Modern Women / Role Models?

strobe

What do you think is feminine nowadays? Has society changed femininity for the better or the worse? Are we moving towards a completely changed woman?

Who would you consider as a role model for the modern woman?

(There is a similar thread to this running in tGC and I thought it would be interesting to see the responses a companion one would get in here. Hope that's ok.)

baby and crumble

strobe wrote: »

What do you think is feminine nowadays? Has society changed femininity for the better or the worse? Are we moving towards a completely changed woman?

Who would you consider as a role model for the modern woman?

(There is a similar thread to this running in tGC and I thought it would be interesting to see the responses a companion one would get in here. Hope that's ok.)

I don't actually think that femininity necessarily has to come into it. At least not for me. But that's me.

If we're talking in general terms and about women in the public eye, I would hope that women like Kate Winslet would be the role models. Sadly I think it's more likely to be Nicki Minaj, judging on the women I see of an evening.

diddlybit

There's been a couple of surveys done on this and unfortunately Jordan and Paris Hilton are often cited as considered role models for young girls. This just makes me profoundly sad. But then it's reflective of a media that revolves around reality stars, and young girls will see how easy and quick it is to feel valued by society on how they look and how outrageous they can act, rather than on developing their talents. Getting on a reality tv show seems accessible, becoming Prime Minister does not.

Have to agree with Baby and Crumble, I not sure that femininity as any correlation with a women being a role model.

But the following two women should be everybody's role models:

Rachel Maddox
Katie Taylor
Mel & Sue (because TV needs more funny women)

I don't really do role models so I don't know
I think I would tend to find individual stories or achievements more inspirational

loubeelou

diddlybit wrote: »

unfortunately Jordan and Paris Hilton are often cited as considered role models for young girls.

I am absolutely horrified that anyone would consider these muppets a role model! Same goes for the likes of Rihanna/Miley Cyrus.

Complete media whores, the lot of em!

diddlybit

loubeelou wrote: »

I am absolutely horrified that anyone would consider these muppets a role model! Same goes for the likes of Rihanna/Miley Cyrus.

Considering that the surveys are a couple of years old now, the role models-de-jour are probably Miley Cyrus and Rihanna now

Amirani

She gets a lot of stick in Ireland (perhaps justified from an Irish point of view), but Angela Merkel is a fantastic politician, arguably the most talented around. Aung San Suu Kyi also sticks out as being a massive role model, again in the political mould.

I wouldn't really be able to come up with a role model for femininity any better than I could for masculinity. It's hard to know what each of those words means these days, given the stereotypes that have typically been associated with them. I don't think I could really find someone a role model for being particularly "manly" or "womanly".

meeeeh

Merkel's last election result was seriously impressive and I like her but I do wonder how much heavy lifting in Germany was before done by Schroeder.

As for role models, I don't know. I'm more often impressed with people (women) I meet than some celebrities that I don't really know. One of my classmates in high school was Olympic swimmer (she had some medals from European Championships) and also excellent student. I was seriously impressed by her work ethic and her attitude to others. Her sister was slightly below in swimming but was also among top ten students in maths and computer science in the country. I don't have role models but I think they were great.

As for celebrities we don't know, we project a lot of our ideas and impressions onto them and we could be completely wrong about them. I'm not so much bothered about Cyrus, Rihanna or similar than by the likes of Jade Goody, Jordan and others whose only achievement is selling themselves and their lifestyle.

WesternNight

I'm obviously in the minority, but having watched some of Katie Price's show, I actually really like her. Her public image is one thing, but there's an actual person underneath it all and if you listen to what she has to say, and how she interacts with people (her kids in particular) you might be surprised. I'm not suggesting her as a role model, as such, but I don't get the hate for her.

I also like Sinéad O'Connor. People write her off as crazy which I think is a mistake. She's breathtakingly honest and cuts through bullshít like no-one else, and it probably makes people a bit uncomfortable, but it's not a bad thing at all as far as I'm concerned.

pwurple

Writers:
Adrianna Huffington - of the huffington post.
Rowling, mega-bucks from children's books. Good on her.

Entertainment/Business:
Oprah Winfrey /Ellen Degeneres/ Beyonce - not a watcher of daytime tv or into the music, but very impressed with how ridiculously successful all of those women are at what they do.

Eng:
Ruzena Bajcsy - Professor of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science at Berkeley. Huge body of work.
I could go on here, but no-one else is into the nerdy stuff I'd say.

Politics:
+1 on Merkel, and I'd add Clinton there too probably in the political field. Mary Robinson.

Ambersky

Strobe said
What do you think is feminine nowadays?
Has society changed femininity for the better or the worse?
Are we moving towards a completely changed woman?
Who would you consider as a role model for the modern woman?

Strobe What do you mean by feminine?
The question has society changed femininity can only be answered I think, if we have some sort of agreement on what femininity is, let alone whether we think it had some sort of static attribute that once was but is now changed.

Role models for modern women is another entirely different question in my opinion to what is femininity.

I think women and men are a mixture of femininity and masculinity in differing ratios and sometimes even expressing themselves in different ratios in the same person at different times.
This is not something I have worked out completely in my own head and I certainly dont understand the generally socially accepted poles of masculine and feminine.
I think my being female and a woman can express itself in all kinds of active forms and not simply the traditional receptive or passive forms sometimes attributed to being female when those poles are described as male active/aggressive and the female as passive/receptive.
The general way men and womens clothes, interests, activities etc seem to be divided down gender lines doesnt fit for me and I think of it as a social construct rather than something natural to femininity and masculinity as such,

Legs.Eleven

Role models for me are not celebrities or famous people generally, it's women I meet as I go about my business.

I read a lot of female writers (I'm reading the new novel by Zadie Smith right now and finished a book by Carol Shields last week) and they often give a lot about themselves away through their writing.

I have to say, reading literature written by intelligent women makes me feel more self-assured in the world knowing that there's women like these knocking about and I aspire to think like they do. It's easy to forget sometimes when women like Miley and Rhianna and Britney and the rest of them are put on a pedaestal by society and lauded for taking their clothes off or being attractive instead of real talent or obvious intelligence. As far as I can see, women in modern times are praised for being hot and not much else.

It's not their responsibility to be role models to young people but it's a pity there's not more balance.

Malari

I agree, Legs. Several of my female role models are women I know through business. Hard workers who have taken a chance and been innovative.

In the public eye, I think Rebecca Watson is someone I admire. I like her attitude and I identify a lot with her.

Janelle Monae, as a musician and artist, is someone who removes sexuality from her persona and appearance. Which is not to say she is not attractive, but she shows that you don't have to be semi-naked to sell music as a young, female, good-looking singer. She lets her music speak for itself, which obviously works, as she's won several awards, been Grammy-nominated and was featured in Vogue.

Legs.Eleven

Malari wrote: »

I agree, Legs. Several of my female role models are women I know through business. Hard workers who have taken a chance and been innovative.

In the public eye, I think Rebecca Watson is someone I admire. I like her attitude and I identify a lot with her.

Janelle Monae, as a musician and artist, is someone who removes sexuality from her persona and appearance. Which is not to say she is not attractive, but she shows that you don't have to be semi-naked to sell music as a young, female, good-looking singer. She lets her music speak for itself, which obviously works, as she's won several awards, been Grammy-nominated and was featured in Vogue.

I'm really into Janelle Monae at the moment and as you say, her talent and her charisma is what got her where she is. She's beautiful (stunning, in fact), of course, but she doesn't use it to compensate for lack of talent like so many female artists nowadays.

Interesting and probably relevant to the discussion is how her sexuality has been questioned simply because she hasn't conformed to the hypersexualised version of femininity we see on our screens these days.

username123

WesternNight wrote: »

I also like Sinéad O'Connor. People write her off as crazy which I think is a mistake. She's breathtakingly honest and cuts through bullshít like no-one else, and it probably makes people a bit uncomfortable, but it's not a bad thing at all as far as I'm concerned.

Im a fan of Sinéad as well. I also think she is a fantastic poster girl for mental health issues. I was astonished at how well she looked on her recent Late Late show appearance, she looked so young and fresh! Interestingly I quite like some aspects of Katie Price also, mostly her business acumen.

Ive got a friend who is a female body builder and I greatly admire her tenacity, discipline, and commitment.

An early female role model of mine - Dr Ruth Westheimer - there was a woman who wasnt afraid to speak up - well educated, fun and a fair bit of divilment - I like her. Im a fan of Judge Judy for much the same reasons.

baby and crumble

Ambersky wrote: »

Strobe What do you mean by feminine?
The question has society changed femininity can only be answered I think, if we have some sort of agreement on what femininity is, let alone whether we think it had some sort of static attribute that once was but is now changed.

Role models for modern women is another entirely different question in my opinion to what is femininity.

This is a key point. Femininity =/= female role model necessarily. If you notice the women mentioned by a lot of folks here are not particularly lauded for their femininity (as in it doesn't matter to those holding them as role models). I have both male and female role models, and some who straddle a line between the two.

I personally don't aspire to feminine ideals. At all. I aspire to be a woman I can be proud of, in my own way. I take inspiration from many men and women to do that, like my own mother, people like Lydia Foy and Sinclair Sexsmith, and all my friends for various reasons.

Legs.Eleven wrote: »

Interesting and probably relevant to the discussion is how her sexuality has been questioned simply because she hasn't conformed to the hypersexualised version of femininity we see on our screens these days.

If you aren't highly feminine as a woman you are perceived differently. You see it time and time again- women who don't constantly ram their (man-centred)sexuality down other people throats are 'obviously' gay or at the very least questioned. If you don't define yourself in relation to men and what they think of you, you're a lesbian. I mean, I happen to be both butch and lesbian, but that doesn't mean everyone like me is!!!

Legs.Eleven

Malari wrote: »

If you aren't highly feminine as a woman you are perceived differently. You see it time and time again- women who don't constantly ram their (man-centred)sexuality down other people throats are 'obviously' gay or at the very least questioned. If you don't define yourself in relation to men and what they think of you, you're a lesbian. I mean, I happen to be both butch and lesbian, but that doesn't mean everyone like me is!!!

Yes although I wouldn't class her as butch at all. She wears in a suit in one of her videos (only one as far as I know) but she's wearing lots of make up and her hair is styled in a modern but feminine way. It's seems it's not even feminine (in the traditional sense) V butch now but hyper super dooper feminine V everything else. Most women in the real world fit into the latter category as far as I can see.

baby and crumble

Legs.Eleven wrote: »

Yes although I wouldn't class her as butch at all. She wears in a suit in one of her videos (only one as far as I know) but she's wearing lots of make up and her hair is styled in a modern but feminine way. It's seems it's not even feminine (in the traditional sense) V butch now but hyper super dooper feminine V everything else. Most women in the real world fit into the latter category as far as I can see.

I know, neither would I class her as butch at all. But the fact that a lot of people actually are is an interesting point.

strobe

Ambersky wrote: »

Strobe What do you mean by feminine?[...]

Well I suppose that's the initial question being asked, how you personally would define femininity (or masculinity as it was in the OP in the other thread).

And who you, or others, would, or should, consider as a rolemodel for that femininity.

I suppose my personal view of what I consider feminine, would relate to appearance and mannerisms more than anything. How someone looks and dresses and walks and moves etc, fairly superficial stuff. Same with the idea of masculine. With stereotypically 'butch' or 'camp' being at one end of each scale and moving further away from that in a progression towards more feminine or more masculine. So I would describe a very 'butch' woman as less feminine than average and a very 'camp' man as less masculine than average. I don't place any objective value on masculinity or femininity as I see them per se though, in general terms. My personal preference when it comes to sexual attraction for instance is more feminine women but beyond that I don't consider a woman being more feminine as being 'better' than being less feminine. If that makes any sense whatsoever...

As for the idea of a role model for femininity, as I don't really place any objective value on it (likewise for masculinity), I don't really consider it something to aspire to and so find the idea of emulating someone more feminine or masculine to be more like them, or deriving feminine or masculine inspiration from someone else, a little difficult to understand.

I get, that if you want to be a childrens writer, sighting JK Rowling as a role model. Or if you want to be a politician, sighting Angela Merkel. Or if you want to be hard working, sighting someone very hard working. But I find the idea of sighting anyone as a rolemodel for being a woman, a bit odd.

Legs.Eleven

I think most women and men have their own mind though and wouldn't emulate someone else's femininity or maculinity. It's something you're born with, surely, and the idea of putting it on seems very strange to me, although I do realise many people do for fear that they wouldn't be viewed masculine or feminine enough, perhaps by the opposite gender. I think it's something innate and I wouldn't look to role models to guide me on this one.

It's not something I give a second thought about tbh. I'm as feminine as I am and that's that really.

Malari

For me the only thing that would come close to emulating someone's femininity is admiring the way they dress and their style in general. A couple of women I know spring to mind, and while I'm not going Single White Female on it, I might keep their look in mind if I'm shopping for a specific item.

I tend to like inspirational stories about woman which don't follow the usual script about woman and their relationship to men, children, careers, women who did there own thing and It all came good.

Ambersky

I find the idea that we dont copy anyone elses idea of femininity or masculinity surprising.

Even before a child is born people are fussing to figure out whether to buy pink or blue clothes.
Friends of mine who are usually quite forward thinking have told me they would maybe put a girl in blue but wouldnt actually put a boy in pink, going out of the house anyway. There is no reason for pinkness to be associated with girls and blue for boys. The pink and blue thing is a relatively new idea. We bounce little boys on our laps and tell little girls they are so pretty thats where it all starts. Im not saying boys and girls dont have innate differences and interests, Im saying we socially guide boys and girls into what are expected expressions of femininity and masculinity within quite a limited range.

After infancy things are pretty much streamlined into the boy/girl man/woman section of clothes shops. Sure some people can and do mix it up a little as they get old enough to make those decisions and have the money for it but feminine and masculine clothing is very much a social construct.
Ideas like skirts and dresses are not for men and that they are feminine clothing that would demasculanise a man (unless they are priests or holy men of one kind or another) is an example of something totally made up and varies from country to country and from one time period to another.

We do copy what others are wearing, from a limited range of ideas and very much influenced by whatever society we live in. We may tweak it all a bit but there really isnt much difference. Look at how clothing use to differ and sometimes still does from one country to another. What women might wear in India or China or Africa can differ dramatically from what European women wear. It demonstrates that western clothing as it now is, is not the full range of all that is possible.

We think we are different from everyone else and expressing our individuality but actually we are usually dressing remarkably alike.

Ambersky

Ambersky wrote: »

We think we are different from everyone else and expressing our individuality but actually we are usually dressing remarkably alike.

That's completely different to having a particular role model
Of course we dress alike, we go to the same shops and see things other people wear and go "that looks nice I'd like one". That's not making everyone I pass by a role model

Not to mention your first line was about femininity and the rest was about clothes...

Ambersky

bluewolf said
That's completely different to having a particular role model
Of course we dress alike, we go to the same shops and see things other people wear and go "that looks nice I'd like one". That's not making everyone I pass by a role model
Not to mention your first line was about femininity and the rest was about clothes...

Im basing my posts on what has gone before kind of like a conversation
In my first post in this thread I said

Role models for modern women is another entirely different question in my opinion to what is femininity.

I then asked strobe

Strobe What do you mean by feminine?

And Strobe said

I suppose my personal view of what I consider feminine, would relate to appearance and mannerisms more than anything. How someone looks and dresses and walks and moves etc, fairly superficial stuff...............

There do seem to be two differing kinds of responses in this thread but that seems natural to me as the Op also seems to be two questions.
At the same time the question of femininity and female role models seems to be linked in the Op or perhaps that is coming from the other forum referred to also in the Op.

Jenneke87

Music: Loreena McKennit. She's so talented, humble, down to earth and clever to boot.

Film: Cate Blanchett. Probably the only actress that gets by on sheer talent instead of "being sexy" and media scandals.

Legs.Eleven

I personally wouldn't classify femininity simply by the clothes someone wears but more by their mannerisms and way of being. Perhaps we are pushed into certain gender roles by the toys were given and the clothes were put into but I think you get to a point in your life when you're on your own. I think mannerisms and your way of being override what you're wearing anyway and a lot of what is fashionable nowadays is quite androgynous anyway.

I would never copy the mannerisms of another woman because I found them more feminine, for example. Perhaps I do it subconsciously but I've never felt any need to alter this aspect of myself. I can't imagine anyone reasonably happy with themselves would do this.


I do see some women who imitate what's perceived as feminine in society today - an example that springs to mind would be some women I've met from a particular nationality and the altering of their voice to make it higher and thus more "feminine".

Ambersky

Legs.Eleven says
a lot of what is fashionable nowadays is quite androgynous anyway.

I think there are some areas fashion wise that people can apply to either gender. Women are allowed more room in this regard than men are. A follow through from infant boys dont wear pink perhaps.
Walk into any shoe store for example and on one side are the womens shoes and on the other mens shoes. No pointy heels at all for men and a small selection of the more sporty shoes runners, docs, hush puppies etc for women that are flat. The mens side and the womens side look very different. Mens shoes start at size seven so if a womans foot is smaller than this she cant go over and buy a shoe she likes from the mens side and likewise many mens feet wont fit into the womens shoes if they wanted a pair of those. It still isnt a case that when you get to a certain age you are on your own, the choices available are dictated by socially acceptable ideas about what clothes are feminine and are for women and what clothes are considered masculine and are for men. This is the kind of clothing and footwear available if you want something different you have to put a lot more effort into it and maybe get creative making your own if you have those skills.

Legs.Eleven said (about Janelle Monae)
Yes although I wouldn't class her as butch at all. She wears in a suit in one of her videos (only one as far as I know) but she's wearing lots of make up and her hair is styled in a modern but feminine way. It's seems it's not even feminine (in the traditional sense)............

Actually Janelle Monae is quite interesting as you have pointed out yourself Legs.Eleven. When she appeared in a suit there were comments and she had to have other indicators of her femininity such as make up and a feminine haircut. These things may have been well within her comfort range but I think it is interesting that they are necessary to demonstrate ones femininity.
I think that even when women do choose from the range available a more androgynous look they can find their sexuality in question and accusations of looking like a man. So I think one can choose an androgynous look but it is not a mainstream look and it is a lot harder to put together an outfit.

clairefontaine

I think female role models and femininity are two different subjects tbh.

The way I ink of role models is if you want to accomplish something or are passionate about something, then looking to others who have done things before you, and who may share parts of your identity with you, can help you on your way.

Both of my grandmothers had masters degrees for example, and this was rare for their generation. The majority of men in my family have science backgrounds. I think when you extend your family outwards,not community, even to nationality, this has a bearing on your mindset.

For example, my grandmother taught back in Ireland way before Dublin had become multi national. She had a Chinese student, about 9years old in her class, who was lonely, isolated, and not doing very well.

One day she pulled him aside and showed him all the great accomplishments the Chinese had made to civilisation and to the world. She said it completely changed him to have been shown the richness of his heritage, and that it was valued.

Legs.Eleven

clairefontaine wrote: »

I think female role models and femininity are two different subjects tbh..

You're right. A role model for femininity to me is a strange idea but role models generally I can go with.

Ambersky

Very strange thread this. It seems to have us going in different directions without knowing what it is about and repeating ourselves.
In post no 11 on page 1 of this thread I said

Role models for modern women is another entirely different question in my opinion to what is femininity.

Its been repeated a few times now by myself and others so what is it this thread is about role models or femininity or how one impacts on the other or what?

clairefontaine

Legs.Eleven wrote: »

You're right. A role model for femininity to me is a strange idea but role models generally I can go with.

You know in my highschool, we did not read one single book by a female author. Not one.

When I asked the teacher about it, he said "What do you mean? The Scarlett Letter is a woman's book."

So if you want to write, you might come out thinking its not your place, and when writing, you might feel like in imposter, that you don't belong. It's not until you get older, more independent, that you can conquer the barrier that you put in your own head, because you have been raised in the age of chivalry, waiting for permission to enter by someone holding the door open for you, when all you have to do is lift your hand, get you legs moving and walk on through.

GalwayGuy2

You know in my highschool, we did not read one single book by a female author. Not one.

When I asked the teacher about it, he said "What do you mean? The Scarlett Letter is a woman's book."

So if you want to write, you might come out thinking its not your place, and when writing, you might feel like in imposter, that you don't belong. It's not until you get older, more independent, that you can conquer the barrier that you put in your own head, because you have been raised in the age of chivalry, waiting for permission to enter by someone holding the door open for you, when all you have to do is lift your hand, get you legs moving and walk on through.

hmmm, that is quite interesting.

Legs.Eleven

Ambersky wrote: »

Very strange thread this. It seems to have us going in different directions without knowing what it is about and repeating ourselves.
In post no 11 on page 1 of this thread I said

Its been repeated a few times now by myself and others so what is it this thread is about role models or femininity or how one impacts on the other or what?

I don't think the OP thought the question through tbh. Both interesting topics but both totally separate. Suppose we can continue as we are until someone sets us on the right path... :P

Ambersky

Sometimes people dont know they need something or even that its there until its not there. People who have something are not always the best at measuring its value.
Personally I know something about not having role models. I was living with a woman as a lover before I knew about other lesbians and before there were any on Irish television, magazines or radio. I didnt even know the word lesbian at the time and had vague ideas about gay people. During this time a friend told me not to go into a particular bar because that place was full of lesbians and some old one might follow me into the toilets. I knew I wasn't like that so I deduced from that if I wasnt the kind to follow women into the toilets and I wasnt old I also musn't be a lesbian.
At that time I could have done with role models. Im using the expression role model here simply as someone who has gone before me and not necessarily as someone I have to agree with about everything or mirror myself totally on.
Without someone else to compare yourself to it can be difficult to know who you are. Its kind of like the ugly duckling story trying so hard to be a duck and failing so miserably to the ridicule and laughter of the rest of the ducks. The ugly duckling didnt fully become her/his self until meeting other swans and recognising herself in them discovered what she could be.

beks101

clairefontaine wrote: »

So if you want to write, you might come out thinking its not your place, and when writing, you might feel like in imposter, that you don't belong. It's not until you get older, more independent, that you can conquer the barrier that you put in your own head, because you have been raised in the age of chivalry, waiting for permission to enter by someone holding the door open for you, when all you have to do is lift your hand, get you legs moving and walk on through.

You know that's funny, because my experience was the direct opposite of this. The female influence was always very strong for me in literature during schooling - Harper Lee's To Kill a Mockingbird, Plath's Bell Jar and in poetry, Emily Dickinson and Eavan Boland are just a few that spring to mind.

Even outside of that, in my own reading as a child the female voice was very prominent - Irish author Marita Conlon McKenna was a favourite, or Enid Blyton; as a teenager Judy Blume, Zadie Smith, Marian Keyes etc - and an early adult/college student, with the likes of Naomi Wolf and Susie Orbach. And the list of fantastic Irish Times writers like Lara Marlowe and Kathy Sheridan who were/are very successful were a huge influence for me as well.

So it was never a case that I felt it wasn't my 'place' to write, in fact I'd say my writing voice was a lot stronger than my ACTUAL voice in those early years in huge part because of the strong female writers that influenced me - I felt entirely comfortable expressing myself in writing so much that it dictated my choice of college course and career path.

In terms of the general idea of "modern day role models" for women - I think depressingly, pop culture is increasingly branding a lack of clothes, class and skill as "female empowerment" (foam-finger-gate springs to mind, Rihanna with her soft-porn music videos and performances, Marie Claire's "icons"...Laura Whitmore? Really?), and that's a dangerous, dumb and downright offensive message to send to young girls - this idea of "be hot and overtly sexual first; anything else is a bonus".

But I think beyond that there are ample figures flying the flag across the spectrum - Christine Lagarde, Angela Merkel or Clinton in politics, Ginny Rometty or Sheryl Sandberg in business, Oprah in television (and general World Domination, love her or hate her she's been massively successful without relying on her looks), Meg Whitman in tech, the Williams sisters in tennis...pretty much every profession has a number of strong female players these days.

Personally, I find the "first woman to achieve blah blah blah" rhetoric a bit tiresome and patronizing at times and tend to admire the women I see who have just gotten on with their lives and their business without worrying about glass ceilings - be it my English teacher in secondary school, my own mother or some big powerhouse of influence and achievement like Hillary Clinton or Mary Robinson.

I never grew up thinking anything was out of my reach because of these sort of people and to this day, have a 'level playing field' approach in my own career because I see so many women succeeding around me.

Legs.Eleven

Harper Lee was female????


:eek:

spurious

Legs.Eleven wrote: »

Harper Lee was female????


:eek:

The hidden women.

Legs.Eleven

Legs.Eleven wrote: »

Harper Lee was female????


:eek:

C. and E. and A. Bell were women too :eek::P

Course ya could understand the disguises back then

meeeeh

As somebody who grew up in 80ies and nineties I don't think today's pop stars are any worse than they were then. Anybody remembers Samantha Fox or Goggle old Cher outfits? Not to mention Madonna.

And as a completely off topic point, my baby daughter has less pink stuff than her brother. Pink and lilac really suit his complection. My brother also wears plenty of pink. So whike I accept that tailoring for women and men is different, the choice of colours is a lot less limited.

clairefontaine

beks101 wrote: »

You know that's funny, because my experience was the direct opposite of this. The female influence was always very strong for me in literature during schooling - Harper Lee's To Kill a Mockingbird, Plath's Bell Jar and in poetry, Emily Dickinson and Eavan Boland are just a few that spring to mind.

Even outside of that, in my own reading as a child the female voice was very prominent - Irish author Marita Conlon McKenna was a favourite, or Enid Blyton; as a teenager Judy Blume, Zadie Smith, Marian Keyes etc - and an early adult/college student, with the likes of Naomi Wolf and Susie Orbach. And the list of fantastic Irish Times writers like Lara Marlowe and Kathy Sheridan who were/are very successful were a huge influence for me as well.

So it was never a case that I felt it wasn't my 'place' to write, in fact I'd say my writing voice was a lot stronger than my ACTUAL voice in those early years in huge part because of the strong female writers that influenced me - I felt entirely comfortable expressing myself in writing so much that it dictated my choice of college course and career path.

In terms of the general idea of "modern day role models" for women - I think depressingly, pop culture is increasingly branding a lack of clothes, class and skill as "female empowerment" (foam-finger-gate springs to mind, Rihanna with her soft-porn music videos and performances, Marie Claire's "icons"...Laura Whitmore? Really?), and that's a dangerous, dumb and downright offensive message to send to young girls - this idea of "be hot and overtly sexual first; anything else is a bonus".

But I think beyond that there are ample figures flying the flag across the spectrum - Christine Lagarde, Angela Merkel or Clinton in politics, Ginny Rometty or Sheryl Sandberg in business, Oprah in television (and general World Domination, love her or hate her she's been massively successful without relying on her looks), Meg Whitman in tech, the Williams sisters in tennis...pretty much every profession has a number of strong female players these days.

Personally, I find the "first woman to achieve blah blah blah" rhetoric a bit tiresome and patronizing at times and tend to admire the women I see who have just gotten on with their lives and their business without worrying about glass ceilings - be it my English teacher in secondary school, my own mother or some big powerhouse of influence and achievement like Hillary Clinton or Mary Robinson.

I never grew up thinking anything was out of my reach because of these sort of people and to this day, have a 'level playing field' approach in my own career because I see so many women succeeding around me.

Sure, we had those writers in elementary school. Not high school and Evan Boland or Zaide Smith either. But that was a public elementary.

How many books did we read in HS? I'd say at least 9 novels a year. So out of 36 novels not one by a female? Even I you added in three, it still looks superficial. Catholic high school. A public school may have been different.

The whole women in politics thing bugs me to no end because well...why? Why is it really that important to have more women in politics?

I would have named Annie Oakley here but the thread called for modern. She was all talent and entrepreneurship befor all the feminist BS.

Nothing is out of your reach, that is for sure, but there are still times and circumstances, where you might be made to feel like a outsider or that you don't belong. Not everyone wants to be a maverick, not everyone has the courage to be different either.

I do think that barriers are often psychological and put there in the first place by ideologies, such as feminism or men's rights.

clairefontaine

Legs.Eleven wrote: »

Harper Lee was female????


:eek:

You notice Harper Lee, JK Rowling.... Androgynous names.

Just Bloom had a female audience.

Amirani

My newest female role model:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0L0WIK2Ync

I want to be able to do that. :eek:

Da Shins Kelly

Femininity can mean so many different things, and I don't think there's any set idea of what is or isn't feminine. Not to me anyway.

As far as role models go, Janelle Monae has already been mentioned, but I think she's a brilliant role model. I discovered her a couple of years ago when she did a fcuking brilliant collaboration with Outkast just before her Arch Android album came out, and instantly thought she was so cool. Her music is music made by an empowered woman intended to empower other women, and she does it in a way that's funky and just downright cool (she's like the lovechild of Prince and James Brown). She's incredibly pretty, but refuses to commodify her body. She is where she is because she's a phenomenally talented and creative individual. It just highlights the gulf between people like Janelle and people like Miley Cyrus. If you have the talent, you don't need to turn yourself into a sex object.

She actually takes on the responsibility of being a role model too. In her interviews she comes across so well - very articulate, very enlightened, very comfortable in her own skin and very aware of the past of her people and how it relates to the future.

To be honest, I find it very comforting to know that someone like Janelle Monae is coming into the mainstream. I find a lot of pop music can be pretty depressing a lot of the time - a lot of popstars just going on about how much better they are than everyone else and trying to out-sexualize each other and out-shock each other. When you see what kids are lapping up in the charts these days, it's hardly any surprise that some kids are so messed up. They have no one to relate to, just a bunch of mediocre popstars "singing" endlessly about sex, drinking and drugs, and very few people actually saying anything meaningful. Janelle Monae is like a breath of fresh air in all of this. She's a brilliant example of just how amazing the female perspective in music can be, and she's not just an artist for women, she's an artist for everyone.

In other ways, it's quite sad too that her emergence has been noteworthy in one sense because she's not a hyper-sexualized female artist. Female artists like her should be the norm, not this extraordinary occurrence.

Here's Janelle talking about the marginalization of women in music:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipkBEZfiK-Q

And one of her songs for anyone who might not be familiar:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEddixS-UoU

Legs.Eleven

I love her music, Da Shins and I think it might've actually been you who mentioned her on here a while ago and why I checked out her stuff, so thanks for that!! I do find her music for uplifting as I go about my business. She's a cool woman and fair play to her.

Pawwed Rig

bluewolf wrote: »

C. and E. and A. Bell were women too :eek::P

And George Elliot:)

One woman I really admire is Ayaan Hirsi Ali. Whatever you may think of her beliefs she is one brave lady and has dealt with alot of crap in her life because she is willing to stand up for herself. It is something that Irish people in general could learn alot from.
I think alot of the onus is on parents to introduce positive role models into their children's lives. It is all about conversing with the kids on an intelligent level rather than dumbing down conversations to suit them. By this you can raise their awareness of societal issues other than whether RiRi will be best artist at the VMA's again.

Carlos Orange

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

One woman I really admire is Ayaan Hirsi Ali. Whatever you may think of her beliefs she is one brave lady and has dealt with alot of crap in her life because she is willing to stand up for herself. It is something that Irish people in general could learn alot from.

Standing up for ones beliefs is admirable but I'm not sure a fraudulent asylum seeker is the best example of that.

Pawwed Rig

Very few people could stand up to close scrutiny of every action they ever made. Even Nelson Mandela has done some questionable things in his time but you would be hard pressed to find anyone with a bad word to say about him. I admire her for what she has achieved in her life rather than a minor scandal mostly due to politicking in the Netherlands.

Carlos Orange

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Very few people could stand up to close scrutiny of every action they ever made. Even Nelson Mandela has done some questionable things in his time but you would be hard pressed to find anyone with a bad word to say about him. I admire her for what she has achieved in her life rather than a minor scandal mostly due to politicking in the Netherlands.

What has she achieved?

Pawwed Rig

psinno wrote: »

What has she achieved?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayaan_Hirsi_Ali

Carlos Orange

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayaan_Hirsi_Ali

Converting a middle class life in Kenya to a middle class life in the US via an asylum claim in the Netherlands is an achievement to be sure but not really one that would make someone a role model to me.