Help with a marriage

Hermy

I'm struggling to find a record of the marriage of my great great grandparents John Hearne and Margaret Smith both of whom were born in the 1830's and died in Dublin in the 1890's. All but one of their children were born in Crosskeys, Co. Cavan (between 1868 and 1886) where John was then stationed as an RIC man. I'm wondering would his job as an RIC man have anything to do with my not being able to locate their marriage? Or would it assist in finding a clue to when and where they wed?

L1011

Have you his RIC record? That will have marriage date and what county he was stationed in.

I can't find a civil or church record for an 1884 RIC marriage but have his 1900 remarriage, so if there were rules blocking it, they were changed

Hermy

MYOB wrote: »

Have you his RIC record? That will have marriage date and what county he was stationed in.

No I don't have his RIC record - where would I get this?

I can't find a civil or church record for an 1884 RIC marriage but have his 1900 remarriage, so if there were rules blocking it, they were changed

His eldest daughter was born in 1868 so I don't think 1884 is relevant.
Also he died in 1899 so that's not likely his remarriage. His son John was also an RIC man stationed in Wicklow - he married Mary Tully (not confirmed) - so might that be the sons record instead?

tanoralover

Hermy wrote: »

No I don't have his RIC record - where would I get this?

UK National Archives and Pearse St libarary.

Ancestry.com have 5 John Hearnes in their index:

Name: Hearn John
Birth Date/Age: 19
Birthplace: Tipperary
Marriage or Comments: Y
Enlisted: 1847
Film #: 856059
Page #: 63B

Name: Hearne John
Birth Date/Age: 19
Birthplace: Wexford
Marriage or Comments: Y
Enlisted: 1847
Film #: 856059
Page #: 125

Name: Hearn John
Birth Date/Age: 19
Birthplace: Galway
Marriage or Comments: Y
Enlisted: 1850
Film #: 856060
Page #: 27B

Name: Hearne John
Birth Date/Age: 19
Birthplace: Waterford
Enlisted: 1850
Film #: 856060
Page #: 3B

Name: Hearn John
Birth Date/Age: 23
Birthplace: Waterford
Marriage or Comments: Y
Enlisted: 1868 D 1898
Film #: 856065
Page #: 163B

Hermy

Great work tanoralover.

Glasnevin Trust records his age at death in 1899 was 66 so born ~1833 and probably married mid 1850's at the earliest. Unfortunately I have no idea from where he hails although the name features a lot in Waterford. All his children's births bar the last were recorded in Cavan and himself and his family are later all recorded around Stoneybatter in Dublin.

Ponster

Hermy wrote: »

..and probably married mid 1850's at the earliest.

If the first child was born in 1868 than I doubt that they got married in the 1850's and more likely were married in '67/68

L1011

Hermy wrote: »

His eldest daughter was born in 1868 so I don't think 1884 is relevant.
Also he died in 1899 so that's not likely his remarriage. His son John was also an RIC man stationed in Wicklow - he married Mary Tully (not confirmed) - so might that be the sons record instead?

I meant in general, those years werent him. RUC Historical Society will have the records, they're very terse but marriage date is recorded

shanew

In case it helps with the timeline, I'm pretty sure that RIC men required permission to marry and had to have served 7 years.

I have heard of more than one that married first in secret, and later on when they got permission married again.

I'll try an find the source for this.. petty sure it's in one of Jim Herlihy's books

Hermy

Thanks again for the replies - it all helps.

I went to the GRO last week and searched the marriage books from '64 to '69 in case Family Search had missed something but not so unfortunately.

I've searched Roots Ireland for a marriage of a John Hearne and Margaret Smith (all years/ all counties) and there is just one match - a marriage in Co. Meath in 1857 - but I'm not about to give them €25 for something that may not be relevant.

pinkypinky

Hermy wrote: »

Thanks again for the replies - it all helps.

I went to the GRO last week and searched the marriage books from '64 to '69 in case Family Search had missed something but not so unfortunately.

I've searched Roots Ireland for a marriage of a John Hearne and Margaret Smith (all years/ all counties) and there is just one match - a marriage in Co. Meath in 1857 - but I'm not about to give them €25 for something that may not be relevant.

€25
It's usually a fiver a pop. Deal running this week if you top up by tomorrow by €25 you get 50 credits.

shanew

based on the Index that marriage took place in Oldcastle RC parish..

Hermy

pinkypinky wrote: »

...if you top up by tomorrow by €25 you get 50 credits.

I don't have €25 to start an account!:pac:
I just have some free searches I got a while ago.

shanew

if he's the John Hearne of Kirwan Street, Dublin that died in 1899, then the spinster Rosanna Hearne mentioned on his Will Calendar entry may be a clue.

Sister, Aunt, daughter ?

Edit - based on extracted records seems like she could be the daughter born 1874

shanew

Hermy wrote: »

......- a marriage in Co. Meath in 1857 - but I'm not about to give them €25 for something that may not be relevant.

an RC marriage from that time will probably show very little detail anyway - should show date, names of bride & groom, and witnesses. You may get addresses e.g. name of a town or townlands, but very rare to see occupations

dido2

Have you gotten one of their childrens birth certs to confirm what names they used??

You can get research certs from the GRO for €4 too

Hermy

Yes Shane, Rosanna is his daughter born in 1874 in Crosskeys, Co. Cavan. We had originally believed she was the eldest of five children, along with four younger brothers - all bachelors! I've since discovered she had an elder brother John born in 1871 and elder sister Elizabeth born in 1868.
Rosanna's birth cert records her father as being a constable in Crosskeys, Co. Cavan. Her marriage cert of 1904 records him as being a clerk (same as his will of 1899).

shanew

I think the RIC record is best way to proceed - should give you his county of birth and year of marriage, and hopefully a county of birth for his wife.

If a date turns up, and it's covered by civil registration, you might have to resort to searching under just her name on the Index for the marriage. Maybe focusing on her county of birth. It's possible that his entry was missed out, or misspelt etc. I had to resort to this process for two of mine - took a few certs but worked both times.

tanoralover

I should have mentioned Ancestry.com describes this collection as a work in progress so it's possible there are others.

tanoralover wrote: »

Name: Hearn John
Birth Date/Age: 23
Birthplace: Waterford
Marriage or Comments: Y
Enlisted: 1868 D 1898
Film #: 856065
Page #: 163B

You can rule this one out because he died in 1898.

tanoralover wrote: »

Name: Hearne John
Birth Date/Age: 19
Birthplace: Wexford
Marriage or Comments: Y
Enlisted: 1847
Film #: 856059
Page #: 125

You can rule this one out based on where he served.

Hermy

shanew wrote: »

I think the RIC record is best way to proceed - should give you his county of birth and year of marriage, and hopefully a county of birth for his wife.

Where's the best place to get that record? A Google search tells me it can cost €25 for a search of the RIC archives. Is there a cheaper alternative as funds are tight?

It's possible that his entry was missed out, or misspelt etc.

I have tried matching up using Ancestry and also on the recent trip to the GRO but so far nothing obvious. Hopefully if it turns up the RIC record will help narrow down the possibilities.

shanew

Hermy wrote: »

Where's the best place to get that record? A Google search tells me it can cost €25 for a search of the RIC archives. Is there a cheaper alternative as funds are tight?

....

on microfilm in Dublin City Library, Pearse St.

The RC parish for Cross Keys is named Denn if you want to check there for a marriage, that managed to miss civil records. Records in the NLI on microfilm Pos 5350, but apparently these have lots of gaps, and seem to be transcripts...

L1011

Hermy wrote: »

Where's the best place to get that record? A Google search tells me it can cost €25 for a search of the RIC archives. Is there a cheaper alternative as funds are tight?

I wasn't charged anything but it was quite a while ago*; and I was physically in Belfast. I'd go with Shane's suggestion.

*it was literally the first piece of genealogical source material I got, years before I bothered trying to assemble the rest of the story.

Hermy

Super stuff Shane - I'll report back if anything comes to light.

dido2

Is it possible that either John or Margaret were getting married for a second time??? If margaret was marrying for a second time it would have a different surname for her..

Hermy

It's possible dido2 but I just can't say.

Hermy

On a slightly related note I'm wondering if any of you might be able to tell me the occupation of John Monks, father of the groom on this cert, said groom being the father-in-law of Rosanna Hearne mentioned above.

shanew

I thought I was bad - that is messy handwriting

for the groom Soldier ?

Hermy

Sorry Shane - it's the father of the groom's occupation I'm wondering about.

You are right though - Frank was a soldier later posted to India where his two daughters were born. I believe he died there in 1889 although I haven't yet picked up the cert to confirm this.

shanew

trying to read the rest to get a feel for it.... nothing that looks similar to the first letter of the groom's father's occupation that I can see. Thought it might be an S, but looks nothing like the S in soldier, but could be squashed S ?

In the rest of it there seems to be a 'tc' a possible 'e' and at least three other letters with ascenders.. with one or more 't's

shanew

doesn't make any sense ... yet - but the start looks like ...rtche..

maybe ending with ...ed or ...el ?

Hermy

My own best guess is a stitcher but even when I enlarge my own copy it still doesn't look right.

shanew

all the other i's are dotted - so dont think there's one in there, and the last letter looks most like the other l's e.g. full, bachelor, Soldier etc

The mysterious first letter is vaguely similar to the extremely messy A in April... same kind of flourish on the cross bar

shanew

Architect ? (gone wrong...)

Waitsian

I'm terrible at hand writing analysis - I can hadly make any of that cert out never mind the occupation you want. At first glance I thought they were married in Newry, but it's County Cork isn't it? Where were they married?

Hermy

Would you believe it's Fermoy!

Waitsian

Hermy wrote: »

Would you believe it's Fermoy!

Wow. I suppose these men (and I'm assuming all Registrars back then were men) never thought that the likes of us years later would be analysing their writing so never bothered to keep it neat, more's the pity!

What's the occupation of the bride's father? I can't make that out at all.

Waitsian

Hermy wrote: »

My own best guess is a stitcher but even when I enlarge my own copy it still doesn't look right.

shanew wrote: »

Architect ?

I could be grasping at straws here but could the groom's father have been a scutcher?

shanew

found the name of the Priest for further comparison - it William Rice believe or not, a CC in the parish at the time. So this registrar does drop i dots sometimes...

Hermy

mod9maple wrote: »

Wow. I suppose these men (and I'm assuming all Registrars back then were men) never thought that the likes of us years later would be analysing their writing so never bothered to keep it neat, more's the pity!

It still goes on today - just look at prescriptions.
Yet when us humble folk fill out forms we MUST USE BLOCK CAPITALS!!!

What's the bride's occupation? I can't make that out at all.

The bride's father is a shop keeper I think although someone suggested a crop reaper.
Margaret was living in Princes Street, Fermoy when she had their first child in 1875 so shop keeper might be right.

Waitsian

Hermy wrote: »

It still goes on today - just look at prescriptions.
Yet when us humble folk fill out forms we MUST USE BLOCK CAPITALS!!!



The bride's father is a shop keeper I think although someone suggested a crop reaper.
Margaret was living in Princes Street, Fermoy when she had their first child in 1875 so shop keeper might be right.

Oops - I meant her father of course!

shanew

here's the month, which I presume is April ?, and the occupation for comparison of the first letters...

Waitsian

Architect definitely looks likely except for the crossed letter after the initial couple of letters but that could just be an error, force of habit - I know I do that sometimes!

If he was an architect, you could try a directory for the area in or around that time period, if one exists.

Hermy

Here's a link to the full size document if it helps at all.

Hermy

mod9maple wrote: »

If he was an architect, you could try a directory for the area in or around that time period, if one exists.

Part of the problem with the Monks family is that I don't know what their area was. I do know they had an association with St. Andrews Church Westland Row but that's about it.

shanew

Hermy wrote: »

Here's a link to the full size document if it helps at all.

that's definitely clearer... sticking with a very badly written Architect due to the 'A', for now, but will think about it... pretty sure 2nd letter is an r, there are 4 ascender letters - l h t and possibly d, and 3 small/wide letters o e or c, and I think some cross-bars went too far..

shanew

maybe he the priest or registrar couldn't spell it - and guessed something like - Artchetek ?

so no i...

Hermy

shanew wrote: »

maybe he the priest or registrar couldn't spell it - and guessed something like - Artchetek ?

so no i...

I think that is very likely as there is just no making sense of what is written.

Hermy

Thanks very much for the help - I'm singing off for now.

shanew

^^ me too..

possibility of an usual spelling but reasonably correct phonetic sound reminds me of one I came across years ago at school when I was called in to verify a little brother had done his homework. He had given 'Austridge' ... think about it... I prefer this to the correct spelling

Hermy

Makes perfect sense.

pinkypinky

Hermy wrote: »

Would you believe it's Fermoy!

I read it as "Hermy" and then decided that might be wrong.

Got nothing on the occupation. Looks like Yiddish!

Waitsian

pinkypinky wrote: »

Got nothing on the occupation. Looks like Yiddish!

Oi va voi!