Unsere Mütter, Unsere Väter

riffmongous

Has anyone else here seen this? A german made tv show following 5 friends through world war 2 and the battles on the eastern front. I enjoyed it a lot, it's a nice change to the usual anglo-centric ww2 storytelling with some good looking battle scenes and it doesn't shy away from depicting some of the everyday war crimes committed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNNUZgFNz8k

I am not sure if it possible to find english subtitles though

Cork boy 55

Where did you watch it?

tac foley

It has yet to appear - if ever - on TVs here in yUK. My wife wouldn't watch it anyhow, since it does not have Welsh subtitles. Boy, is she getting picky these days...

I've watched what you have so far posted, thanks. My Uncle Micky would have liked it, maybe. He really didn't talk much about the war, except to have ambivalent feelings about the 'Amis'. They stole all his belongings - watch, medal ribbons and so on, even when they gave him battlefield first-aid, but also sent him the yUK, where he spent the rest of his life in comparative ease.

tac

tac foley

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

Where did you watch it?

Try Vienna, like it reads on his sidebar.

tac

riffmongous

Well I didn't want to post too much more incase of spoilers if anyone does decide to watch it. Yes I saw it over here on tv, but it can be found online if you google it, but unfortunately I can't say much more about that here on boards. It's three 90 minute episodes, if you have basic German you should be able to follow it without too much trouble.. or you can just flit around through the battle scenes.

It also depicts the polish resistance fighters in the countryside as being anti-jewish, apparently it caused a lot of trouble over in poland

Edit: It's known as Generation War in the english speaking world according to wiki

boomchicawawa

Haven't watched it yet, but it seems to have created some controversy on the history forum I'm a member of whereby the historical accuracy is questioned by some and the fact that some of the German characters are portrayed too sympathetically by others, but it does get many good reviews also.

Here's their views
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=197588

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=198627


Personally, I'd like to watch it and decide for myself.

tac foley

What's to spoil? They came second - that's history.

tac

riffmongous

tac foley wrote: »

What's to spoil? They came second - that's history.

tac

It's about one of the other groups involved

riffmongous

boomchicawawa wrote: »

Haven't watched it yet, but it seems to have created some controversy on the history forum I'm a member of whereby the historical accuracy is questioned by some and the fact that some of the German characters are portrayed too sympathetically by others, but it does get many good reviews also.

Here's their views
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=197588

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=198627


Personally, I'd like to watch it and decide for myself.

Hm, well it shows them killing a lot of innocent people that's for sure, I see people complain mostly about the fact that neither of the (two) soldiers were sadistic enough but I think that would be more playing to stereotypes, they certainly do kill a lot of people just not because they want to. There are also plenty of sadistic germans in there too, they are just not the main characters.

Plus it's not a documentary, it's about how the war affected and changed the five friends. The development of Friedholm I found to be quite good, right up until the end.

Manach

Thanks for the heads up on this. The only German films I've viewed of WWII were 'Downfall' and as a secondary issue in the excellent 'Miracle of Berne'.

riffmongous

Manach wrote: »

Thanks for the heads up on this. The only German films I've viewed of WWII were 'Downfall' and as a secondary issue in the excellent 'Miracle of Berne'.

I never heard of the The Miracle of Bern before, the story sounds quite interesting, I will give that a look myself later thanks.

BlaasForRafa

Manach wrote: »

Thanks for the heads up on this. The only German films I've viewed of WWII were 'Downfall' and as a secondary issue in the excellent 'Miracle of Berne'.

You've not watched Das Boot?

I'll have to track this series down and have a look. As regards criticism of the series, I guess not all people realise that not all germans were nazis and they weren't all ruthless baby-killers.

Dr Strange

Here's some info on it. Glad it will be shown with English subtitles later this year so my English-speaking friends can watch it too. Saw it in Berlin earlier this year and I think that along with Das Boot and Der Untergang (Downfall) it is one of the better films/series depicting what people went through, particularly ordinary Germans.

I am glad that I was able to get most of my grandfather's and great uncles' stories about their time in various branches of the German armed forces during WWII. They were more open about it than some of my classmates grandparents/family members and I managed to retain most of the information. Will have to write it down so it doesn't get lost.

Anyway, here's a Wikipedia entry for the series , which will be called Generation War in the English version:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_War

Also worth a watch is Heimat (A German Chronicle):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heimat_(film)

Tony EH

boomchicawawa wrote: »

Haven't watched it yet, but it seems to have created some controversy on the history forum I'm a member of whereby the historical accuracy is questioned by some and the fact that some of the German characters are portrayed too sympathetically by others, but it does get many good reviews also.

Here's their views
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=197588

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=198627


Personally, I'd like to watch it and decide for myself.

That site has taken a severe nosedive from the heights it used to reach a decade ago. I wouldn't take too much stock in what a lot of people have to say over there to be honest.

As for the show, I have "acquired" it, but have yet to watch it. But, I've heard both good and bad things about it. I've no doubt that it suffers from the usual cliches and stereotypes, but to a "lesser" extent than other shows.

But given how TV and film have portrayed the German soldier in the past, I won't be holding my breath for anything earth shattering.

boomchicawawa

I agree totally about 'Das Boot' I have the full mini series, 6 hours ! I appreciated the extra scenes that even the directors cut had left out. I would also recommend 'Stalingrad' made in 1991, I've only seen it on you tube, it was hard to find a version with English subtitles but well worth looking for, again the theme is the futility of war and the hardship of fighting on the Eastern Front. 'The Downfall' is of course a classic as it tries to be as authentic as it can with the story of the last days of the 1000 year Reich.

Growing up with the 'Hollywood' version of the war made me thirst to see things 'from the other side'. I just got sick of seeing 'GI Joe' win the war singlehandedly, the only Germans in these films were the sadistic, evil Gestapo types, with scars and leather coats, the only smiles on their faces were when they were stubbing out their cigarettes on poor GI Joes head when he was tied to a chair as Fritz barked ' Ve have Vays of making you talk' It was enough to send all right thinking males in the western world into a frenzy of indignation at poor GI Joes plight, from a female point of view, I was always a bit torn, while I felt sorry for poor Joe, I couldn't help thinking that Fritz looked quite dashing in his 'Hugo Boss' ensemble' :P Ah Wimen !

Latterly of course, in my opinion, Hollywood redeemed itself with Schindlers List, Saving Private Ryan and The Pianist. This new series would interest me, I know the Germans have struggled with how to portray this painful period of their history, I think they are the hardest on themselves, each film brings out a clammer of dissenting voices from their own people. I couldn't bear to watch the English dubbed version, for me it takes away from the authenticity, I hope a subtitled version will be on a home channel soon.

Dr Strange

boomchicawawa wrote: »

... the only Germans in these films were the sadistic, evil Gestapo types, with scars and leather coats ...

The reason why the Germans have scars in these films is that it was and (still is in some old university fraternities) a "badge of honour" and shows that you have not only attended university but were part of a university fraternity with strict rules. It was a type of duelling which took place between fraternity brothers, but not because of any insult like other duels.

So, at the time, as well as WWI, most German soldiers with a scar would actually be officer class. Here's an English explanation on Wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dueling_scar

riffmongous

Preusse wrote: »

The reason why the Germans have scars in these films is that it was and (still is in some old university fraternities) a "badge of honour" and shows that you have not only attended university but were part of a university fraternity with strict rules. It was a type of duelling which took place between fraternity brothers, but not because of any insult like other duels.

So, at the time, as well as WWI, most German soldiers with a scar would actually be officer class. Here's an English explanation on Wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dueling_scar

The Burschenschaften that still exist have quite a bad reputation in Austria amongst all non right wing people. As far as I have heard some of the groups still do some duelling



http://www.heute.at/news/oesterreich/wien/art23652,847435

boomchicawawa

Otto Skorzeny comes to mind, but as he was W.SS I'm sure the Prussian 'Von's' looked down their nose at him, I think he got his scars duelling all the same. What about the 'monocles' that were another Hollywood must have , any tradition with them ?

Cork boy 55

It [Unsere Mütter, Unsere Väter] is going to be on BB2
Link is from August it says "later this year."


John Plunkett
The Guardian, Sunday 18 August 2013 18.44 BST

BBC2 to air acclaimed German drama series Generation War
Dubbed a 'German Band of Brothers', series is groundbreaking, violent depiction of five friends during period 1941-1945

Link to guardian

statesaver

It's on RTE 2 next Sunday. Happy fooking days

HansHolzel

tac foley wrote: »

What's to spoil? They came second - that's history.

tac

"During the war of 1914-18 the English working class were in contact with foreigners to an extent that is rarely possible. The sole result was that they brought back a hatred of all Europeans, except the Germans, whose courage they admired. In four years on French soil they did not even acquire a liking for wine. The insularity of the English, their refusal to take foreigners seriously, is a folly that has to be paid for very heavily from time to time."

George Orwell, England Your England, 1941

boomchicawawa

Tks a mill for the tip ! Will set my series link as we speak :cool:

boomchicawawa

statesaver wrote: »

It's on RTE 2 next Sunday. Happy fooking days

Can't find it !!! where did you get the info, could it be the following Sunday ?

statesaver

RTÉ Two, Starts Sunday 17th November, 9.00pm

It seems they are calling it Generation War in non German speaking countries and not Unsere Mütter, Unsere Väter.

http://www.rte.ie/mediasales/television/programming-rtetwo-highlights.html#war

boomchicawawa

Oh God, I'm getting a bad feeling on this...do you think they have dubbed it into English !!!!!

riffmongous

boomchicawawa wrote: »

Oh God, I'm getting a bad feeling on this...do you think they have dubbed it into English !!!!!

God I would hope not

boomchicawawa

That would really take away from the enjoyment for me.....fingers crossed, but the name change is ominous..........:(

statesaver

Pretty sure it will be subtitled.

Name change is probably done because most people will not know what Unsere Mütter, Unsere Väter means.

Don't think we've anything to worry about

boomchicawawa

I'll hold you to that !!

riffmongous

The BBC article where it talks about their plans to show it says it will be subtitled

tac foley

I guess it's because calling it 'Our mothers, our fathers' does not easily roll off the tongue.

The name is also rather odd, but I'm assuming that the title reflects the standpoint of present day Germans, whose fathers and mothers are represented in the series.

tac

boomchicawawa

Ok...I won't panic...but kudos to RTE if they show it at that time with an English title in its original format ! getting excited again....!

riffmongous

tac foley wrote: »

The name is also rather odd, but I'm assuming that the title reflects the standpoint of present day Germans, whose fathers and mothers are represented in the series.

tac

Yeah I think so, particularly since a lot of people might not actually know the lives and stories of their parents and relatives from the war period, as it is not discussed.

tac foley

My late Uncle Micky, who went through the war as a signaller in the Wehrmacht, was an orphan, so he had nobody to remember him except us, after he died in 1980.

tac

riffmongous

tac foley wrote: »

My late Uncle Micky, who went through the war as a signaller in the Wehrmacht, was an orphan, so he had nobody to remember him except us, after he died in 1980.

tac

You said he didnt talk about his wartime much right? I wonder how much knowledge has been lost because people could not or did not want to talk about it.

boomchicawawa

I have a friend in Germany who is trying to find out about his grandfathers service but his grandmother refuses to give permission for him to see the relevant files, his GF served over 11 years in Soviet captivity at wars end and was one of the 'lucky' ones to come back alive. My friend says that when he drank too much, he got morose and cursed the fact that his youth was lost.

Its only now, when he has passed away that my friends curiosity is peaked to find out more. He only remembers bits of the stories that he had no interest in when he was young, but he suspects he was given incorrect information and is frustrated by the red tape that prevents him for accessing the files.

But maybe Grandma knows best in this case

tac foley

That's right. He said that it was all in another life, and left it at that. His old life ended in a ditch at the side of a Highway 57 outside MG on March 1st, 1945, and after that, it was all new. I respected that decision, and never pestered him, even when I was much younger. When we lived in Rheindahlen I used to drive along the road where he had been wounded and left to die, and often wondered where exactly it had been. He thought it was pretty amusing, but never took up our offer to take him back to see the place - I only asked him the one time. He never ever went back to Germany after he arrived in England - in fact, as far as I know, he never ever left England or Wales in the thirty-five years he had left.

My two uncles in Canada never talked much either - both had gone ashore on D-Day, carrying their bicycles over their shoulders. If you look at the famous photo of Canadian troop disembarking, two of them might just have been Tom and Geoff. Geoff died in '74 in a farming accident, and Tom is now 91, and still very lively. Both got written up for medals - Geoff was a sniper - but in both cases all the officers who could have passed the rep on got killed.

tac

HansHolzel

In Günter Wallraff's Von einem der auszog und das Fürchten lernte (1970), Wallraff meets a strange guy on the roof of a heavy industry plant who's a Stalingrad survivor and (post-war) an ex-miner.

To the undercover reporter's astonishment the man nostalgically says of the Russian campaign that those were the days, always on the move, and then rhetorically asks what chance would a guy like him get to go abroad, apart from that.

When asked by the amazed Wallraff if the other stuff (i.e. the filth, cold and death) wasn’t terrible, the man just maintains it wasn’t as bad as the pit.

boomchicawawa

I can understand that the sense of comradeship must have been very appealing for veterans as well and to go through those intense experiences and then return to civy street must have been difficult for them and their families. Its the social history of those times that I find most interesting, the ordinary people thrown into extra ordinary situations. I find the biographies of these individuals captivating,from Holocaust survivors to front line fighters and all the people in between.

Morzadec

This sounds brilliant, will definitely try to watch this.

Not in Ireland/Britain at the moment so if anyone comes across an online link with English subtitles please let me know!

Jawgap

Starts tonight on RTE2......,

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/band-of-brüder-a-german-view-of-wartime-1.1343285

boomchicawawa

Subtitles ...Yay!

tac foley

I'm intrigued, so please tell me what languages you learn in school.

tac

boomchicawawa

I was taught to read English !;)

tac foley

Ah.

tac

BowWow

Now available on the RTE Player.

Cork boy 55

As a television drama its a very good show and worth watching

From a military history/cinematography point of view its not that good is it to be honest, I did not read much going into it other than it was a "blockbuster" and Germany's version of "band of brothers" and the trailer made it look like a large production, but ...
The scale is quite small and the budget appears to quite limited
There's very little action and never appears to be more than a squad on screen at anyone time, I think the only major Military hardware featured was the back of a truck Not exactly the epic portrait of operation Barbarossa i was excepting to see, I don't get the little brother character either.

Still good show but different to what I was expecting.

Manach

The production values are geared to the core 5 characters and their differing experiences of the war. Having finished accounts of the Ostfront in text, it is fairly grim correlation of the clean and crisp strategy employed to that of the bloody unit actions of that war .

boomchicawawa

Well it held my interest, but for me it was more about the characters. Id be interested to see how they develop. The younger brother may become brutalised by war, we saw signs that he was hardening his attitude when he suggested the peasants were sent through the mine field. The nurse was slightly off kilter, she was firm friends with Victor the Jewish character, yet she outed the Jewish doctor without hesitation only regretting it at the last minute. Victors girlfriend's character could have been handled a bit better, she was madly in love one minute and then jumping into bed with the Nazi Dorn the next, I know he was going to further her career and she used him to get Victor an exit visa, but it was done in a very disjointed way in my opinion.

The main character Wilhelm was the one that I could understand the most, he was ashamed of his brothers alleged cowardice but yet he loved him. He was a loyal soldier, yet he was outraged by the killing of the young Jewish girl. He was not happy that he was ordered to shoot the Russian commissar, but he did it even though the audience were left wondering if he would do it. This had a real ring of authenticity about it. I'm looking forward to seeing what happens to each of them. I understand your disappointment 'Cork Boy' but I think its more about 5 people caught up in the drama of war and not a 'war movie' as such, but from a personal female point of view it ticked all the boxes!

Snickers Man

Discussion thread on this over on the TV channel. Most people pissed off with the bloody awful subtitling, which, it appears even RTE has apologised for.

Sentences left unfinished. Translations missed etc.

I think it's promising so far, and as boomchicawawa says, it's more about the perspectives of the five main characters than the blockbuster battle of the Boys Toys that some might have been expecting.

Maybe I'm a bit biased. Anything with Katharina Schuttler (Greta) in it is worth watching, IMHO.

boomchicawawa

Maybe I'm a bit biased. Anything with Katharina Schuttler (Greta) in it is worth watching, IMHO.[/quote]


We'll cut a deal....you can have Greta and I'll look after Dorn ! Dear God why do I find handsome bad boys in uniform so appealing ...it's a curse ) lol. I bet he'll become even more evil lad I'll be backtracking next week. I agree about the subtitles . I even knew we were not getting the full translation. The same was said of 'das boot'.