current and savings accounts linked to offset are not within the offset mortgage contract so they are within their right to withdraw them and it does not affect the offset mortgage

Thanks for that. My side letter states the absolute contrary. Do you have a side letter saying "we will not remove your offset accounts if it is the last account you have for offsetting"

Ryaned40

dolallyoh wrote: »

Thanks for that. My side letter states the absolute contrary. Do you have a side letter saying "we will not remove your offset accounts if it is the last account you have for offsetting"

No I don't

kennM

Hey all,

Managed to find a great spreadsheet which allows you to calculate savings & costs of your mortgage. I've personally used this to understand & compare options/interest rates and how much is savable in comparison to offset amount. You can fill in how much is owed, what interest rate, how much is offset, etc. This has helped me structure complaint to FSO.

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=1157173

Hopefully others find it useful.

yop

kennM wrote: »

Hey all,

Managed to find a great spreadsheet which allows you to calculate savings & costs of your mortgage. I've personally used this to understand & compare options/interest rates and how much is savable in comparison to offset amount. You can fill in how much is owed, what interest rate, how much is offset, etc. This has helped me structure complaint to FSO.

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=1157173

Hopefully others find it useful.

Exactly what I used, I calculated our net worth increase over the 7 years since we got the mortgage and the interest saved and averaged it out. I then used calculators and spreadsheets to discover potential saves or now losses for all of this.

I'm having no joy getting these rates for tat period lads. Its really going to bite us if we can't find the rates I thin. Our FSO letter is due this week.

ABC101

@ YOP,

I take it you are requiring the interest rates for Offset mortgages?

I think I got my offset mortgage in 2007, November drawdown.

I also think I have all my paper bank statements since then.

I am currently away.. however I should be back on Thursday... I can check up then.

Will that be any good to ya?

yop

Cheer buck ya, just going by what was said about about the FSO letter I am sure I will receive now also, unless they will make a deal with me, unlikely!!!
I think we need to disprove their statements in that 300 pile of shi!ITE they will be sending us.

Thanks v much.

ABC101

Ok... I'll get on it when I manage to open my filing cabinet on Thursday evening.

It probably will be Friday when I get a chance to go through it. It should not take long.

In fact I logged onto Danske ebanking... and I was able to get all my statements back to December 2010, including offset mortgage statements.

So that will make things easier for me... I'll just have to look up statements from November 2010 to November 2007.

Should not take too long on Friday.... I hope!!!

ABC101

30/09/11
Notice of change in interest rates
We would like to advise you that on 29.09.2011, National Irish Bank has changed its interest rates. Please see below what the change means to you with effect from 11.11.2011.

Offset Mortgage Group, account
We will increase the debit rate on your account by 0.95% to 4.60% p.a. from the current rate of 3.65%.

*********************************************

When I changed my CA to a Prestige account in November 2011 ( I think) I went from 4.6% to 4.15%.

I think that was the last change until 29th April 2014.... when we went from Offset to a Offset mortgage with no current account to offset against. i.e. we went from 4.X% to 3.X% ( substitute x for which ever is applicable etc)

ABC101

Just looking at the earliest statement which I can obtain on line..

It is for 31st December 2009 to 31st December 2010.

Interest rate was 3.65% during this time.

So the entire year 2010 was 3.65%.

O.K. that just leaves me with 2009, 2008, and late 2007 to root through when I get a chance on Friday.

kennM

yop wrote: »

Cheer buck ya, just going by what was said about about the FSO letter I am sure I will receive now also, unless they will make a deal with me, unlikely!!!
I think we need to disprove their statements in that 300 pile of shi!ITE they will be sending us.

Thanks v much.

Hey Yop, you have a PM with the ammunition you should need.

wersal gummage

Anyone else not see the ECB cut reflected in tracker mortgage?

makeorbrake

wersal gummage wrote: »

Anyone else not see the ECB cut reflected in tracker mortgage?

Received notice letter of ECB rate reduction - and therefore, tracker rate reduction from Danske last week.

wersal gummage

makeorbrake wrote: »

Received notice letter of ECB rate reduction - and therefore, tracker rate reduction from Danske last week.

I got a letter from danske a while back to say they are no longer dealing with my mortgage but some crowd called pepper finance are.... Will have to get on to them so

makeorbrake

wersal gummage wrote: »

I got a letter from danske a while back to say they are no longer dealing with my mortgage but some crowd called pepper finance are.... Will have to get on to them so

Sure - I got that too (It's Peper Asset Servicing in Shannon). However, I assume letter was sent by them even though it has the Danske letter head. After all, Danske have not sold their loan book (YET!) - just got someone in to manage it on a day to day basis.

wersal gummage

makeorbrake wrote: »

Sure - I got that too (It's Peper Asset Servicing in Shannon). However, I assume letter was sent by them even though it has the Danske letter head. After all, Danske have not sold their loan book (YET!) - just got someone in to manage it on a day to day basis.

Rang them. The reduced amount should have been debited. The correct amount 'probably' will next month, 'more than likely' and 'should be' but to ring them again in a month if it isn't......

jwrbs

Ryaned40 wrote: »

They say that current and savings accounts linked to offset are not within the offset mortgage contract so they are within their right to withdraw them and it does not affect the offset mortgage

While you may not want to disclose here but if they are saying that the linked accounts are not within contract and you may not be able to rebutt that I am not clear what proving that the offset mortgage has had a different interest rate to a standard variable mortgage might achieve? Surely we need to be able to prove that we have a right/legitimate expectation given the basis on which the product was sold to us that we would be able to "offset" sums in our accounts and the loss we are suffering is the difference between the interest we will now have to pay over the remaining life of our mortgage and the estimated amount we would have had to pay had we been able to avail of an offset?
I suppose my question is will being able to prove that the offset and variable are/were different products because different rates and therefore a change in terms get us to where we want to get to. Surely we need to both prove change in terms, and also the quantum of the loss is the future inability to offset, rather than a minimal sum just because of the changed terms?

kennM

jwrbs wrote: »

While you may not want to disclose here but if they are saying that the linked accounts are not within contract and you may not be able to rebutt that I am not clear what proving that the offset mortgage has had a different interest rate to a standard variable mortgage might achieve? Surely we need to be able to prove that we have a right/legitimate expectation given the basis on which the product was sold to us that we would be able to "offset" sums in our accounts and the loss we are suffering is the difference between the interest we will now have to pay over the remaining life of our mortgage and the estimated amount we would have had to pay had we been able to avail of an offset?
I suppose my question is will being able to prove that the offset and variable are/were different products because different rates and therefore a change in terms get us to where we want to get to. Surely we need to both prove change in terms, and also the quantum of the loss is the future inability to offset, rather than a minimal sum just because of the changed terms?

I'm sensing someone has a level of legal familiarity.

IMO Danske banks arguments tabled thus far hold little to no water. So what do we know so far?

(a) Danske are claiming they are within their rights to close accounts linked to offset quoting terms and conditions that are dated long after people purchased their offset mortgage and opened linked accounts. The original terms and conditions do not include such clauses. And Danske are not in a position to provide signed/consent that the customer has agreed to

(b) From another poster who has had a response from Danske through the FSO. Danske are claiming that the offset mortgage is essentially a standard variable interest mortgage. Proving different applicable interest rates disproves this

(c) the original offset mortgage marketing (which I have copies of) clearly spelt out how the offset mortgage operates and how it was sold.

(d) Regarding quantum of offset - Change in terms leads us to breech of contract which puts the onus on Danske to negotiate or FSO to intervene to arrive at an appropriate position that is acceptable to both parties. This is where I would suspect Danske bank will produce the reems of previous offset calculations in order to formulate a quantum of loss and determine if 1% reduction is appropriate. I would suspect the customer will need to be able to definitively prove the quantum of loss and the dark art of negotiation takes over.

jwrbs

kennM wrote: »

I'm sensing someone has a level of legal familiarity.

IMO Danske banks arguments tabled thus far hold little to no water. So what do we know so far?

(a) Danske are claiming they are within their rights to close accounts linked to offset quoting terms and conditions that are dated long after people purchased their offset mortgage and opened linked accounts. The original terms and conditions do not include such clauses. And Danske are not in a position to provide signed/consent that the customer has agreed to

(b) From another poster who has had a response from Danske through the FSO. Danske are claiming that the offset mortgage is essentially a standard variable interest mortgage. Proving different applicable interest rates disproves this

(c) the original offset mortgage marketing (which I have copies of) clearly spelt out how the offset mortgage operates and how it was sold.

(d) Regarding quantum of offset - Change in terms leads us to breech of contract which puts the onus on Danske to negotiate or FSO to intervene to arrive at an appropriate position that is acceptable to both parties. This is where I would suspect Danske bank will produce the reems of previous offset calculations in order to formulate a quantum of loss and determine if 1% reduction is appropriate. I would suspect the customer will need to be able to definitively prove the quantum of loss and the dark art of negotiation takes over.

Thanks - and proving loss into the future is going to be dependent on being able to prove the amounts you will hold in your offsetting accounts. Not sure how that could be established - perhaps taking those useful "amount you have saved by availing of offset" figures that we were getting on a monthly basis.

On the maketing of the product originally there are lots of useful statments both in NIB literature, and PR fed reports in the newspapers quoting NIB about how good this new product was and how it works which inexplicably i bought into....

yop

Just got the "bible" in the door, standard response now from what I can see, not a on a per case basis.

kennM

jwrbs wrote: »

Thanks - and proving loss into the future is going to be dependent on being able to prove the amounts you will hold in your offsetting accounts. Not sure how that could be established - perhaps taking those useful "amount you have saved by availing of offset" figures that we were getting on a monthly basis.

On the maketing of the product originally there are lots of useful statments both in NIB literature, and PR fed reports in the newspapers quoting NIB about how good this new product was and how it works which inexplicably i bought into....

I would suspect that will the basis they (FSO most likely) will work from unless you can demonstrably prove dramatic change in circumstances, proven earning power or saving power.

The thing to also be careful about though is, while Danske are putting a 1% reduction to "compensate" for the change (Which in a way shoots a hole in their own argument, why would you offer 1% rate reduction if you were within your rights to close the accounts? Banks don't do goodwill - or it's incredibly seldom!) there is no guarantee that this 1% will last. In 2011 they bumped interest rates by 0.95% in an atmosphere of falling ECB rates. What's going to happen when rates go up???

makeorbrake

yop wrote: »

Just got the "bible" in the door, standard response now from what I can see, not a on a per case basis.

Which means you'se can crowd-source your response rather than being overcome by the 300 pages of legalese.

yop

makeorbrake wrote: »

Which means you'se can crowd-source your response rather than being overcome by the 300 pages of legalese.

There is about 294 pages of statements and contracts and the new T&C's. I see they didn't include the side letter which they sent out but now ignoring......

Ok, so the side letter still stands.
I have emailed comparing the 2 DIFFERENT products OFFSET and FIXED from and NIB employee.

What else do we need?

niceoneted

Still no notification of the change in monthly amount for my tracker mortgage. Payment due out 9th of the month. Not sure if I should just adjust it myself.

Thoie

niceoneted wrote: »

Still no notification of the change in monthly amount for my tracker mortgage. Payment due out 9th of the month. Not sure if I should just adjust it myself.

Give them a ring and ask? I got the letter a week or so ago with my new interest rate - sometimes things genuinely get lost in the post.

ABC101

If you now have a high balance current account with another Irish bank, then this could strengthen your argument, as it can no longer be offset against your mortgage and you are at a loss due to this. Might not suit all ex Danske clients, but still.

Ryaned40

Just sent reply to fso with 1 day left to deadline, busy all week getting more evidence to support my argument! They will forward this onto danske and have to give them the same time to reply I suppose ( 10 days ). Another step closer to getting a decision ! Still confident about decision being made in our favour, sick of it all now though! Ink cartridges cost a fortune now days!
Best of luck everyone

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

makeorbrake

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Sure. They're hoping you'll go away. Don't! Stay the course and bring this to its rightful conclusion.

yop

Not a chance in hell that I'm going away.