Why are UPC allowed to carry UTV/Itv channels on EPG but not sky/Eircom?

irishfeen

Simple question, does anyone know why UTV/Itv channels are allowed to be present on UPC but not on the sky/eircom platform? ....

UTV states .. "We would very much like to be available on the Sky in Ireland, but unfortunately due to programme copyright issues we are currently prevented from being carried on this platform"

what possible copyright issues could be affected on sky and not UPC? ... its even FTA via other channels.

SHANAbert

sky have utv

you can tune them in to the added or extra channels option.

I did it for my folks. Google it. It's a free to air channel.

irishfeen

SHANAbert wrote: »

sky have utv

you can tune them in to the added or extra channels option.

I did it for my folks. Google it. It's a free to air channel.

Not on the EPG though, can't record any of the channels without the "trick" ... it just doesn't seem to make much sense.

SHANAbert

ya that's true and annoying!

UTV had their own digital service for a while years back in direct competition with Sky if I remember right. Maybe they charge sky too much? Free to Air boxes pick up 90% of Sky basic package including all the ITV channels. That Eircom thing is a joke. New customers need to sign up to a landline. Dinosaur stuff!

Peter Rhea

SHANAbert wrote: »

Eircom thing is a joke. New customers need to sign up to a landline. Dinosaur stuff!

Just what way were you expecting a telecom company to deliver an IPTV service?

irishfeen

SHANAbert wrote: »

ya that's true and annoying!

UTV had their own digital service for a while years back in direct competition with Sky if I remember right. Maybe they charge sky too much? Free to Air boxes pick up 90% of Sky basic package including all the ITV channels. That Eircom thing is a joke. New customers need to sign up to a landline. Dinosaur stuff!

Yeah its terribly annoying.. I'd love to know how UPC get away with having them on the EPG.. its obviously a think that could bring customers in as many might not know they are FTA. You would be thinking sky would be flat out trying to get them on the EPG like BBC/C4.

irishfeen

SHANAbert wrote: »

ya that's true and annoying!

UTV had their own digital service for a while years back in direct competition with Sky if I remember right. Maybe they charge sky too much? Free to Air boxes pick up 90% of Sky basic package including all the ITV channels. That Eircom thing is a joke. New customers need to sign up to a landline. Dinosaur stuff!

It does seem like a good value deal though.

SHANAbert

it's a 10er a month (for mainly free to air channels) on top of paying for a phoneline.

There's an initial investment to the freesat boxes but after that there's no bills.

Includes RTE2 HD, ITV HD, BBC HD, BBC1 HD and C4 HD

irishfeen

SHANAbert wrote: »

it's a 10er a month (for mainly free to air channels) on top of paying for a phoneline.

There's an initial investment to the freesat boxes but after that there's no bills.

Includes RTE2 HD, ITV HD, BBC HD, BBC1 HD and C4 HD

I think it includes Setanta Ireland too, so not that bad at all.

SHANAbert

irishfeen wrote: »

I think it includes Setanta Ireland too, so not that bad at all.

That helps certainly. freesat lacks on the sporting front.

Good internet and xbmc helps though

irishfeen

SHANAbert wrote: »

That helps certainly. freesat lacks on the sporting front.

Good internet and xbmc helps though

If it had UTV/ ITV channels on the EPG like UPC it would actually be a good deal.

The Cush

irishfeen wrote: »

I'd love to know how UPC get away with having them on the EPG..

They didn't get away with anything they have carriage agreements with all their channels and has been in place since Cablelink days in the early 90s following the TV Without Frontiers Directive and a Copyright Directive IIRC. I remember some dispute raised in the Dáil at the time as some channels were withdrawn.

Also IIRC didn't Sky do a deal with BBC which allowed them to be carried on the Sky Ireland epg, maybe they couldn't reach a similar arrangement with UTV/ITV.

irishfeen

The Cush wrote: »

They didn't get away with anything they have carriage agreements with all their channels and has been in place since Cablelink days in the early 90s following the TV Without Frontiers Directive and a Copyright Directive IIRC. I remember some dispute raised in the Dáil at the time as some channels were withdrawn.

Also IIRC didn't Sky do a deal with BBC which allowed them to be carried on the Sky Ireland epg, maybe they couldn't reach a similar arrangement with UTV/ITV.

Why are UTV saying they can't launch on sky because of "programme copyright issues" so? .. why is it ok on UPC and not sky?

The Cush

irishfeen wrote: »

If it had UTV/ ITV channels on the EPG like UPC it would actually be a good deal.

They may appear in due course

While the basic package includes BBC and Channel 4, it does not include ITV or Sky News. A spokesman said that licensing negotiations with these channels are ongoing.

http://www.independent.ie/business/technology/eircom-launches-tv-service-in-direct-challenge-to-sky-and-upc-29665613.html

The Cush

irishfeen wrote: »

why is it ok on UPC and not sky?

A question only ITV/UTV and Sky will be able to answer I guess, anything else will be speculation.

irishfeen

The Cush wrote: »

They may appear in due course

If they did have the ITV channels and we had access to fibre BB (we never will because we rural folk) i'd imagine it would be something we would consider seriously opposed to sky.

irishfeen

The Cush wrote: »

A question only ITV/UTV and Sky will be able to answer I guess, anything else will be speculation.

Seems to be a totally strange set-up... UTV (not ITV) is on UPC so obviously a deal is in place... but they can't launch on sky because they are "currently prevented from being carried on this platform". I can't understand the set up, someone is preventing them from being on sky but not UPC.

The Cush

irishfeen wrote: »

If they did have the ITV channesl and we had access to fibre BB (we never will because we rural folk) i'd imagine it would be something we would consider seriously opposed to sky.

My local telephone exchange was one of the last to be upgraded for BB in Co Limerick a few years ago so little chance of efibre around here for many, many years to come.

The Eircom TV service could be a natural replacement for MMDS customers who will lose their TV service within two and a half years time.

irishfeen

The Cush wrote: »

My local telephone exchange was one of the last to be upgraded for BB in Co Limerick a few years ago so little chance of efibre around here for many, many years to come.

The Eircom TV service could be a natural replacement for MMDS customers who will lose their TV service within two and a half years time.

We still don't have line broadband (Yes in 2013 still dial up) ... so your well ahead of us :pac:

doney84

SHANAbert wrote: »

it's a 10er a month (for mainly free to air channels) on top of paying for a phoneline.

There's an initial investment to the freesat boxes but after that there's no bills.

Includes RTE2 HD, ITV HD, BBC HD, BBC1 HD and C4 HD

Don't think RTE2 HD is available through Freesat.

radiowaves

SHANAbert wrote: »

sky have utv

you can tune them in to the added or extra channels option.

I did it for my folks. Google it. It's a free to air channel.

Sky don't have UTV. This is precisely why it needs to be tuned to Other Channels. Unless you're one of those that thinks Sky also own the Astra fleet.

irishfeen

doney84 wrote: »

Don't think RTE2 HD is available through Freesat.

Yeah its FTV not FTA.

Peter Rhea

radiowaves wrote: »

Unless you're one of those that thinks Sky also own the Astra fleet.

. . . And thinks combi boxes are Freesat:

SHANAbert wrote: »

There's an initial investment to the freesat boxes but after that there's no bills.

Includes RTE2 HD, ITV HD, BBC HD, BBC1 HD and C4 HD

Peter Rhea

irishfeen wrote: »

Yeah its FTV not FTA.

How is RTE FTV on 28 east?

irishfeen

radiowaves wrote: »

Sky don't have UTV. This is precisely why it needs to be tuned to Other Channels. Unless you're one of those that thinks Sky also own the Astra fleet.

Exactly and as sky's small print reads... "its availability is outside the control of sky"

irishfeen

Peter Rhea wrote: »

How is RTE FTV on 28 east?

Requires a card to clear it.

icdg

irishfeen wrote: »

Yeah its terribly annoying.. I'd love to know how UPC get away with having them on the EPG.. its obviously a think that could bring customers in as many might not know they are FTA. You would be thinking sky would be flat out trying to get them on the EPG like BBC/C4.

As pointed out earlier they've been on what is now UPC since before there was a UPC. Before there was even a Sky, in fact. Cable in Ireland wouldn't have existed, or at least not so early, if it weren't for them (and the BBC too, of course) - it might have been the 1990s instead of the 1970s when it developed.

SHANAbert wrote: »

UTV had their own digital service for a while years back in direct competition with Sky if I remember right.

You're possibly thinking of the Carlton/Granada backed ONdigital, later ITV Digital, but UTV had no hand, act, or part in that. However, as a direct consequence of ONdigital, the ITV companies refused to go on Sky from the off - there was a dummy channel labelled "ITV" on 103 in the UK which read "Press TV then 3 for ITV". Of course, in those days, the Irish EPG started at 106.

For me the fact that UTV (and ITV2, 3, 4) are available, if with some difficulty, on satellite has probably lessened the pressure on Sky and ITV/UTV to do a carriage deal.

The Cush wrote: »

The Eircom TV service could be a natural replacement for MMDS customers who will lose their TV service within two and a half years time.

This is really one for the eFibre thread, but to go OT, I wouldn't see that way, for the moment anyway - the exchanges capable of running this service, for the moment, are likely to be mainly in cities and large towns, whereas most MMDS customers would be rural based.

Peter Rhea

irishfeen wrote: »

Requires a card to clear it.

Where would I get one of these cards either free or for a once-off payment?

irishfeen

icdg wrote: »

As pointed out earlier they've been on what is now UPC since before there was a UPC. Before there was even a Sky, in fact. Cable in Ireland wouldn't have existed, or at least not so early, if it weren't for them (and the BBC too, of course) - it might have been the 1990s instead of the 1970s when it developed.

But that wouldn't still explain UTV saying they are being prevented due to rights issues (even though they say they want to) ... if they would have rights issues on Sky then they have rights issues on UPC at the moment (it should not matter when they were first on the platform)

irishfeen

Peter Rhea wrote: »

Where would I get one of these cards either free or for a once-off payment?

You need at least the cheapest package from sky (I think) to get a card.

doney84

irishfeen wrote: »

You need at least the cheapest package from sky (I think) to get a card.

and where on a freesat box can you insert a card?

Peter Rhea

irishfeen wrote: »

You need at least the cheapest package from sky (I think) to get a card.

That would be subscription, not free-to-view. Cancel the sub. & you lose RTE & the other Irish channels. Only free RTE on satellite is Saorsat on Eutelsat Ka-Sat @ 9 degrees east.

irishfeen

Peter Rhea wrote: »

That would be subscription, not free-to-view. Cancel the sub. & you lose RTE & the other Irish channels. Only free RTE on satellite is Saorsat on Eutelsat Ka-Sat @ 9 degrees east.

My bad, technically I suppose you are right as you can't get a card without a subscription (I think)

Peter Rhea

irishfeen wrote: »

. . . you can't get a card without a subscription (I think)

I know you can't get a card without a sub. & even if you get the card, it's no use unless you keep paying the sub.

irishfeen

Peter Rhea wrote: »

I know you can't get a card without a sub. & even if you get the card, it's no use unless you keep paying the sub.

Ha OK, message received :pac:

The Cush

icdg wrote: »

This is really one for the eFibre thread, but to go OT, I wouldn't see that way, for the moment anyway - the exchanges capable of running this service, for the moment, are likely to be mainly in cities and large towns, whereas most MMDS customers would be rural based.

I agree with you there. A neighbouring rural exchange is due to be upgraded in early 2014, the area is well served by MMDS from both Woodcock Hill and Keeper Hill (N. Tipp) based on the number of MMDS aerials. In areas like this Eircom TV could be an easy replacement in the next 2 1/2 years.

irishfeen

The Cush wrote: »

I agree with you there. A neighbouring rural exchange is due to be upgraded in early 2014, the area is well served by MMDS from both Woodcock Hill and Keeper Hill (N. Tipp) based on the number of MMDS aerials. In areas like this Eircom TV could be an easy replacement in the next 2 1/2 years.

Our bordering exchange (cut off within 2 miles of our house) has already been upgraded to fibre... I think you will see a conciliation of what they have now planned, the amount of new exchanges upgraded after current plans will probably be very little - might never be upgraded.

The Cush

The Cush wrote: »

I remember some dispute raised in the Dáil at the time as some channels were withdrawn.

Just found this on the Oireachtas website, from 1993.

http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/Debates%20Authoring/DebatesWebPack.nsf/takes/dail1993042700011?opendocument

In recent years Cablelink has been paying copyright holders for the relay of the UK terrestrial services, the normal UTV, BBC services, roughly the equivalent of 10p per subscriber per channel per month. The Sky Corporation's initial demand was for 30p per month per subscriber per channel, which would have meant an annual payment of the order of £1.2 million.

...

According to Cablelink, they had decided on a commercial basis that while they did not wish to lose Sky 1 and Sky News they should not pay more for the services than they pay in respect of the terrestrial channels. Accordingly the company was not prepared to offer more than 10p per channel per subscriber per month for Sky 1 and because Sky News is a dip-in service it was felt that less should be paid in respect of this service.

irishfeen

The Cush wrote: »

Just found this on the Oireachtas website, from 1993.

http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/Debates%20Authoring/DebatesWebPack.nsf/takes/dail1993042700011?opendocument

So it would require sky to pay UTV to appear on the EPG? (if the same rules apply)

irishfeen

irishfeen wrote: »

But that wouldn't still explain UTV saying they are being prevented due to rights issues (even though they say they want to) ... if they would have rights issues on Sky then they have rights issues on UPC at the moment (it should not matter when they were first on the platform)

*cough* TV3 *cough*

RTÉ Relays/Cablelink/UPC had UTV for over 20 years before TV3 ever existed.

The Cush

irishfeen wrote: »

So it would require sky to pay UTV to appear on the EPG? (if the same rules apply)

Does Sky cover BBC NI's costs to appear on the Sky Ireland epg???

irishfeen

Karsini wrote: »

*cough* TV3 *cough*

RTÉ Relays/Cablelink/UPC had UTV for over 20 years before TV3 ever existed.

But wouldn't you think TV3 would get UTV and the ITV channels removed from UPC too due to the same "rights issues"?

irishfeen

The Cush wrote: »

Does Sky cover BBC NI's costs to appear on the Sky Ireland epg???

From what I remember they do...??

irishfeen

irishfeen wrote: »

But wouldn't you think TV3 would get UTV and the ITV channels removed from UPC too due to the same "rights issues"?

Well they managed to do it with ITV2/3/4 on UPC at one stage. I think the legacy of having UTV on the UPC system works to their advantage.

irishfeen

Karsini wrote: »

Well they managed to do it with ITV2/3/4 on UPC at one stage. I think the legacy of having UTV on the UPC system works to their advantage.

Still doesn't really make sense though... if it is true that sky could pay to by-pass rights issues then I am very surprised that they haven't done it.

icdg

irishfeen wrote: »

Still doesn't really make sense though... if it is true that sky could pay to by-pass rights issues then I am very surprised that they haven't done it.

Just to say that the version of ITV4 on UPC has all sports programmes blocked - every last one of them, rights or no rights. And that's a good portion of ITV4's schedule. This leads to some mad consequences whereby ITV's decision whether or not to show any particular sports programme on ITV or ITV4 determines whether or not UPC viewers can see it. Premiership Rugby highlights are blocked on their first showing on ITV4 but apparently it is okay for us to watch the late repeat on ITV! Some of these sports have no other UK or Irish broadcaster which makes it even more infuriating.

The Cush wrote: »

Just found this on the Oireachtas website, from 1993.

http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/Debates%20Authoring/DebatesWebPack.nsf/takes/dail1993042700011?opendocument

That's a reference to the infamous dispute between Cablelink and BSkyB over carriage fees for Sky One and Sky News, that lasted between 1992-1994 and left Cablelink viewers without the channels for two years. Famously Cablelink kept announcing "the Return of Bart Simpson" (this being at the height of the Simpsons popularity, and at a time when Sky One was the only channel that showed the programme in the UK and Ireland) prematurely, before the deal was finally done. Screensport had closed not too long before and coupled with the Sky dispute this left a big hole in the Cablelink line-up.

irishfeen

icdg wrote: »

Just to say that the version of ITV4 on UPC has all sports programmes blocked - every last one of them, rights or no rights. And that's a good portion of ITV4's schedule. This leads to some mad consequences whereby ITV's decision whether or not to show any particular sports programme on ITV or ITV4 determines whether or not UPC viewers can see it. Premiership Rugby highlights are blocked on their first showing on ITV4 but apparently it is okay for us to watch the late repeat on ITV! Some of these sports have no other UK or Irish broadcaster which makes it even more infuriating.

At least we don't have them problems on sky, it is a balls that we can't record but at least everything is in the clear. Is it even blocked if no Irish channel holds rights for sports events?

icdg

irishfeen wrote: »

At least we don't have them problems on sky, it is a balls that we can't record but at least everything is in the clear. Is it even blocked if no Irish channel holds rights for sports events?

Yup. The instruction simply seems to be to block all sports irrespective of rights. I am almost sure ITV actually holds ROI rights for some of these events (e.g. they broadcast some PDC darts a while back, which is usually sold on a UK+ROI basis). Sometimes they forget to pull the feed, but the infamous "This programme is not available in ROI" will still be in the EPG.

irishfeen

icdg wrote: »

Yup. The instruction simply seems to be to block all sports irrespective of rights. I am almost sure ITV actually holds ROI rights for some of these events (e.g. they broadcast some PDC darts a while back, which is usually sold on a UK+ROI basis). Sometimes they forget to pull the feed, but the infamous "This programme is not available in ROI" will still be in the EPG.

Basically its like ITV 4 is not on UPC so... Does Champions League games on UTV get blocked too?

icdg

Nope. That's the thing. Nothing is blocked on UTV. So if ITV decides to show a sporting event on ITV4, it's blocked, but if it's on ITV(1), it's not. Particularly illustrated as I say by that Premiership Rugby highlights show.

SHANAbert

doney84 wrote: »

Don't think RTE2 HD is available through Freesat.

Should have clarified that.

I have a combi box so pick up Saorview and FreeSat.

FreeSat alone picks up the english channels only