Schools for foreign children

zioaxiom

Hello,
I'm new in Ireland and i'm looking for a school suitable for my 4yo child. We are from Italy and our son doesn't speak english. We live in Dublin, near the city centre.

I already tried looking at citizeninformation and googling, but unsuccessfully. Please, could you suggest me where to find information about "integration" or international schools?

Thanks in advance,
Luca

Moonbeam

Hi Luca,
It would not be uncommon with children with no english to start school here.
The only international school that i know of is St Andrews in Dublin which has a great reputation but google showed up http://www.internationalschooldublin.ie/ too.

zioaxiom

Thank you St Andrews is in Blackrock, right?

silverharp

St Killian's in Clonskeagh (at the back of UCD) has an international ethos , they are used to having pupils arrive with little or no English, it is fee paying.

Midnight Sundance

I would say most schools in Dublin have a large number of foreign children. Talk to your local school and ask them about inclusion. Your child is only 4 and so you still have another year to look around. I wouldn't worry about your child not being included. The children from other countries pick up English very quick at that age and they become as much a part of the classroom as any other child in there.

Victor

There is a French primary school in Foxrock, but no Italian school that I know of. You might contact the Italian embassy. http://www.ambdublino.esteri.it/Ambasciata_Dublino

Otherwise http://education.ie/en/Find-a-School/

Cokezero

Your best bet is to just go to your local primary schools and enquire about waiting lists. Some schools are Catholic, Multi-denominational etc and perhaps this is something that you may want to consider.

munchkin_utd

if he is 4 then he has plenty of time to learn in school.
Ireland experienced gigantic immigration from east europe in the past decade, many with families and young kids with no english so there are the procedures in place to deal with kids with weak or little english in normal schools (although with cutbacks less now than before aparantly).

As Cokezero says, youre best to go to the local schools and have a chat. Integrated schools (i.e. not catholic ones) have a more multinational attendance so would be even more geared up to deal with your son.

robindch

zioaxiom wrote: »

i'm looking for a school suitable for my 4yo child. We are from Italy and our son doesn't speak english. We live in Dublin, near the city centre.

As others have said, I would not be worried about putting your child into a school where there is little if any Italian. A kid of four will pick up English very quickly indeed, and you don't need to worry much about that.

You also need to be aware that most of the schools in Ireland are controlled by the catholic church (and most of the remainder are controlled by the protestand church), so quite a few schools will insist on seeing religious documentation in order to let your child into the school. Many of these schools will also spend a lot of time teaching your child the religion of the school owner, so be prepared for that, if you're not aware of it.

A better alternative is to look at the Educate Together schools which are controlled by a democratic board. I'm not sure, though, that there are many ET schools in Dublin city center, so like many Irish people, you may need to consider moving where you live in order to be near a better school for your kid. Also, as the catholic-controlled schools can block non-catholics (generally, non-Irish people), you will find that there are more international and multilingual kids in the ET schools too -- in my kid's class in her ET school in South Dublin, we have speakers of Italian, Polish, Russian (my kid!) and Spanish, and everybody gets along great!

zioaxiom

Thank you so much, really Now I have a clearer idea about what to look for and ask.

Thanks again,
Luca

zioaxiom

robindch wrote: »

in my kid's class in her ET school in South Dublin, we have speakers of Italian, Polish, Russian (my kid!) and Spanish, and everybody gets along great!

Thanks Which school are you talking about?

Thanks again,
Luca

robindch

Hi Luca, I've just sent you a private message. Ciao!

robindch

robindch wrote: »

As others have said, I would not be worried about putting your child into a school where there is little if any Italian. A kid of four will pick up English very quickly indeed, and you don't need to worry much about that.

You also need to be aware that most of the schools in Ireland are controlled by the catholic church (and most of the remainder are controlled by the protestand church), so quite a few schools will insist on seeing religious documentation in order to let your child into the school. Many of these schools will also spend a lot of time teaching your child the religion of the school owner, so be prepared for that, if you're not aware of it.

A better alternative is to look at the Educate Together schools which are controlled by a democratic board. I'm not sure, though, that there are many ET schools in Dublin city center, so like many Irish people, you may need to consider moving where you live in order to be near a better school for your kid. Also, as the catholic-controlled schools can block non-catholics (generally, non-Irish people), you will find that there are more international and multilingual kids in the ET schools too -- in my kid's class in her ET school in South Dublin, we have speakers of Italian, Polish, Russian (my kid!) and Spanish, and everybody gets along great!

Strangely enough, the Catholic run school near me has a far more international mix of students than the local educate together.
The ED school seems exclusively Irish and middle class, while the RC school is far more diverse.

Moonbeam

Is the ET enrollment policy not 1st come 1st served?

downthemiddle

robindch wrote: »

As others have said, I would not be worried about putting your child into a school where there is little if any Italian. A kid of four will pick up English very quickly indeed, and you don't need to worry much about that.

You also need to be aware that most of the schools in Ireland are controlled by the catholic church (and most of the remainder are controlled by the protestand church), so quite a few schools will insist on seeing religious documentation in order to let your child into the school. Many of these schools will also spend a lot of time teaching your child the religion of the school owner, so be prepared for that, if you're not aware of it.

A better alternative is to look at the Educate Together schools which are controlled by a democratic board. I'm not sure, though, that there are many ET schools in Dublin city center, so like many Irish people, you may need to consider moving where you live in order to be near a better school for your kid. Also, as the catholic-controlled schools can block non-catholics (generally, non-Irish people), you will find that there are more international and multilingual kids in the ET schools too -- in my kid's class in her ET school in South Dublin, we have speakers of Italian, Polish, Russian (my kid!) and Spanish, and everybody gets along great!

I'm sorry but this post really is a load of nonsense and certainly doesn't reflect the reality of the majority of schools in Ireland. Children from all backgrounds are welcomed into the vast majority of schools. There are issues if schools are over subscribed but this is rare at primary level. All schools teach the same national curriculum no matter what their ethos is. The same amount of time is set aside in all schools for the teaching of religon/ethics etc. Such misinformation really is not helpful.

Miss Lockhart

downthemiddle wrote: »

I'm sorry but this post really is a load of nonsense and certainly doesn't reflect the reality of the majority of schools in Ireland. Children from all backgrounds are welcomed into the vast majority of schools. There are issues if schools are over subscribed but this is rare at primary level. All schools teach the same national curriculum no matter what their ethos is. The same amount of time is set aside in all schools for the teaching of religon/ethics etc. Such misinformation really is not helpful.

Oversubscribed primary schools are very common in Dublin - certainly not a rare issue!

downthemiddle

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

Oversubscribed primary schools are very common in Dublin - certainly not a rare issue!

Oversubscribed schools are not very common in Dublin.
Most Catholic Dublin schools can cater for all children within their catchment area. Not being able to cater for children from outside their catchment area does not make a school oversubscribed.
There have been some issues within a small number of educate together schools because of their first come first served enrolment policy. With changes being made to this policy this issue will be alleviated.

byhookorbycrook

I disagree, there is a shortage of school places in Dublin and this needs to be addressed.

downthemiddle

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

I disagree, there is a shortage of school places in Dublin and this needs to be addressed.

Where specifically in Dublin is there a shortage of school places? What evidence do you have to back up this assertion?

Victor

I imagine you will find that in new suburbs there are not enough schools places and in established areas there are too many.

downthemiddle

Victor wrote: »

I imagine you will find that in new suburbs there are not enough schools places and in established areas there are too many.

The important word here is imagine.
The reality is that there are enough school places available in Dublin. Some parents would prefer not to send their children to certain schools but this does not constitute a shortage of school places.

ProfessorPlum

downthemiddle wrote: »

Where specifically in Dublin is there a shortage of school places? What evidence do you have to back up this assertion?

I have my kids in two different schools in dublin. One school couldn't accommodate both. Granted they are both in the same 'parish', (the catchment area where we live,) but to have siblings split between two schools imo means there is a shortage. We are in a very mature area.

downthemiddle

ProfessorPlum wrote: »

I have my kids in two different schools in dublin. One school couldn't accommodate both. Granted they are both in the same 'parish', (the catchment area where we live,) but to have siblings split between two schools imo means there is a shortage. We are in a very mature area.

So there are adequate school places in the area for the children that live there.
This is an issue of enrolment policy not school places. The majority of schools in Ireland (i.e. Catholic schools) prioritise siblings in their enrolment policies. They do this specifically to prevent situations such as yours arising. It is one of the reasons educate together are reviewing their policy because a situation like this is unacceptable to most people.

ProfessorPlum

No there aren't. There are waiting lists in both schools with kids living in the area going to schools in the next parish. That's not enough places. Where I lived before, I was told not to even bother putting my kids names down for the local school (the only one in the catchment) as they were full, and had waiting lists for all classes. So overall in Dublin, there might be enough places, but it's no use if the school places aren't where they're needed. BTW, I'm talking the local RC national schools in both areas - not the highly sought after ET or Gaelscoils, which as far as I can see are all oversubscribed.

downthemiddle

ProfessorPlum wrote: »

No there aren't. There are waiting lists in both schools with kids living in the area going to schools in the next parish. That's not enough places. Where I lived before, I was told not to even bother putting my kids names down for the local school (the only one in the catchment) as they were full, and had waiting lists for all classes. So overall in Dublin, there might be enough places, but it's no use if the school places aren't where they're needed. BTW, I'm talking the local RC national schools in both areas - not the highly sought after ET or Gaelscoils, which as far as I can see are all oversubscribed.

I'm sorry but your story doesn't add up.Approximately 5 years ago the education secretariat in Archbishop's House looked for the enrolment policies of all catholic schools in the Dublin archdiocese. Any school that didn't have siblings as first priority in their policies were told to make appropriate changes or their policy wouldn't be approved.
Have you asked for a copy of the school enrolment policy? Have you asked why siblings are not prioritised? Have you contacted the education secretariat? Is there an age criteria for entry that your child didn't meet? Why was your child refused enrolment, what reason did the school give?

ProfessorPlum

Look, I don't make this stuff up. We moved to the area. We tried to enrol our Catholic kids in the local (only) Catholic school. There wasn't places. I read the enrollment policy over and over. I met with the principal. I wrote to the chairman of the board of management. There was still no place for one of my kids. The fact that his sibling had been given a place didn't count because he wasn't already in the school (in any case there wasn't a place available in the class he was due to go into). I asked a solicitor to look at the enrollment policy. I consulted with the DofE. There was no place. That was the reason given for refusal. There were not enough places in the school. The principal told me they had several kids on waiting list for years who had to go to schools outside the area. He told me that most years they don't have enough places for all those wanting to get into JI's. There is also a CofI school in the area. It is also full, and has to turn away kids most years. One of my kids got a place in that school. So I suppose I'm lucky. But the different start / finish times and difficulty in bilocating myself is a pain.

robindch

downthemiddle wrote: »

I'm sorry but this post really is a load of nonsense

No, it isn't.

downthemiddle wrote: »

certainly doesn't reflect the reality of the majority of schools in Ireland.

Nope again. It accurately describes the reality in many Irish schools.

downthemiddle wrote: »

Children from all backgrounds are welcomed into the vast majority of schools.

I'd like to see some hard statistics to back up your claim that the children of non-catholics are welcomed, on an equal basis, with the children of non-catholics. Over in A+A, we've seen many reports over the years of people from people all over describing how they've either been pushed to the back of the queue or have had their Constitutional right not to have their child indoctrinated ignored. This is not to say that all schools do it, but many do, and all reserve the right to. The legislation that allows schools to enforce religious orthodoxy is the Equal Status Act, 2000, section 7:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2000/en/act/pub/0008/sec0007.html

downthemiddle wrote: »

All schools teach the same national curriculum no matter what their ethos is.

Nope.

The Educate Together schools teach the Learn Together curriculum which teaches children about religion. Most, and probably pretty much all, schools controlled by religious groups teach that their religion is true, and that other religions are false (I'd love to hear about a religious school that doesn't). There's a big difference there that the mind of a young child will have a hard time getting around.

downthemiddle wrote: »

The same amount of time is set aside in all schools for the teaching of religon/ethics etc.

Again, not true. Reports by the INTO and the ESRI have found wide variations in how religion is taught in schools controlled by the religious. Those reports reports are here:

http://www.into.ie/ROI/NewsEvents/Conferences/EqualityConference/EqualityCommitteeResearch_ReligioninPrimarySchools-Report.pdf
http://www.esri.ie/__uuid/7c3b20b7-0671-43a1-8ca7-7d073b36e6d0/BKMNEXT221.pdf

It's been a while since I read them, and I don't have time just now, but so far as I recall the ESRI one documents that school time spent on religion varies in religious schools from perhaps 10% to something like 20% of school time. And that, where the school spends more time on religion, the time tends to be taken from the time allocated to maths, science and other reality-based topics.

downthemiddle wrote: »

Such misinformation really is not helpful.

Hope you find the above useful

byhookorbycrook

We are a Catholic school but do not prioritise Catholics above other religions(or none)

downthemiddle

ProfessorPlum wrote: »

Look, I don't make this stuff up. We moved to the area. We tried to enrol our Catholic kids in the local (only) Catholic school. There wasn't places. I read the enrollment policy over and over. I met with the principal. I wrote to the chairman of the board of management. There was still no place for one of my kids. The fact that his sibling had been given a place didn't count because he wasn't already in the school (in any case there wasn't a place available in the class he was due to go into). I asked a solicitor to look at the enrollment policy. I consulted with the DofE. There was no place. That was the reason given for refusal. There were not enough places in the school. The principal told me they had several kids on waiting list for years who had to go to schools outside the area. He told me that most years they don't have enough places for all those wanting to get into JI's. There is also a CofI school in the area. It is also full, and has to turn away kids most years. One of my kids got a place in that school. So I suppose I'm lucky. But the different start / finish times and difficulty in bilocating myself is a pain.

Sorry I wasn't questioning the veracity of your story and apologise if I give that impression. I was looking for a logical explanation for what happened.
There is a difference when children move schools. Because of the connection between staffing appointments and pupil numbers schools will enrol the maximum number of children they can in Junior Infants. Obviously if none of the children leave then there will be no vacancy down the line. In this situation it appears that a child left the school in one stream to create a vacancy while the other stream you applied for was still full to capacity. This is an impossible situation for schools to legislate for because they cannot predict who will come or go and so creates a situation like yours.
However if you look at the enrolment in that school at Junior Infant level in that school it is more than likely that all children who live in the area, no matter what their background or creed, can be and are accommodated.
If anything there is now a surplus of places in areas such as West Dublin where previously there was a shortage.
I know of one school where the DES built an extra eight classrooms and the school haven't opened them because there is no demand for places. The DES also opened a new school in that area this year, despite being told after consultation with the other schools in the area that there was no demand for places. That school currently has 14 pupils. What a waste of money and resources.

downthemiddle

robindch wrote: »

No, it isn't.Nope again. It accurately describes the reality in many Irish schools.I'd like to see some hard statistics to back up your claim that the children of non-catholics are welcomed, on an equal basis, with the children of non-catholics. Over in A+A, we've seen many reports over the years of people from people all over describing how they've either been pushed to the back of the queue or have had their Constitutional right not to have their child indoctrinated ignored. This is not to say that all schools do it, but many do, and all reserve the right to. The legislation that allows schools to enforce religious orthodoxy is the Equal Status Act, 2000, section 7:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2000/en/act/pub/0008/sec0007.html

Nope.

The Educate Together schools teach the Learn Together curriculum which teaches children about religion. Most, and probably pretty much all, schools controlled by religious groups teach that their religion is true, and that other religions are false (I'd love to hear about a religious school that doesn't). There's a big difference there that the mind of a young child will have a hard time getting around.Again, not true. Reports by the INTO and the ESRI have found wide variations in how religion is taught in schools controlled by the religious. Those reports reports are here:

http://www.into.ie/ROI/NewsEvents/Conferences/EqualityConference/EqualityCommitteeResearch_ReligioninPrimarySchools-Report.pdf
http://www.esri.ie/__uuid/7c3b20b7-0671-43a1-8ca7-7d073b36e6d0/BKMNEXT221.pdf

It's been a while since I read them, and I don't have time just now, but so far as I recall the ESRI one documents that school time spent on religion varies in religious schools from perhaps 10% to something like 20% of school time. And that, where the school spends more time on religion, the time tends to be taken from the time allocated to maths, science and other reality-based topics.Hope you find the above useful

Religion/Learn Together are not part of the national curriculum. There is a 30 minute period timetabled in ALL schools for religion/learn together on a daily basis. This time is seperate to the time allocated to other curricular areas such as those you have mentioned and therefore there is absolutely no reason why it would impact on the teaching of those subjects.

downthemiddle

downthemiddle wrote: »

Sorry I wasn't questioning the veracity of your story and apologise if I give that impression. I was looking for a logical explanation for what happened.
There is a difference when children move schools. Because of the connection between staffing appointments and pupil numbers schools will enrol the maximum number of children they can in Junior Infants. Obviously if none of the children leave then there will be no vacancy down the line. In this situation it appears that a child left the school in one stream to create a vacancy while the other stream you applied for was still full to capacity. This is an impossible situation for schools to legislate for because they cannot predict who will come or go and so creates a situation like yours.
However if you look at the enrolment in that school at Junior Infant level in that school it is more than likely that all children who live in the area, no matter what their background or creed, can be and are accommodated.
If anything there is now a surplus of places in areas such as West Dublin where previously there was a shortage.
I know of one school where the DES built an extra eight classrooms and the school haven't opened them because there is no demand for places. The DES also opened a new school in that area this year, despite being told after consultation with the other schools in the area that there was no demand for places. That school currently has 14 pupils. What a waste of money and resources.

The Gaelscoil my daughter attends received more than 250 applications for the 64 places, of which 38 went to siblings. The local Educate Together, and Protestant schools would be as popular, the RC school would be the biggest school, but would generally be at the bottom of people's preferences.
So, while in total there are enough places, they are just in the wrong schools