Why are UPC allowed to carry UTV/Itv channels on EPG but not sky/Eircom?

Peter Rhea

irishfeen wrote: »

You need at least the cheapest package from sky (I think) to get a card.

That would be subscription, not free-to-view. Cancel the sub. & you lose RTE & the other Irish channels. Only free RTE on satellite is Saorsat on Eutelsat Ka-Sat @ 9 degrees east.

irishfeen

Peter Rhea wrote: »

That would be subscription, not free-to-view. Cancel the sub. & you lose RTE & the other Irish channels. Only free RTE on satellite is Saorsat on Eutelsat Ka-Sat @ 9 degrees east.

My bad, technically I suppose you are right as you can't get a card without a subscription (I think)

Peter Rhea

irishfeen wrote: »

. . . you can't get a card without a subscription (I think)

I know you can't get a card without a sub. & even if you get the card, it's no use unless you keep paying the sub.

irishfeen

Peter Rhea wrote: »

I know you can't get a card without a sub. & even if you get the card, it's no use unless you keep paying the sub.

Ha OK, message received :pac:

The Cush

icdg wrote: »

This is really one for the eFibre thread, but to go OT, I wouldn't see that way, for the moment anyway - the exchanges capable of running this service, for the moment, are likely to be mainly in cities and large towns, whereas most MMDS customers would be rural based.

I agree with you there. A neighbouring rural exchange is due to be upgraded in early 2014, the area is well served by MMDS from both Woodcock Hill and Keeper Hill (N. Tipp) based on the number of MMDS aerials. In areas like this Eircom TV could be an easy replacement in the next 2 1/2 years.

irishfeen

The Cush wrote: »

I agree with you there. A neighbouring rural exchange is due to be upgraded in early 2014, the area is well served by MMDS from both Woodcock Hill and Keeper Hill (N. Tipp) based on the number of MMDS aerials. In areas like this Eircom TV could be an easy replacement in the next 2 1/2 years.

Our bordering exchange (cut off within 2 miles of our house) has already been upgraded to fibre... I think you will see a conciliation of what they have now planned, the amount of new exchanges upgraded after current plans will probably be very little - might never be upgraded.

The Cush

The Cush wrote: »

I remember some dispute raised in the Dáil at the time as some channels were withdrawn.

Just found this on the Oireachtas website, from 1993.

http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/Debates%20Authoring/DebatesWebPack.nsf/takes/dail1993042700011?opendocument

In recent years Cablelink has been paying copyright holders for the relay of the UK terrestrial services, the normal UTV, BBC services, roughly the equivalent of 10p per subscriber per channel per month. The Sky Corporation's initial demand was for 30p per month per subscriber per channel, which would have meant an annual payment of the order of £1.2 million.

...

According to Cablelink, they had decided on a commercial basis that while they did not wish to lose Sky 1 and Sky News they should not pay more for the services than they pay in respect of the terrestrial channels. Accordingly the company was not prepared to offer more than 10p per channel per subscriber per month for Sky 1 and because Sky News is a dip-in service it was felt that less should be paid in respect of this service.

irishfeen

The Cush wrote: »

Just found this on the Oireachtas website, from 1993.

http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/Debates%20Authoring/DebatesWebPack.nsf/takes/dail1993042700011?opendocument

So it would require sky to pay UTV to appear on the EPG? (if the same rules apply)

irishfeen

irishfeen wrote: »

But that wouldn't still explain UTV saying they are being prevented due to rights issues (even though they say they want to) ... if they would have rights issues on Sky then they have rights issues on UPC at the moment (it should not matter when they were first on the platform)

*cough* TV3 *cough*

RTÉ Relays/Cablelink/UPC had UTV for over 20 years before TV3 ever existed.

The Cush

irishfeen wrote: »

So it would require sky to pay UTV to appear on the EPG? (if the same rules apply)

Does Sky cover BBC NI's costs to appear on the Sky Ireland epg???

irishfeen

Karsini wrote: »

*cough* TV3 *cough*

RTÉ Relays/Cablelink/UPC had UTV for over 20 years before TV3 ever existed.

But wouldn't you think TV3 would get UTV and the ITV channels removed from UPC too due to the same "rights issues"?

irishfeen

The Cush wrote: »

Does Sky cover BBC NI's costs to appear on the Sky Ireland epg???

From what I remember they do...??

irishfeen

irishfeen wrote: »

But wouldn't you think TV3 would get UTV and the ITV channels removed from UPC too due to the same "rights issues"?

Well they managed to do it with ITV2/3/4 on UPC at one stage. I think the legacy of having UTV on the UPC system works to their advantage.

irishfeen

Karsini wrote: »

Well they managed to do it with ITV2/3/4 on UPC at one stage. I think the legacy of having UTV on the UPC system works to their advantage.

Still doesn't really make sense though... if it is true that sky could pay to by-pass rights issues then I am very surprised that they haven't done it.

icdg

irishfeen wrote: »

Still doesn't really make sense though... if it is true that sky could pay to by-pass rights issues then I am very surprised that they haven't done it.

Just to say that the version of ITV4 on UPC has all sports programmes blocked - every last one of them, rights or no rights. And that's a good portion of ITV4's schedule. This leads to some mad consequences whereby ITV's decision whether or not to show any particular sports programme on ITV or ITV4 determines whether or not UPC viewers can see it. Premiership Rugby highlights are blocked on their first showing on ITV4 but apparently it is okay for us to watch the late repeat on ITV! Some of these sports have no other UK or Irish broadcaster which makes it even more infuriating.

The Cush wrote: »

Just found this on the Oireachtas website, from 1993.

http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/Debates%20Authoring/DebatesWebPack.nsf/takes/dail1993042700011?opendocument

That's a reference to the infamous dispute between Cablelink and BSkyB over carriage fees for Sky One and Sky News, that lasted between 1992-1994 and left Cablelink viewers without the channels for two years. Famously Cablelink kept announcing "the Return of Bart Simpson" (this being at the height of the Simpsons popularity, and at a time when Sky One was the only channel that showed the programme in the UK and Ireland) prematurely, before the deal was finally done. Screensport had closed not too long before and coupled with the Sky dispute this left a big hole in the Cablelink line-up.

irishfeen

icdg wrote: »

Just to say that the version of ITV4 on UPC has all sports programmes blocked - every last one of them, rights or no rights. And that's a good portion of ITV4's schedule. This leads to some mad consequences whereby ITV's decision whether or not to show any particular sports programme on ITV or ITV4 determines whether or not UPC viewers can see it. Premiership Rugby highlights are blocked on their first showing on ITV4 but apparently it is okay for us to watch the late repeat on ITV! Some of these sports have no other UK or Irish broadcaster which makes it even more infuriating.

At least we don't have them problems on sky, it is a balls that we can't record but at least everything is in the clear. Is it even blocked if no Irish channel holds rights for sports events?

icdg

irishfeen wrote: »

At least we don't have them problems on sky, it is a balls that we can't record but at least everything is in the clear. Is it even blocked if no Irish channel holds rights for sports events?

Yup. The instruction simply seems to be to block all sports irrespective of rights. I am almost sure ITV actually holds ROI rights for some of these events (e.g. they broadcast some PDC darts a while back, which is usually sold on a UK+ROI basis). Sometimes they forget to pull the feed, but the infamous "This programme is not available in ROI" will still be in the EPG.

irishfeen

icdg wrote: »

Yup. The instruction simply seems to be to block all sports irrespective of rights. I am almost sure ITV actually holds ROI rights for some of these events (e.g. they broadcast some PDC darts a while back, which is usually sold on a UK+ROI basis). Sometimes they forget to pull the feed, but the infamous "This programme is not available in ROI" will still be in the EPG.

Basically its like ITV 4 is not on UPC so... Does Champions League games on UTV get blocked too?

icdg

Nope. That's the thing. Nothing is blocked on UTV. So if ITV decides to show a sporting event on ITV4, it's blocked, but if it's on ITV(1), it's not. Particularly illustrated as I say by that Premiership Rugby highlights show.

SHANAbert

doney84 wrote: »

Don't think RTE2 HD is available through Freesat.

Should have clarified that.

I have a combi box so pick up Saorview and FreeSat.

FreeSat alone picks up the english channels only

radiowaves

irishfeen wrote: »

Still doesn't really make sense though... if it is true that sky could pay to by-pass rights issues then I am very surprised that they haven't done it.

UTV has been carried on cable systems since long before TV3 existed.

Cable systems have historically been able to carry channels which could feasibly be picked up in the area with an aerial. This applies to UTV (ITV1) but obviously not to the other ITVs. They presumably are paying ITV a lot to appear on cable here.

This explains why certain events are blocked on some channels but not on UTV. And obviously if a channel has not included the Republic of Ireland in their rights negotiations (which ITV being a UK broadcaster wouldn't) the event will be blocked. Sporting rights are sold territorially so even if no Irish broadcaster has bought the rights a UK channel can't broadcast knowingly into the Republic.

And the following has been posted before but seems to not constant re-iteration on this site!

Free to air means a signal with no encryption applied and can be received with the suitable equipment.

Free to view means the signal has been encrypted but needs extra hardware (usually for a once-off payment but not always) to receive it. The hardware could be a special receiver, a card, or both.

Subscription TV means channels with encryption that require a recurring payment to receive them. Sky have made great use of the term "bonus channels" over the years to describe the Irish channels (and others). This leads to a lot of confusion.

Peter Rhea

SHANAbert wrote: »

I have a combi box so pick up Saorview and FreeSat.

FreeSat alone picks up the english channels only

This is Freesat: http://www.freesat.co.uk/what-is-freesat

There are no Freesat combi boxes.

radiowaves

SHANAbert wrote: »

FreeSat alone picks up the english channels only

Retune mate. There are quite a few Scottish, Welsh & Northern Irish FTA channels too. There are even a few in other languages but these might not interest you.

Johnboy1951

Originally Posted by icdg
Just to say that the version of ITV4 on UPC has all sports programmes blocked - every last one of them, rights or no rights. And that's a good portion of ITV4's schedule. This leads to some mad consequences whereby ITV's decision whether or not to show any particular sports programme on ITV or ITV4 determines whether or not UPC viewers can see it. Premiership Rugby highlights are blocked on their first showing on ITV4 but apparently it is okay for us to watch the late repeat on ITV! Some of these sports have no other UK or Irish broadcaster which makes it even more infuriating.

irishfeen wrote: »

At least we don't have them problems on sky, it is a balls that we can't record but at least everything is in the clear. Is it even blocked if no Irish channel holds rights for sports events?

Not sure I understand this ..... ITV channels are FTA on satellite and recordable.

Is this referring to some Sky STB limitation?

So my reading of what has gone before is that

UPC has limitations in what they carry plus ongoing costs.
Sky STBs have some other limitations plus ongoing costs.
FTA STBs don't have any of those limitations with no ongoing costs.

Do I understand correctly?

I am not in a UPC serviced area so never had the opportunity to avail of their services.
I had a Sky service for many many years, but got rid of it a couple of years ago. I only had the most basic package.
I am using a HTPC and also an Ariva 120 for FTA Sat and Saorview.

Maybe I misunderstand .... if so, sorry

Although you can manually tune channels on a Sky STB, you can't record them.