Womens' rugby Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread

Richard Hillman

Sorry, late to this. I walked into a pub yesterday with my non rugby watching mate with the game on and even he said that the team looked so much smaller than the Welsh.

However, I do agree with the IRFUs stance of prioritising Sevens. Winning a 6 Nations Grand Slam won't do much for the growth of the women's game. Winning an Olympic medal in Sevens will though.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120404285#Comment_120404285

do not agree.

the six nations is an annual event which is televised at regular weekend viewing time in ireland.

the olympics is every 4 years in places which may not suit viewing in ireland ie los angeles in 2028. Paris is ideal but will be a fleeting experience. we need to start winning on the 7s circuit before we can consider ourselves contenders for an olympic medal. Currently if i was to predict a 7s olympic spot for us, id have us about 7th or 8th.

if you want girls to "see it, be it" your plan should not be to with for a competition that happens only every 4 years.

minitrue

If the IRFU even just said they were prioritising the 7s that would change the conversation but I don't believe they have ever said that. Even if they had they I'd be asking why they have no domestic 7s and still be questioning what they are doing with the 15s.

I'm fine with them having decided to withdraw the 7s players from consideration for the six nations though the fact they only announced it so late has me thinking that was only based on the 7s poor last day in Vancouver.

For those who can't see and asking what the problem is I'd suggest the two recent articles in the Indo for a brief introduction and the thread of threads on twitter by their author JC200022 for a more complete breakdown of all the problems. Or you can just accept that the drastic contrast in experience between our squad and the other squads alone makes it clear we have a systemic problem.

sydthebeat

the basic facts are ireland have gone from winning two six nations championships (in 2015 and 2013 grand slam) in the last ten years to being wooden spoon contenders for the foreseeable future. this is coupled at a time when participation in women's rugby is increasing, so wherever the IRFU have been doing in that interim 10 years hasnt worked. The may now point to the fact the have introduce pro contracts, but the age profile of those who took up the pro contracts can only mean that we will still be about 4 - 5 years away from being in any way competitive, should teh pro contract scheme bear fuit.

kita99

The apparent facts are (1) small FW (especially front rows) (2) lack of the abillity for getting try of back-line( they can only pass to side) (3)no box kicking by SH (4) weak tackling (almost of them look not hitting but hugging ). Why anyone in media do not raise a problem? Simply indifferent?

timothydec77

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120405281#Comment_120405281

I think that the media are afraid to say anything that is seen to be negative. They must also be seen to support the Womens game.

The Elephant in the room is the small number of adult female players. I may be wrong but it must be less than a 1,000.

Because of this the club game is weak and therefore the Provincial game is weak

minitrue

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120405039#Comment_120405039

The only part I'll disagree with is that the women's 7s team are heading for 7th/8th at the Olympics. They had a bad final day in Vancouver (no ALMC) but were 4th in the three prior rounds and had a 2nd* and 3rd in the last cycle (* as NZ and Fiji were missing). A 4th/5th finish would be the safe bet but a medal is certainly a realistic possibility. If the IRFU had actually got buy in for and thrown their weight behind women's 7s as their focus for elite women's rugby in Ireland (rather than pretty much just taking the Sport Ireland funding for it as an Olympic sport) we'd probably be disappointed with a bronze.

I'll also say that WXV 1 is going to be wild and the draw of that (or a World Cup) and the 6 nations every year is phenomenal. I'd say the writing is on the wall for the women's 6 nations to bring in promotion and relegation off the back of WXV though (justice for Spain) and the way things are going we will be first out.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120405386#Comment_120405386

we're heading for WXV 3 unfortunately.

In regards to teh 7s, come olympics time youre going to have NZ, Australia, USA and France as the forerunners, battling for the medals. Ireland are in the next group of with GB and Fiji in my opinion. Depending on the olympic draw, the only one of the front runners that i think ireland could take on any given day, is France.

But still, the point being is that would a bronze medal in a 4 year competition really grown the game in Ireland? nah. We don't even have a competitive 7s league in ireland.

Richard Hillman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120405039#Comment_120405039

The way I am thinking is that Sevens is a more "acceptable" form for nervous parents and young girls to get into the sport. Sevens can essentially become the intro to 15s.

I think games of Sevens at the Olympics is more appealing as an advertisement to the game than a cold rainy Cardiff in March. But as you said, the drawback is that it's only one every 4 years.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120405449#Comment_120405449

but simply, a parent cannot decide on a saturday morning to bring their 10 year old girl out to sevens training. Theres none there.

minitrue

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120405346#Comment_120405346

I don't know and it's probably not the adult figure but the number commonly thrown around is 8000. Any such number though has to be contextualised to it being the number we have now in the current environment fostered by the IRFU.

Calling the club game weak in isolation doesn't sit right with me. The top teams would still likely win the Interpros or Celtic Challenge and have been producing some cracking games between themselves despite the best efforts of the IRFU (who at least up until very recently have been quite demanding of them while giving them a bag of balls and a wide variety of obstacles and contempt in return). And also don't forget we now have most of our best players playing abroad (and not just the ones who are still willing and were picked in the current squad). I for one would love to see the exiles team play, especially if we can mix in the players still in the country who have "retired" from IRFU duty!

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120405346#Comment_120405346

I dont think thats true. The media isnt a PR group for womens rugby and there is plenty of criticism in print and on tv from many sources. former players. Sinead Kissane has been critical and many others.

Yes the relatively small adult playing numbers is an issue but its well above 1000. The real problem is where the players are playing. The top players are playing for far too few teams which makes the league very uncompetitive bar 3/4 teams. If you had a draft or something to spread the top players out across more clubs we would have a far stronger club game which would help prepare players far more for the provincial series which needs to expand to home and away for more games which would mean a better irish set up

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120405449#Comment_120405449

I dont think it is because if you want your daughter to play rugby it will be 15s as 7s will only be played for a very short time and any training they receive will be for 15s and focused on 15s. There is the X7s series for secondary schools and there is girls leagues and cups for schools at 10s/15s and then the club leagues and the 15s games are far more regular and played more.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120405346#Comment_120405346

nah, when you include junior teams theres on average about 3,000 adult women playing rugby full time.

There has however been a huge boom in age grade girls rugby in the last 10 years. this is a wonderful resource but, however, the iRFU seem incapable of appreciating this... with their refusal to do anything about the unfairness of the "big three" dublin teams in the AIL cherry picking the best players nationwide into their squads.

timothydec77

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120405471#Comment_120405471

I was just going by the RTE pundits.

They take the opposite opinion to you.

minitrue

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120405423#Comment_120405423

100% on WXV 3, my point was the carrot for the IRFU was to have WXV 1 (or a world cup) and the 6 nations every year and that's a 5* Michelin chef prepared carrot.

NZ and Australia are very tough asks for us to beat in the 7s but right now beating them in a one off game is insanely more realistic than beating England or France (or Italy imho) in the 6 nations. I don't think beating USA or France in a one off (7s) would be a shock, we are probably the bottom of that group of 3 but I'd say we are holding onto their coat tails and GB/Fiji are chasing ours.

I 100% agree on the final point also, both that an Olympic bronze (or even gold) now would do very little for the sport in the long run and that the lack of a 7s pathway shows it's not like the IRFU have managed to breed a 7s culture or even believe in one. To be fair (lol) afaiu they did attempt to force a 7s league on the AIL clubs but let's just say my choice of wording there and it's complete failure to get off the ground (and their failure to create a plan B when it failed) reflects how pointless the 7s Vs 15s debate is. The real debate is why does the IRFU persist in scuppering all women's rugby in Ireland and what will it take to change it.

timothydec77

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120405515#Comment_120405515

I stand corrected

minitrue

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120405556#Comment_120405556

You have to parse the RTÉ pundits words (and mine tbh) a bit more carefully. There's a gulf between the top and bottom AIL teams and the structure, scheduling and player availability also hampers it. It's nothing like what it should be but the games between the top teams are far from weak, hence what I said was that simply calling the club game weak as an isolated statement doesn't sit right with me.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120405346#Comment_120405346

+1 on the media. Certain subjects are 'sacred cows' and criticism to be avoided currently. Just not the done thing or if there is criticism, it has to come from sources from within the womens game.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120405774#Comment_120405774

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120405346#Comment_120405346

you lads need to expand your media sources!

ive read and heard a lot of criticism of women's rugby after last weekends game.

criticism of the players, coaches and the IRFU. Off the ball have had two separate commentaries on it, with Quinlan and with Alison Miller. The 42 had a good conversation on it on the members podcast. Sinead Kissane had 2 articles on the game in the indo, and didnt polish any turds in them. Their associated podcast "The left wing" talked on it, though i wont listen to that particular podcast.

Mary Hanngan was pretty scathing in her article in the times.

But Coghlan is always ruthlessly excellent in these situations, never overlooking the wider issues in the running of the Irish women’s game, but never absolving the players of their own responsibilities in these decidedly grim situations, when too many are eager to exempt them from all blame, like they’re irreproachable toddlers.

id love to see these places where you lads found there was nothing negative said ......

Fotish

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120407325#Comment_120407325

Mary Hannigan hasn't been scathing at all, she is saying exactly the same as a lot of posters on here -

" too many are eager to exempt them from all blame, like they’re irreproachable toddlers."

I have not heard one player accepting responsibility , all too ready to dump on the big bad IRFU.

For example, the IRFU did not stop them from converting a try directly in front of the posts !

Caranica

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120410229#Comment_120410229

There you go again, blaming the players. There's a lot going on behind the scenes at the moment. It will come out in time.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120410229#Comment_120410229

"ive not heard".....

its hard to hear when you run around with your fingers in your ears.

Heres the Ireland coach Greg McWilliams

“If you look at the game, we didn’t lose or win the game because of our back division. We lost the game because of the power up front. So even if we had all the sevens players in the world in the backfield, it wouldn’t have made a difference to the result.

“I was really proud of the backs and how they got on. I thought Dannah (O’Brien) came on at 10, she’s 19, Aoife Dalton is 19, Natasja (Behan) is young, Méabh Deely is young. Enya (Breen) is only 23,”

“It’s easy for me to make an excuse about sevens but I don’t see that as a reason why that result happened. It’s up to us to own that and find a way to be more competitive next week.

“We’re proud. It’s hard when you’re proud. It’s hard when you come from a rugby-playing nation that are exceptionally successful.

“You feel like you’re letting them down but when the public see the road we’re going to go on now and see a group of people working hard and grafting and getting better, it will give us confidence moving forward.”

and the conversion wasnt from directly in front of the posts either. it was 20 meters from the side line.

That white line behind the kicker is the 15 meter line.

its actually in a very similar position to where a guy called Jonathon Sexton missed a penalty against New Zealand in 2013.

Lost Ormond

I posted the squad in the 7s thread but below is the squad for this weekends Hong Kong Sevens.

Kathy Baker (Blackrock College RFC)

Claire Boles (Railway Union RFC)

Megan Burns (Blackrock College RFC)

Amee-Leigh Murphy Crowe (Railway Union RFC)

Stacey Flood (Railway Union RFC)

Katie Heffernan (Railway Union RFC)

Eve Higgins (Railway Union RFC)

Erin King (Old Belvedere RFC)

Vicky Elmes Kinlan (Wicklow RFC)

Emily Lane (Blackrock College RFC)

Kate Farrell McCabe (Suttonians RFC)

Lucy Mulhall Wicklow RFC) (capt)

Béibhinn Parsons (Blackrock College RFC)

Caranica

Bigger news buried in that squad announcement!

https://twitter.com/the2ndRow/status/1640755856194035712?t=NbTRbC7JyGO3a5rv3Q79mw&s=19

minitrue

Buried is the right word as seems he was gone before the last round. Replacement is their former athletic performance person so it's not like they've brought in a top 7s coach for an Olympic run. It's all very strange and unsatisfying.

Also makes me laugh to see them assigning clubs on the team announcements but there's no easy way to check when they each last played a club game let alone when and where those clubs last fielded a 7s team.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120414106#Comment_120414106

Also makes me laugh to see them assigning clubs on the team announcements but there's no easy way to check when they each last played a club game let alone when and where those clubs last fielded a 7s team.

youll get womens ail line-ups on finalwhistle.ie

Those club teams do not field 7s team as there is no 7s competition in ireland.

There are only some invitational "festival" type competitions usually held a the end of the year ie Tullamore 7s, kinsale 7s, Killarney 7s etc which would be very much amateur focused.

personally wouldn't be dismissive of ATJ taking over the womens 7s programme. He has long standing 7s experience, though not as head coach, and would actually have a lot more 7s experience than McNulty did when he took the job.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120405515#Comment_120405515

It's the same in Munster where UL-Bohs are the dominant womens team and have almost 70 players registered but can only field 2 teams (and rarely on the same week-end).

25/30 of those players are never getting any Rugby and the game would develop much quicker if they went to other clubs.

There are lots of clubs around with thriving Underage girls Rugby , but they don't quite have the numbers to get an adult team out - Balancing the resources in the Tipp/Limerick/Clare region would like get another 2 or 3 clubs at least fielding consistently instead of any player with a hint of ability being hoovered up by UL-Bohs.

I'd suggest that they need to introduce the type of rules that exist at Under-age in terms of Club transfers to limit the poaching and try to grow the game.

minitrue

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120414345#Comment_120414345

I guess if finalwhistle do have all the line-ups I could trawl them cross-referencing but I'm too lazy for that (Vs finding/searching for each name on a stats site) just to make the point ;)

I know there is no 7s competition but wouldn't like to state as fact those clubs have never fielded a 7s team in one of those festivals as I really don't know hence "where those clubs last fielded a 7s team". If you are saying none of them ever have I'll believe you!

I didn't intend to be utterly dismissive of ATJ taking over but as you say he doesn't have head coach experience so it's not a big coup to get him which is reflected in the fact the IRFU didn't go on a PR offensive about the change. At this point in the Olympic qualification cycle I'd have at worst just said "fair enough" if they had been bringing in an elite proven 7s head coach and that was the reason for the change. Maybe the former coach wanted out or maybe he had to go and AJT was the best they could get but when they have to bury the announcement it leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120414388#Comment_120414388

yeah, we see that in our junior club as well (north midlands area leinster based)

we are actually under pressure from both side, between players joining UL in limerick or the dublin teams, if they show good potential at area and leinster level. It fair enough for them to be playing the highest level rugby they can, but as you say, its the big team hoovering up the best players to squad sizes which are huge and mean that not everyone gets meaningful rugby throughout the season.

i appreciate college is a big factor in determining where these girls play, but there has to be a change of the systems to spread the players around in a more equitable manner. ireland is not a huge country so some players should be able to play for more local teams on weekends. Maximum registered squad sizes maybe? wicklow RFC show that you can get to the highest level with a locally based team. maybe we should be looking at development provincial area squads to a level to be competitive and create a 2 pool AIL women's league? Of course, this would mean the top teams releasing their grip on the best players.

if you look at a map of ireland you see that all the AIl teams are based pretty much around the edges of the country in cities, which is fair enough, but there should be much more concerted effort to get a couple of midland based teams, say Athlone and Naas maybe, even Tullamore.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120414404#Comment_120414404

yeah i broadly agree with all of that. I dont know either of those AIL team specifically entered teams into those 7s competitions. Id be surprise dif they did under their official banner. They are mostly just fun get togethers.

i agree that the changing of the 7 head coach mid season and mid olympic qualification is not preferable, but maybe its just as simple as they said ie Aidan McNulty has left to take up a position in Munster rugby which became available after Ian Costello moved up the ladder. There is no suggestion that he "had to go" for any reason.