The dangers of being reclusive

Turtwig

PizzamanIRL wrote: »

The Pringles slogan is scarily true here.

Why did the family not intervene if he was visibly malnourished?

The person had seemingly learned to be helpless in those kind of situations it's very tough for a family to do anything. Some mental illnesses are really f**king nasty diseases.

catallus

Jernal wrote: »

The person had seemingly learned to be helpless in those kind of situations it's very tough for a family to do anything. Some mental illnesses are really f**king nasty diseases.

Why are people saying it's a mental illness? Maybe he was just sanely sick of life. I don't mean to be insensitive to the guy or especially his family, but he made the choice to do what he did.

P.Walnuts

catallus wrote: »

Why are people saying it's a mental illness? Maybe he was just sanely sick of life. I don't mean to be insensitive to the guy or especially his family, but he made the choice to do what he did.

Eh Depression is a mental illness?

P_1

catallus wrote: »

Why are people saying it's a mental illness? Maybe he was just sanely sick of life. I don't mean to be insensitive to the guy or especially his family, but he made the choice to do what he did.

P.Walnuts wrote: »

Eh Depression is a mental illness?

It is a tough and sensitive one to figure out alright. I'm not sure if disengaging totally from society is necessarily a mental illness or a symptom of one, feck knows I've had ideas of doing it myself at times to be honest.

Renegade Mechanic

PizzamanIRL wrote: »

The Pringles slogan is scarily true here.

Why did the family not intervene if he was visibly malnourished?

Simple. In this age people will ask you "How youre going", while praying to God you dont actually tell them.
In fact many will completely avoid you if theres an increased risk of you doing so.

catallus

A psychiatrist said "there was no overt sign of psychosis or depression" when he was involuntarily admitted to hospital.

The coroner said there were "psychological reasons" for his self-neglect, but depression wasn't mentioned.

The only one in the report mentioning depression is the journalist.

Turtwig

catallus wrote: »

Why are people saying it's a mental illness? Maybe he was just sanely sick of life. I don't mean to be insensitive to the guy or especially his family, but he made the choice to do what he did.

It's an assumption. He behaved in a way you'd associate a person of having one. Quitting his job. Not accepting help from family or friends. Living off savings to the point of being broke. Avoiding people who are offering to help him if they call round to visit. Rubbish diet. No motivation to change anything. General over all self-neglect.

Put simply, it's highly unlikely a sane person who's sick of life would choose to let themselves wilt away in such a manner. It's possible, of course.

titan18

Jernal wrote: »

It's an assumption. He behaved in a way you'd associate a person of having one. Quitting his job. Not accepting help from family or friends. Living off savings to the point of being broke. Avoiding people who are offering to help him if they call round to visit. Rubbish diet. No motivation to change anything. General over all self-neglect.

Put simply, it's highly unlikely a sane person who's sick of life would choose to let themselves wilt away in such a manner. It's possible, of course.

Maybe he was sane though. What's the point of living, working etc when all you do is earn to pay taxes and bills? Actually going through with killing yourself is hard, wasting away is a much easier, albeit slower death.

catallus

Jernal wrote: »

It's an assumption. He behaved in a way you'd associate a person of having one. Quitting his job. Not accepting help from family or friends. Living off savings to the point of being broke. Avoiding people who are offering to help him if they call round to visit. Rubbish diet. No motivation to change anything. General over all self-neglect.

Put simply, it's highly unlikely a sane person who's sick of life would choose to let themselves wilt away in such a manner. It's possible, of course.

It is a very irrational assumption to make, wouldn't you agree?

I think we see sane people do it every day, if we don't wilfully blind ourselves to it. There are so many people languishing in horrific circumstances, maybe the easiest way to deal with it is to tell each other that it is incomprehensible that someone would allow themselves to die in such a nihilistic manner.

Femme_Fatale

SpaceTime wrote: »

I just think sometimes lads really need to ensure that they talk to each other too though.

Yeh I noticed on the other thread about dealing with really tough situations that so many people (mostly guys) are filled with dread at the idea of counselling and spilling all to a stranger.
To me, that is a frightening obstacle. I've been for counselling and found it absolutely brilliant - didn't have a bother letting it all out as I know these are professionals who are sensitive and do not judge and you are in a safe, confidential environment.
I couldn't imagine not being able to go for that kind of help...

GreeBo

SpaceTime wrote: »

I just think sometimes lads really need to ensure that they talk to each other too though. There's a lot to be said for being able to chat to your mates who are your peers.

I think part of the problem is, much like an alcoholic, people who are not willing or able to ask for help are quite good at living an outwardly normal life. They may be all craic in the office and then go home and cry on their own.

Jernal wrote: »

It's an assumption. He behaved in a way you'd associate a person of having one. Quitting his job. Not accepting help from family or friends. Living off savings to the point of being broke. Avoiding people who are offering to help him if they call round to visit. Rubbish diet. No motivation to change anything. General over all self-neglect.

Put simply, it's highly unlikely a sane person who's sick of life would choose to let themselves wilt away in such a manner. It's possible, of course.

Being depressed doesnt make you insane. Its insane to not realise that a life like this will kill you; its not insane to just not care.

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Yeh I noticed on the other thread about dealing with really tough situations that so many people (mostly guys) are filled with dread at the idea of counselling and spilling all to a stranger.
To me, that is a frightening obstacle. I've been for counselling and found it absolutely brilliant - didn't have a bother letting it all out as I know these are professionals who are sensitive and do not judge and you are in a safe, confidential environment.
I couldn't imagine not being able to go for that kind of help...

I think for a lot of guys it came with the penis tbh.

titan18

Poor self esteem, bullying in childhood and adolescence often plays a part in being a recluse (at least it does for me). People will go, just go out and do something, you have to make an attempt but years of being put down, saying you're not good enough and people not making an effort back, at some point you just get fed up and give up. I'd love if people would contact me, but other than my parents and brothers, I'd be surprised if people knew I still existed. It might not be what the guy went through, but I wouldn't be surprised. Most people just don't care enough to bother.

I understand the article saying he gave up but didn't want to commit suicide. I mean I've attempted, but killing yourself is such a hard thing to do and you really have to be at your lowest, whereas being passive and eating yourself dead is easier, if slower.

Being reclusive and depression probably go hand in hand in a lot of cases,although are they both distinct or is one caused by the other is arguable. For me, I've always been quiet, but then the long periods of no social contact probably plays into the depression (think it's about been 3 and a half months since I've talked to someone other than family or a doctor). It's probably not healthy, but when you're at the point where your razor blades are your comfort and the last time someone contacted you to hang out was 8 months ago, you're pretty much past making an effort with people. It'd be great to be one of the people who can make friends with everyone and have great self-confidence, but not everyone can be that.

Turtwig

GreeBo wrote: »

Being depressed doesnt make you insane. Its insane to not realise that a life like this will kill you; its not insane to just not care.

Just to clarify this. I used sane in the context the poster I was replying to used it - not of sound mind i.e poor mental health. Just a basic assumption of a being under a perception 'fog' associated with depression or something similar. Absolutely somebody with a mental illness isn't necessarily insane, especially if one thinks of insane as the colloquial Homer Simpson Shining meaning of the word.

PhlegmyMoses

Jernal wrote: »

It's an assumption. He behaved in a way you'd associate a person of having one. Quitting his job. Not accepting help from family or friends. Living off savings to the point of being broke. Avoiding people who are offering to help him if they call round to visit. Rubbish diet. No motivation to change anything. General over all self-neglect.

Put simply, it's highly unlikely a sane person who's sick of life would choose to let themselves wilt away in such a manner. It's possible, of course.

I'd say he was depressed but I'm not sure that he knew he was killing himself. He probably didn't realise what he was doing to his body.

catallus

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Yeh I noticed on the other thread about dealing with really tough situations that so many people (mostly guys) are filled with dread at the idea of counselling and spilling all to a stranger.
To me, that is a frightening obstacle. I've been for counselling and found it absolutely brilliant - didn't have a bother letting it all out as I know these are professionals who are sensitive and do not judge and you are in a safe, confidential environment.
I couldn't imagine not being able to go for that kind of help...

A lot of people couldn't imagine going for that kind of help; an obvious advantage of spilling to professionals is that they can talk you through your problems. But try and imagine not wanting to talk about it because you realise it's not advice on your situation you need, but just a change of situation.

At the end of the day talk is just that: talk. It solves nothing.

We massage the truth in the language of therapy, ignoring the horrible unchangeable truth of the one truly unforgivable sin, despair.

It's not an explanation I would expect to have much traction here, but if the question is: why would someone kill themselves if they were not depressed or otherwise mentally unwell; well, there are other things going on in the world other than one's brain chemistry; it might well be despair, a totally untouchable capitulation to the darkness.

Femme_Fatale

catallus wrote: »

At the end of the day talk is just that: talk. It solves nothing.

We massage the truth in the language of therapy, ignoring the horrible unchangeable truth of the one truly unforgivable sin, despair.

Talk actually does help people solve things. It might not always, but that doesn't mean it never does. It teaches people coping skills, to change their way of thinking to a more beneficial one. It's not simply dressed up in the language of therapy - it is valuable advice.

It's not an explanation I would expect to have much traction here, but if the question is: why would someone kill themselves if they were not depressed or otherwise mentally unwell; well, there are other things going on in the world other than one's brain chemistry; it might well be despair, a totally untouchable capitulation to the darkness.

I don't know that anyone would kill themselves without being depressed. I don't know for certain, but if someone wants to surrender to the darkness that engulfs them, that smacks of depression to me. I think you are saying people shouldn't always slap a label of mental illness on anything like this, and while it's fair enough to bring this to the table, some of us are not trying to simplify it or just stick on a label, we just firmly believe resorting to such drastic measures is the result of depression.

jackthetrader

People can be reclusive for a variety of reasons. Some people thrive on solitude. Others the need to have people around. People who are not reclusive suffer from depression too. Each to their own

catallus

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Talk actually does help people solve things. It might not always, but that doesn't mean it never does. It teaches people coping skills, to change their way of thinking to a more beneficial one. It's not simply dressed up in the language of therapy - it is valuable advice.

I don't know that anyone would kill themselves without being depressed. I don't know for certain, but if someone wants to surrender to the darkness that engulfs them, that smacks of depression to me. I think you are saying people shouldn't always slap a label of mental illness on anything like this, and while it's fair enough to bring this to the table, some of us are not trying to simplify it or just stick on a label, we just firmly believe resorting to such drastic measures is the result of depression.

Lots of sane people kill themselves every day.

Recent media coverage of Belgium gives stats if you want them. Over 1200 people opt for state-sanctioned death, for physical and psychical reasons.

I get that having a comfort-blanket of professionally sanctioned "depression" as being a hold-all that solves all the inescapable problems that can beset a person can be helpful to a lot of people. But it isn't the truth.

titan18

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Talk actually does help people solve things. It might not always, but that doesn't mean it never does. It teaches people coping skills, to change their way of thinking to a more beneficial one. It's not simply dressed up in the language of therapy - it is valuable advice.

I don't know that anyone would kill themselves without being depressed. I don't know for certain, but if someone wants to surrender to the darkness that engulfs them, that smacks of depression to me. I think you are saying people shouldn't always slap a label of mental illness on anything like this, and while it's fair enough to bring this to the table, some of us are not trying to simplify it or just stick on a label, we just firmly believe resorting to such drastic measures is the result of depression.

I asked my doctors particularly about that last February when this current bout started, and I wanted to believe it wasn't depression, that I just didn't belong in the world anymore, and had no reason to live. It can happen that people just want to die, feel no use in going on anymore and it's not related to a mental illness. Would probably be a minority, but can happen that's it's a rational logical decision that life just isn't worth it. Main example, and doesn't seem to be in this case, would be intense physical pain that couldn't be cured, only medicated.

Femme_Fatale

catallus wrote: »

Lots of sane people kill themselves every day.

Recent media coverage of Belgium gives stats if you want them. Over 1200 people opt for state-sanctioned death, for physical and psychical reasons.

Well voluntary euthanasia for physical illness is comparable but it's separate to suicide for psychological reasons. Would "psychical" not fit under the psychological/mental umbrella?

I get that having a comfort-blanket of professionally sanctioned "depression" as being a hold-all that solves all the inescapable problems that can beset a person can be helpful to a lot of people. But it isn't the truth.

I just find the "comfort blanket" assertion to be quite dismissive. It's not a comfort blanket, there's nothing comforting about the reality of devastating mental illness. Not everyone with a mental illness gets well - I'm under no delusions that they all do.

miss tickle

catallus wrote: »

A psychiatrist said "there was no overt sign of psychosis or depression" when he was involuntarily admitted to hospital.

The coroner said there were "psychological reasons" for his self-neglect, but depression wasn't mentioned.

The only one in the report mentioning depression is the journalist.

A person can self neglect for psychological reasons without being depressed. For example a person may be used to the same routine every day, (get up, wash, dress, go to work, have elevensie, work, have lunch, work, go home, have a snack, glass of wine, bed). If that routine is removed (even voluntary), it can completely change a persons lifestyle. For example, get up, no work, no need to wash, no elevensies, no bikkies and tea, no lunch (i can't cook), snack, wine, bed. So the routine becomes get up, snacks, wine, bed. The fact that he lived off his savings without seeking any sort of state support and also the fact that he could not be in his home when his family called around to 'clean' it would indicate that he felt very judged by those in his immediate enviornment. This is not necessarly a sign of depression but a feeling of lack of acceptance.

BabyGorilla

miss tickle wrote: »

A person can self neglect for psychological reasons without being depressed. For example a person may be used to the same routine every day, (get up, wash, dress, go to work, have elevensie, work, have lunch, work, go home, have a snack, glass of wine, bed). If that routine is removed (even voluntary), it can completely change a persons lifestyle. For example, get up, no work, no need to wash, no elevensies, no bikkies and tea, no lunch (i can't cook), snack, wine, bed. So the routine becomes get up, snacks, wine, bed. The fact that he lived off his savings without seeking any sort of state support and also the fact that he could not be in his home when his family called around to 'clean' it would indicate that he felt very judged by those in his immediate enviornment. This is not necessarly a sign of depression but a feeling of lack of acceptance.

Equally I'd say he wasn't interested in dealing with social welfare, paperwork, going to sign, go to post office etc.

Turtwig

Not sure I like where this thread is going.

Yes, some people may for some reason opt to end their lives. In some cases though many have these desires or wishes (even if only passive) to end their lives when such thoughts are not only arbitrary but their perception of suffering is treatable and, sometimes, completely preventable.

Therapy isn't just talk. It's a whole lot more and it's not for everyone one. Some folks may require medications or even surgery. But we need to be so careful about talking about the will and wishes to die. Not everyone who has them is thinking clearly. That may seem arrogant but such is the nature of these illnesses. They can be awfully debilitating and self deprecating. We don't know what happened in the OP. We can only speculate - and that speculation leads many of us here to think it was mental health issue. However, what can be said with certainty is that depression isn't a catch all term. I'm just going to leave this video here as it's brilliant and explains what exactly depression is. Catallus I strongly encourage you to set aside the time and watch it.

catallus

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Well voluntary euthanasia for physical illness is comparable but it's separate to suicide for psychological reasons. Would "psychical" not fit under the psychological/mental umbrella?

I just find the "comfort blanket" assertion to be quite dismissive. It's not a comfort blanket, there's nothing comforting about the reality of devastating mental illness. Not everyone with a mental illness gets well - I'm under no delusions that they all do.

The comfort blanket I'm talking about is about the preconception of a lot of people who see what happened to this poor man and say "Oh he must have been depressed". It's a blinker for people to explain away the incomprehensible action of another person. I'm not dismissing depression as it exists, just the use of the existence of depression as an explanation for all actions which result in self-harm or death. There are other reasons, such as sentient despair.

As for psychical reasons, well i guess it is synonymous with psychological.

KyussBishop

When you hear of stories like this, all of the focus is on what is wrong with the person - but what is wrong with society itself, that they can get trapped like that and have no way out? This is far more important.
Undoubtedly the guy had serious problems, but I don't think it's all him - even if that's where the focus tends to lie when stuff like this comes up.

Depending upon society, there isn't always a way out of certain problems, or a good way to work on them.

As catallus said, there is a willful blindness among most people, to looking at these issues more closely - far more easy/comfortable, to just assume something was incomprehensibly wrong with the person.

There are a hell of a lot more people out there, going through a similar tortuous situation, of varying kinds (a lot of people with issues like this end up homeless I would imagine).

miss tickle

BabyGorilla wrote: »

Equally I'd say he wasn't interested in dealing with social welfare, paperwork, going to sign, go to post office etc.

No, I think you miss my point, this is not about social welfare, yes I did mention it, along with a general lack of self care abilities, (cooking, cleaning), my point was that his ability to function seemed to stop when he resigned his job. If he have been in this job for a number of years, a lot of his needs were met. Social, nutritional, etc.. When he left (for whatever reason), he could not provide these needs for himself. I'm just wondering if pre-programmed social stigma prevented him reaching out and getting the help he needed.

titan18

miss tickle wrote: »

No, I think you miss my point, this is not about social welfare, yes I did mention it, along with a general lack of self care abilities, (cooking, cleaning), my point was that his ability to function seemed to stop when he resigned his job. If he have been in this job for a number of years, a lot of his needs were met. Social, nutritional, etc.. When he left (for whatever reason), he could not provide these needs for himself. I'm just wondering if pre-programmed social stigma prevented him reaching out and getting the help he needed.

Tbh, and it's based on my own experiences, but most of the people I see in psychiatry waiting rooms are men. Lots of elderly, not many young people (although I'd imagine they'd be in college counselling rather than going to CUH).

Stigma is there of course, but it's not as bad as people think

miss tickle

titan18 wrote: »

Tbh, and it's based on my own experiences, but most of the people I see in psychiatry waiting rooms are men. Lots of elderly, not many young people (although I'd imagine they'd be in college counselling rather than going to CUH).

Stigma is there of course, but it's not as bad as people think

Stigma is there, but it is not necessarily based on gender, I think it has more of a basis in attitude. This persons family were aware that his behaviour was unusual but never sought outside help. Why?

catallus

miss tickle wrote: »

Stigma is there, but it is not necessarily based on gender, I think it has more of a basis in attitude. This persons family were aware that his behaviour was unusual but never sought outside help. Why?

In fairness his family obviously did try to help, he was involuntarily admitted to a hospital, and his father did visit him in his reclusive state in his flat.

miss tickle

titan18 wrote: »

Tbh, and it's based on my own experiences, but most of the people I see in psychiatry waiting rooms are men. Lots of elderly, not many young people (although I'd imagine they'd be in college counselling rather than going to CUH).

Stigma is there of course, but it's not as bad as people think

Actually this I can understand, my father had regular appointments with a psychiatrist, but in my brothers case we went private due to long waiting lists.