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Astec - external bell

  • 10-10-2013 4:15pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,468 ✭✭✭


    Hi,

    My astec external bell strobes are gone so i want to replace the external bell on it.

    Searching here it looks like I need an S21 SAB conversion kit - can they still be got?

    Like the look of the Pyronix Deltabell Plus External Sounder Back Plate Red online.


«1

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,888 ✭✭✭✭altor


    jamesd wrote: »
    Hi,

    My astec external bell strobes are gone so i want to replace the external bell on it.

    Searching here it looks like I need an S21 SAB conversion kit - can they still be got?

    Like the look of the Pyronix Deltabell Plus External Sounder Back Plate Red online.

    You would need a S22 to do this. You would be lucky to get your hands on one as the S22 is an obsolete product at this stage. Possibly try some of the suppliers here.

    An alternative option if the bell is working might be just to replace the LEDs in the bell itself.


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    There are still some floating around, I'm sure I've still a few floating around.
    I'll check tomorrow & let you know.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,468 ✭✭✭jamesd


    Thanks koolkid


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    Yep have some there.
    They are not packed, but we can check and make sure they are good.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,468 ✭✭✭jamesd


    KoolKid wrote: »
    Yep have some there.
    They are not packed, but we can check and make sure they are good.

    Excellent I am down in ATHLONE though - could I paypal you payment for it and you post it or is that too much bother?


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  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    Yeah I could do that... I'll send it to you first and make sure it works OK.
    PM me a contact and we can discuss.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,468 ✭✭✭jamesd


    KoolKid wrote: »
    Yeah I could do that... I'll send it to you first and make sure it works OK.
    PM me a contact and we can discuss.

    Thanks PM sent. No rush on call.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,468 ✭✭✭jamesd


    So with my s22 coming thanks to KoolKid I need to get the external bell ordered

    If I got
    http://www.cctvcentral.co.uk/pyronix-deltabell-fully-led-backlit-sounder---backplate-red-1064-p.asp
    And
    http://www.cctvcentral.co.uk/pyronix-deltabell---cover-white-1065-p.asp

    Is that all I need?

    Would there be room for the s22 in the pyronix? I think I read here that it should fit.

    Would I get this bell box off someone like eastern electrical for about the same price?


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    Yes that's all that you need.
    If you are short on cables to the bell this does fit into the Pyronix Delta Bell. If the cables are free I prefer to use it inside the house.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,468 ✭✭✭jamesd


    That's perfect - the bellbox is on the outside of the attic side wall so I can leave the s22 in a small ip65 box inside of the attic wall screwed to the wall and them run the cables from it to the new bellbox.


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  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    That's an option, or if you have 6 core going to the panel you can locate the unit there.
    Remember you do not need a resistor on the tamper return as the tamper is monitored by the bell bus anyway.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,888 ✭✭✭✭altor


    You do not need a resistor when using the S22 with the external bell.
    Here is an old PDF I made up for the connections.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,468 ✭✭✭jamesd


    Received my 2 * Pyronix Deltabell Plus External Sounder Back Plate Red today.


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    You're ready to go so.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,888 ✭✭✭✭altor


    jamesd wrote: »
    Received my 2 * Pyronix Deltabell Plus External Sounder Back Plate Red today.

    Good to hear, did you get two S22s?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,468 ✭✭✭jamesd


    Yes 2 s22's from Koolkid , going to do them Sunday morning early. Looking forward to the new bell box.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,468 ✭✭✭jamesd


    Are the 2 wires from the panel to the s22 a plus and a minus or does it matter which as looking at the picture posted it dosent look like it matters.

    I'm going to put the s22 inside in the attic and just run a 6core out to the new bell box. Doing it this way so I even need to open the panel?
    I was hoping to just pop the old bell box off the wall, silent the alarm with my code, push the existing wire back into the attic and wire that into the s22 and then use a 6 core to the new bell box.
    Have I to do anything on the panel or keypad?


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    The panel connections are polarity independent, it doesn't matter which way they are wired.
    For the delta bell there is a permanent - and the top tamper is - . You can loop both of these to BHO on the S22.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,888 ✭✭✭✭altor


    jamesd wrote: »
    Are the 2 wires from the panel to the s22 a plus and a minus or does it matter which as looking at the picture posted it dosent look like it matters.

    I'm going to put the s22 inside in the attic and just run a 6core out to the new bell box. Doing it this way so I even need to open the panel?
    I was hoping to just pop the old bell box off the wall, silent the alarm with my code, push the existing wire back into the attic and wire that into the s22 and then use a 6 core to the new bell box.
    Have I to do anything on the panel or keypad?

    Yes, go into option 73 to get them on the system. There is also a link on each S22. ID1 and ID2. This will correspond with each bell.


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    AFAIK He is putting only putting one bell on each system so none of that programming is required.
    The panel will automatically see the S22 in place of the existing external bell.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,468 ✭✭✭jamesd


    Yes just 1 bell on each panel, the 2nd bell is for my fathers house as his astec bell LEDs have failed too.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,888 ✭✭✭✭altor


    altor wrote: »
    Yes, go into option 73 to get them on the system. There is also a link on each S22. ID1 and ID2. This will correspond with each bell.
    jamesd wrote: »
    Yes just 1 bell on each panel, the 2nd bell is for my fathers house as his astec bell LEDs have failed too.

    I assumed you where installing both on the one house as there was no mention of your fathers house in the thread.

    Thanks for clearing that up.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,468 ✭✭✭jamesd


    Hi,
    Gave this a go this evening.

    Removed the Astec bell box and pulled the wire back into the attic. (It had 6 wires going to it but only the black and red were used for the astec bell)

    Wired the black and red into the S22 - got 1 tamper and 1 sab error on the keypad.

    Wired the s22 to the new bell box with it's lid opened so tamper open. (Says in manual this is normal as called external engineer hold off when panel first powered)

    It lit up and the red led's on it flashed on/off. (Nothing on panel)

    But then i pushed in the tamper switch to make it think its lid was on it then it started ringing but nothing on the keypad came up. (Tried disarming from keypad but nothing)

    To stop it I removed the black going into the S22 sounder bus.

    What am I doing wrong? There is a jumper on the new bell between T and Fault - I left this here as assumed it was needed.

    See pics of both.


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    Why the link between Tamper return & fault?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,468 ✭✭✭jamesd


    Dont know - It was there when it came. The instruction sheet dosent even say why.

    Should I remove it?

    Also to stop the astec bell ringing after I removed it from the wall - I saw a battery switch on it which I pulled out but it did nothing.


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    Never seen them in any delta bell I've used , take it out and see.
    The battery link should be switched over to Int.
    If everything is wired in the sounder should stop when you close the lid.
    Check all that & tell me what (if any error )displays on the Astec panel.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,468 ✭✭✭jamesd


    Thanks.
    I never swapped the battery over to internal, I will pop out that link in the morning and see how I get on when I close the lid.

    Hopefully removing the link will do it or putting the battery onto internal.

    I had pressed the tamper bottom down to make it think the lid was closed but when I did that it started ringing.


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    When you press and release the tamper initially it powers up the bell.
    If everything is OK the bell should silence when the tamper is closed again.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,468 ✭✭✭jamesd


    Ah that could be my problem too, When I powered it up the tamper was opened (external engineer hold off when panel first powered)

    It wasent ringing just flashing so I said to make it seem like the lid was on it I would just press down and hold the tamper, so i pressed and held it down without releasing it and it then started ringing.

    So tomorrow morning I will
    1) Remove like between fault and Tamper
    2) Swap over battery link to INT

    Press and then release tamper and alarm should sound so then I need to put on cover to close tamper.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,468 ✭✭✭jamesd


    Now doing this step by step this morning:
    1) Removed Astec bell again and get "22 Call Engineer" on keypad (sounder disconnected error)

    Next wire up S22 on its own to panel : "15 Call Engineer" on keypad (Tamper in system. Panel or sounder lid is open or, a smoke detector is disconnected from a smoke module. Display cleared by removing fault)
    If I press View 1 on kypad I get "1 Tamper SAB"

    Does this mean all is ok with the s22 ?

    Next I remove the link on the new bell between fault and the 2nd Tamper

    Then wire up the bell to the s22


    Tried the above 3 times now and still the same - new bell box rings when I close the tamper with the lid. (It does not ring until I close the tamper)
    Then move battery to INT

    New bell box LED's come on

    Close lid on bed box and it starts to ring (new bell box only not internal house bell)

    Nothing on keypad

    Try by open/close lid and alarm stays ringing (new bell box only not internal house bell)

    To stop it - I remove battery from IN to EXT and then power down S22


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    Could still be the S22.
    Have you tried the other one.
    It's like the bell out put from the S22 is permanently negative.
    With the bell wired up and ringing disconnect the bell negative from the card.
    Does the bell stop?
    After that If you wire the strobe negative into bell and strobe does it power up clear?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,468 ✭✭✭jamesd


    Tried the other s22 and the same - Bell starting ringing when i closed the tamper.

    "With the bell wired up and ringing disconnect the bell negative from the card.
    Does the bell stop? "
    Is that number 3 on the s22 that is link to - 12V on the bell ? Tried that and it kept ringing.

    "After that If you wire the strobe negative into bell and strobe does it power up clear"
    Is that 5 on the s22 into the STB on the bell and then just a link from STB into bell?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,468 ✭✭✭jamesd


    On the bell box I removed the wire from the connector called bell and then ran a link to it from the strobe connector.
    Then powered up s22 and moved battery to INT.
    Bell powered up and and then when i pressed down tamper and released the bell started ringing , closed lid but it kept ringing and nothing on keypad.


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    Is the bell closing fully?
    If you press and hold in the tamper switch does the bell stop?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,468 ✭✭✭jamesd


    KoolKid wrote: »
    Is the bell closing fully?
    If you press and hold in the tamper switch does the bell stop?

    Yes it closes fully but I tried it then by just pressing and holding in the tamper switch and still the same.


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  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    Need to find where the trigger is coming from.
    Disconnect both the strobe negative and the bell negative and see if it closes and silences all clear.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,468 ✭✭✭jamesd


    Is the strobe negative and the bell negative the strobe and bell connections on the bell box? So I just unscrew the wire from both of them there ?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,468 ✭✭✭jamesd


    Removed the wires from the bell box connections for bell and strobe and then connected battery INT and powered up the s22.
    Bell box lit up as normal but when I press the tamper down the bell started ringing and would not stop when released and pressed and kept down again.


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    Strange,
    Check the other links against the manual.
    Especially the negative applied/negative removed setting.
    It sounds like one of these may be wrong.

    After that remove everything except the + & - it should power up and light without sounding if the tamper is closed.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,468 ✭✭✭jamesd


    Here is the manual sheet - 1 page.
    There is also an addendum sheet which is 2 pages.

    On the connection it says the Bell and Strobe triggers are negative applied if that means anything?


    Attachments are scanned at high quality in case you want to print them off.


    Looking on the manual Step 7 Connections
    Should I be putting the T into the top one on the bell and not the 2nd T ? Could this be the problem?

    You can see the link that came in it for between the 2nd T on the top Fault


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  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    This bell is Grade 3 and appears to be a little different.
    Try the negative into the bottom tamper and wire the top one to tamper return.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,468 ✭✭✭jamesd


    Perfect I'll try that after dinner.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,468 ✭✭✭jamesd


    I emailed support and got this reply.

    You have the Grade 3 Version of the sounder which has a fault output for monitoring the internal battery.

    The fault relay is only required on a grade 3 system. If you remove the wire link you can ignore the fault terminals and wire as normal.

    However the Bell Trigger wire is monitored on a grade 3 sounder and has to be a specific voltage for it to work correctly (Approx 3 Volts). If the trigger is not 3 volts then the sounder will not work properly.

    My advice would be to return the sounder and exchange it for the grade 2 version which wires as you have shown in your diagram.


    Alternatively you could try fitting a resistor to the trigger wire in order to pull it up or down to the required voltage.

    The resistor would be connected between –ve and the bell trigger to pull the voltage down or +ve and the bell trigger to pull it up.

    In order to determine which resistor value is required you should first meter the voltage of the bell trigger by using a multimeter with the –ve lead on the –ve terminal and the +ve lead on the trigger terminal.

    If the voltage you read is above 3 volts insert a resistor between –ve and the bell trigger to reduce the voltage until 3 volts is achieved. This procedure can be trial and error but you should be able to get the sounder to work.

    If in any doubt then we would advise that you contact us from site for further advice.


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    Yeah,
    I was presuming you just had a standard Delta Bell Plus.
    That bell could be messy with the Astec interface.
    I'd recommend replacing with Grade 2 Delta Bell Plus.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,468 ✭✭✭jamesd


    KoolKid wrote: »
    Yeah,
    I was presuming you just had a standard Delta Bell Plus.
    That bell could be messy with the Astec interface.
    I'd recommend replacing with Grade 2 Delta Bell Plus.

    Thanks KoolKid for your help on this, I have mailed the company in the uk to arrange a return of the 2 bell boxes.

    Is this the correct one I need then ? Pyronix Deltabell E Grade 2 External Sounder Back Plate Red:
    http://www.securitywarehouse.co.uk/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=2866

    Thanks James


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    Yeah,
    The delta bell E or the delta bell plus...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,468 ✭✭✭jamesd


    2 new Deltabell plus grade 2's arriving to me next Wednesday.


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    Hopefully all will go ok then,From what you've done so far it appears the S22s are ok.
    Here's hoping.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,468 ✭✭✭jamesd


    All working perfectly, Tested both s22's there and they are working with the new bell boxes.

    Thanks very much KoolKid for sending me on the 2 s22's and for you help on this.

    Also thanks to Altor for the wiring diagram as it made it very handy.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,468 ✭✭✭jamesd


    Should I get a sticker made up with a clear background for the cover?


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