Child removed from Roma gypsies-This time in DUBLIN *Mod Warning Post #1*

RustyNut

el pasco wrote: »

Well if you can find it out first why not post it up then

I can't find it if it doesn't exist. I could be wrong, wouldn't be the first time.

TommyKnocker

el pasco wrote: »

So therefore an Irish passport would NOT be in date for the child in question
Would it still be legal to use?

If they are using a Romanian passport and the same rules apply therefor would it be legal as ID???

How or why would you assume that the passport would be out of date and not be legal. The legality would depend on what was meant by journalists when they reported that the passport provided contained the photo of a baby. I know folks who would describe their 3 yr old as their baby.

As there were no clear details that I have seen at least as to how old the "baby" in the passport photo was, I would personally not speculate on the passports validity.

I assume it's an Irish passport as I believe that I read that the girls parents were living in tallaght for 10 yrs and in Ireland longer than that. As the girl was born in Ireland she is an Irish citizen and entitled to an Irish passport, so I assume this this is what she would have had, but I could be wrong.

To obtain an Irish passport the parents I believe would have had to get the form signed by a witness (Priest etc) and then by a guard at their local station. So apparently at no time during this process were any suspicions raised about them being the girls parents. But none of this seemed to count for anything when the child was removed from her home and parents.

SterlingArcher

TommyKnocker wrote: »

How or why would you assume that the passport would be out of date and not be legal. The legality would depend on what was meant by journalists when they reported that the passport provided contained the photo of a baby. I know folks who would describe their 3 yr old as their baby.

As there were no clear details that I have seen at least as to how old the "baby" in the passport photo was, I would personally not speculate on the passports validity.

I assume it's an Irish passport as I believe that I read that the girls parents were living in tallaght for 10 yrs and in Ireland longer than that. As the girl was born in Ireland she is an Irish citizen and entitled to an Irish passport, so I assume this this is what she would have had, but I could be wrong.

To obtain an Irish passport the parents I believe would have had to get the form signed by a witness (Priest etc) and then by a guard at their local station. So apparently at no time during this process were any suspicions raised about them being the girls parents. But none of this seemed to count for anything when the child was removed from here home and parents.

Let's assume so tom... Let's assume the guards were right the girl was not theirs, but they went away till the knew for sure.... The kidnappers now panicked do something stupid...

Do you take the chance of the kidnappers doing something stupid with nothing to lose.....

Or do you risk ruffle some feathers...

I know the difference of which one has actual life or death consequences...

who_ru

more tips from The Gardai

http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2013/10/23/parents-urged-to-check-underneath-childrens-beds-for-roma-gypsies

constance tench

el pasco wrote: »

You can change the surname of a child but it must be registered with the state

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth_family_relationships/problems_in_marriages_and_other_relationships/changing_your_name_by_deed_poll.html

I will look up at using an Irish version of your name if it was in English first

Never mind that citizens Information site ...it's a load of horse****

One can use a different name if one is known by that name for 2 years...so one can have a birth cert in one name and a passport in another.

http://www.dfa.ie/home/index.aspx?id=85759

Gatling

My name is URL wrote: »

Well then you're an idiot and a time waster as well as a shameless fcuking xenophobe.

Well done.

Seriously ,

el pasco

RustyNut wrote: »

I can't find it if it doesn't exist. I could be wrong, wouldn't be the first time.

Well it has to be some where it would be nice to know what the legal situation is

el pasco

RustyNut wrote: »

I can't find it if it doesn't exist. I could be wrong, wouldn't be the first time.

TommyKnocker wrote: »

How or why would you assume that the passport would be out of date and not be legal. The legality would depend on what was meant by journalists when they reported that the passport provided contained the photo of a baby. I know folks who would describe their 3 yr old as their baby.

As there were no clear details that I have seen at least as to how old the "baby" in the passport photo was, I would personally not speculate on the passports validity.

I assume it's an Irish passport as I believe that I read that the girls parents were living in tallaght for 10 yrs and in Ireland longer than that. As the girl was born in Ireland she is an Irish citizen and entitled to an Irish passport, so I assume this this is what she would have had, but I could be wrong.

To obtain an Irish passport the parents I believe would have had to get the form signed by a witness (Priest etc) and then by a guard at their local station. So apparently at no time during this process were any suspicions raised about them being the girls parents. But none of this seemed to count for anything when the child was removed from her home and parents.

A passport would not be legal to use if it is out of date try using an out of date passport when you travel aboard or go to america
If they are not Irish nationals then they would have to have some form of valid ID and so would there child and a out of date passport would not be valid and hence not legal
Ok the age of the child when the passport was isused has no being confirmed

darkpagandeath

el pasco wrote: »

A passport would not be legal to use if it is out of date try using an out of date passport when you travel aboard or go to america
If they are not Irish nationals then they would have to have some form of valid ID and so would there child and a out of date passport would not be valid and hence not legal

Was the Birth cert out of date ?

el pasco

TommyKnocker wrote: »

How or why would you assume that the passport would be out of date and not be legal. The legality would depend on what was meant by journalists when they reported that the passport provided contained the photo of a baby. I know folks who would describe their 3 yr old as their baby.

As there were no clear details that I have seen at least as to how old the "baby" in the passport photo was, I would personally not speculate on the passports validity.

I assume it's an Irish passport as I believe that I read that the girls parents were living in tallaght for 10 yrs and in Ireland longer than that. As the girl was born in Ireland she is an Irish citizen and entitled to an Irish passport, so I assume this this is what she would have had, but I could be wrong.

To obtain an Irish passport the parents I believe would have had to get the form signed by a witness (Priest etc) and then by a guard at their local station. So apparently at no time during this process were any suspicions raised about them being the girls parents. But none of this seemed to count for anything when the child was removed from her home and parents.

They may of not have an Irish passport

el pasco

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Was the Birth cert out of date ?

A birth cert can never be out of date

constance tench

el pasco wrote: »

They may of not have an Irish passport

:rolleyes:

darkpagandeath

el pasco wrote: »

A birth cert can never be out of date

that's why i said it ...

TommyKnocker

SterlingArcher wrote: »

Let's assume so tom... Let's assume the guards were right the girl was not theirs, but they went away till the knew for sure.... The kidnappers now panicked do something stupid...

Do you take the chance of the kidnappers doing something stupid with nothing to lose.....

Or do you risk ruffle some feathers...

I know the difference of which one has actual life or death consequences...

In my opinion what should have been done should have been what was best for the child. I firmly believe that removing a child from the home and parents is not in the best interest of the child and that this option should have been a LAST RESORT when authorities were sure beyond a reasonable doubt that neither the adults in question were related by blood to the child.

From what I have read of what was reported they had spurious grounds for any such beliefe. I believe that they went with the nuclear option way to early and too quickly.

As I stated in a previous post I would expect the authorities who deal with child prpotection to be able to guage from how the parents respond to the suggestion that their child is not theirs whether they are dealing with stressed, concerned parents or with folks trying to pull the wool over their eyes.

To myself, an ordinary Joe, people co-operating fully with the authorities, doing their best to provide the required proof that the child was theirs, physically and emotionally upset at what was going on would suggest that it was at leat possible that they were not child abductors. I would also consider how the child relates to the parents. Does it look ill treated, malnourished, abused in any way etc.

If they believed that either or both of the parents were guilty of child abduction then they should have arested them and taken all under aged children into care.

If they were not over 90% sure that the girl was not the parents child, then IMHO the child should have been either left in the home with the parents, under supervision or at least one of the parents should have accompanied the child to reduce or releive any stress/tramua that the child might suffer.

In either of the above secnarios it would not be possible for the parents to do a runner.

At the end of the day a young and vunerable Irish citizen was removed from her home and parents without the authorities doing their due dilligence to ensure beyond reasonable doubt that they were in the right. I am all for child protection, but I have an issue with how this was handled.

dj jarvis

Chase Little Oxygen wrote: »

They weren't going through an airport, were they? There was no legal requirement whatsoever for them even to have a passport for the child at all. How do you not get this? They were at home minding their own business when the guards showed up and said they didn't think the kid was theirs. They produced the kid's old passport and other documents and the guards still took the kid away on the basis that it didn't look like the parents.

And you think that's grand?

sorry , but how do you know that was the case , you have no way of knowing that was the reason , you are speculating and passing it as fact
this will only be revealed when the inquiry is done, till then you have no proof of your statement

el pasco

constance tench wrote: »

Never mind that citizens Information site ...it's a load of horse****

One can use a different name if one is known by that name for 2 years...so one can have a birth cert in one name and a passport in another.

http://www.dfa.ie/home/index.aspx?id=85759

Well both the sites are government sites so the cant be saying different things

RustyNut

SterlingArcher wrote: »

Let's assume so tom... Let's assume the guards were right the girl was not theirs, but they went away till the knew for sure.... The kidnappers now panicked do something stupid...

Do you take the chance of the kidnappers doing something stupid with nothing to lose.....

Or do you risk ruffle some feathers...

I know the difference of which one has actual life or death consequences...

We can all what if but the fact remains that there never was a kidnapping, there are no kidnappers and there was no victim until the child was taken into state care.

What about the child's right not to be taken from its home and family with out every stone being overturned to make sure it is absouloutly the last option.

That is not what happened. This child was badly let down by the state, not the first and won't be the last

el pasco

darkpagandeath wrote: »

that's why i said it ...

huh???

el pasco

Chase Little Oxygen wrote: »

They weren't going through an airport, were they? There was no legal requirement whatsoever for them even to have a passport for the child at all. How do you not get this? They were at home minding their own business when the guards showed up and said they didn't think the kid was theirs. They produced the kid's old passport and other documents and the guards still took the kid away on the basis that it didn't look like the parents.

And you think that's grand?

We do not know the nationality of this child If this child is a non-irish national living here then yes you do need official ID such as a passport with you to prove who you are on you at all times this is common practice in most european countries even for nationals of their own country there are sometimes exception for children

tayto lover

Apart from being a very troubling incident for this poor unfortunate family it is also a very interesting thread.

Could people please speak the known facts though instead of makey-uppy ones so that we can actually debate the rights and wrongs of the case and learn from it.
AND please don't use a thread like this to even old scores as i suspect some are doing. That just belittles the whole thing.

RustyNut

el pasco wrote: »

We do not know the nationality of this child If this child is a non-irish national living here then yes you do need official ID such as a passport with you to prove who you are on you at all times this is common practice in most european countries even for nationals of their own country there are sometimes exception for children

What difference would it make even if it was out of date it could still establish their identity. Unless the kid deserved to be punished for having an out of date passport.

Gatling

tayto lover wrote: »

Apart from being a very troubling incident for this poor unfortunate family it is also a very interesting thread.

Could people please speak the known facts though instead of makey-uppy ones so that we can actually debate the rights and wrongs of the case and learn from it.
AND please don't use a thread like this to even old scores as i suspect some are doing. That just belittles the whole thing.

See this is the issue too much paranoid delusion's and false legal quotes

el pasco

RustyNut wrote: »

What difference would it make even if it was out of date it could still establish their identity. Unless the kid deserved to be punished for having an out of date passport.

I'm nearly sure (But I have to confirm it) That if you are living in another country you need to have a valid passport So the parents of the child could be prosecuted for not having a valid passport for their child if it was not an Irish national

I may be wrong on this but I will look it up

RustyNut

el pasco wrote: »

I'm nearly sure (But I have to confirm it) That if you are living in another country you need to have a valid passport So the parents of the child could be prosecuted for not having a valid passport for their child if it was not an Irish national

I may be wrong on this but I will look it up

Take the kids off them so.

tayto lover

el pasco wrote: »

I'm nearly sure (But I have to confirm it) That if you are living in another country you need to have a valid passport So the parents of the child could be prosecuted for not having a valid passport for their child if it was not an Irish national

I may be wrong on this but I will look it up

But what if they didn't intend to use the passport?
Mine is out of date and I haven't used it since 1996.

Do we know how long they were in the country and how long they were at the present address and why the neighbour reported his/her suspicions only now?

Smiles35

RustyNut wrote: »

Take the kids off them so.

No. Let them all stay with no id.

el pasco

tayto lover wrote: »

But what if they didn't intend to use the passport?
Mine is out of date and I haven't used it since 1996.

Do we know how long they were in the country and how long they were at the present address and why the neighbour reported his/her suspicions only now?

Different rules apply to Irish nationals living in Ireland to non-Irish nationals living in Ireland An Irish national living in Ireland does not need a passport but that may very well be the case for non Irish nationals living here
For instance if I move to many european countries I must register with the police and get an ID card but since we dont have ID crad passport are used instead

baldbear

The person who sent Paul Connolly of tv3 (Ireland's bogus beggers) the tip off via facebook that a blond kid was living near them seems to have done so out of dislike for the Roma community and not concern for this little girl.

From the post that was sent it seems they aren't Irish themselves and believe Romas steal children for the child benefits.

TommyKnocker

el pasco wrote: »

I'm nearly sure (But I have to confirm it) That if you are living in another country you need to have a valid passport So the parents of the child could be prosecuted for not having a valid passport for their child if it was not an Irish national

I may be wrong on this but I will look it up

The girl in the tallaght case was born in the Coome maternity hospital. SHE IS AN IRISH CITIZEN!!!! No requirement on the parents to have a valid passport for this child unless traveling.

tayto lover wrote: »

Do we know how long they were in the country and how long they were at the present address and why the neighbour reported his/her suspicions only now?

I believe that when the story first broke I read that they had been living in the house in Tallaght for 10 years and had been in Ireland longer than that.

losthorizon

How ironic that all this happened because of TV3 and at the same time last night they had a programme on about the terrible tragedy of families who are split up.

As another site said irony goes well over TV3s head.