Pets.

ScumLord

eisenberg1 wrote: »

and the there are certain breeds you must be very careful about, King Charles, GSD's, Bulldogs to name a few, and by the same token, certain "flaws" would not stop me buying a dog (eg a Ridgeback without the "ridge", a Dalmatian with enough spots or whatever.

I've heard that ridgebacks without the ridge are put down by most puppy farms, even the good ones. The other funny thing is that the ridge is a sign that the dog has a problem, I can't remember what the problem is but it's serious and life threatening. The King Charles skull is so small that it crushes the brain and causes what is supposed to be the most agonising pain imaginable from description given by humans with the same condition. Why would people take that risk with an animal health?

Buyers are careful not to end up with one of the sick ones but that doesn't mean many sick dogs aren't produced to get the handful of healthy ones. Being careful doesn't help the dog species it just saves the buyer money in the long run.

OldNotWIse

^ I was at a dog show with a friend and carrying around my little kn*cker dog (a jrt ) and this weird creepy aul wan came over and asked if she had any babies and started bleating on about her Queen Anne legs...I backed slowly away from her! In fact, she doesn't have "Queen Anne legs" which are the result of an inheritable disease called chondrodysplasia, and definitely not something an owner would want for their dog unless they were a complete fruitcake. The fact that its a recessive gene means it likely has to be intentionally bred into a dog, as both parents must carry. I mumbled something about her being spayed and left.

Edit: often, dalmations will be destoyed if their spots are not right. The sad thing is, it takes a while for the spots to even develop so they keep them going and then kill them when they dont turn out as desired.

Wibbs

ScumLord wrote: »

It's a good point, on paper it would seem unlikely that we'd survive and go on to dominate the planet.

Yea we look like the ones that won't last. No doubt the locals thought the same.

That PBS documentary I keep going on about showed an American women trying to raise wolves as dogs to see if it's nurture that domesticates them. She found the same, a bit of a handful as pubs but once they turn into adults they want to be the Alpha even if that means going through the person that raised them.

Yea. I've had the chance to play with pups back in the day and they're very like dogs, a bit more forceful, rough in play. Adults are another ballgame. More like a cat in nature. Aloof. Not nearly so focused on people the way a dog tends to be. They initially want to jump on you and lick you to death out of curiousity(and testing you and can spot the sucker who'll feed them treats a mile off). After that they get bored quickly. Like I say very "cat like" in many ways(in the sense of how we think cats are in general). I suspect in the early days with us, they acted like cats too. In other words they'd do their own thing a lot of the time and come back to the human "family" at night or whatever. Which is fine if you're living as a migrating hunter gatherer like we did. Suburbia would not be so fine.

It's not even the alpha thing either. That's more an issue in captive wolves. In the wild they're basically an extended family and their roles are known. In captivity they're much more likely to kick off trying to work out their roles. Another issue is that their natural inclination once they grow up is to make off on their own to start their own family. Just like us. It would be akin to keeping an adult human in short pants and school for life.

Now they are somewhat trainable, depending on the individual, though are never reliable. The heel work bit in this video is amazing. They clearly know their shít

More submissive ones that respond to people more(which we elected for back in the day) are more tractable. Females tend to be more tractable, while males get more uppity. Both genders are far more driven by hormones than dogs are. EG in an adult male wolf his nuts shrink down to walnut size when not in the breeding season, come the breeding season they swell up and lots of testosterone kicks in. Similar hormonal changes happen in females, so seasonal aggression can be very high. So a wolf that's happy out in summer, might try to rip you a new one come the winter. Neutering would ease a lot of that, but you'd still be left with the wanderlust and the basic personality of the individual. Unlike dogs they're very intense. So an aggressive one is going to be full on, no quarter. A very submissive one will pee and even poo itself if you approach or make an odd sound. Anything new is to be feared and avoided(or attacked) and that gets set early. If you raised a wolf pup from birth, it would know Scumlord as family. If they didn't see you for years they'd remember Daddy Scumlord and be ok with you, but no matter how long someone was around one a year old there'd be suspicion and fear.

I've wondered that, am I a wild human animal living as a wild human should or am I domesticated by society even though society is a natural part of human existence. Is the process of learning manners as a child a form of domestication?

I'd say so. I'd say the fact we extended that childhood for much longer than other previous humans is more of it. Even adult humans play. Play is a way of interacting and exploring the world and an animal that does that throughout life is at a serious advantage. So the next time a lady friend says "men never grow up" respond with "thanks, you're welcome. It's lucky we don't or we'd still be in caves". Then runin a zigzag so she can't get a bead on you.

The fact remains though that the dogs gene pool is under attack from pedigree breeding, it causes untold suffering in many dogs and I think it's wrong. But I accept most people haven't really considered the problems of pedigree dogs, it was a shocking realisation to me and I only came to that realisation in the last few years, so I spent most of my life in ignorance.

+1000. Pedigree breeders and the market that supports them has a helluva lot to answer for. Look what they did to the German Shepherd. They went from a magnificent dog, incredibly trainable and useful to a bent backed monster with dodgy temperament. Even when I was growing up you'd see German Shepherds as guide dogs and the like. Not any more. They're too fcuked for the most part.

DamagedTrax

I've heard that ridgebacks without the ridge are put down by most puppy farms, even the good ones. The other funny thing is that the ridge is a sign that the dog has a problem, I can't remember what the problem is but it's serious and life threatening. The King Charles skull is so small that it crushes the brain and causes what is supposed to be the most agonising pain imaginable from description given by humans with the same condition. Why would people take that risk with an animal health?

The ridgeback is another example of what i was talking about earlier, a working breed ruined by the show ring. our last dog before our staffie was a ridgeback without a ridge. we got him from a farmer who has always used them for working the farm. we never had any major vet bills and he lived to the ripe old age of 15 (decent age for a bid dog).

our staffie is a working type and stands about 3" taller than your show type staffs. she's also a lot slimmer with a narrower head. she wouldnt get a look in at the 'show' rings but yet she's just gained her championship title in working category.

this is our bitch

this is a typical show type champion http://www.frelonius.co.za/album/Ch%20Riefra%20Auspicious%20Lady%20of%20Frelonius/slides/PIC00035-1.jpg

the differences are ridiculous. although i have to say ive noticed the show crowd leaning towards a leaner staffordshire in the last year or two. at least thats a start.

Buyers are careful not to end up with one of the sick ones but that doesn't mean many sick dogs aren't produced to get the handful of healthy ones.

and again it comes down to the morals of the breeder. no responsible breeder will let a sick dog out. but buyers need to educate themselves. being careful is not enough and you're right, it does cause problems for the breed in the long run.

ScumLord

DamagedTrax wrote: »

and again it comes down to the morals of the breeder. no responsible breeder will let a sick dog out.

What happens to that sick dog then?

kowloon

ScumLord wrote: »

We're actually thinking about getting a cat at work. The factory is in the middle of a field and at this time of year we get overrun with mice. I'm not sure if it would work though, Im guessing just having the smell of a cat around the place would discourage many mice from entering.

I'm dead set against poison, it's too indiscriminate and I've had ducklings peck around rat vomit. What does produce results is an electric 'rat zapper'. You can stick it anywhere, including places a cat can't or shouldn't go.
All that said, if your factory is cat or dog friendly and nobody is against it there are bigger benefits to having a company cat or dog. It'll keep everyone more relaxed, even if they don't realise it and people will start bringing in treats or sharing their lunch. Just one more reason to like a job.

Wibbs wrote: »

+1 Ever see a terrier go through a barn after rats. Bloody hell. The best ratters on the planet. They make the most murderous moggie look lazy.

Had a sheepdog who was excellent at ratting, many a torn up rat was discarded about the place, but the terrier does seem to be the weapon of choice. I've heard of a pigeon guy who built ramps around the place to let his terrier get into every corner.


Yeah, I don't really have much to add here, just enjoying the thread.

DamagedTrax

ScumLord wrote: »

What happens to that sick dog then?

the pup should be PTS, but im not naive enough to think it always does.


i can say that i know of staffie and american pit bull pups being PTS for showing human aggression (which i agree with wholeheartedly).

while i dont agree with the OP that people shouldnt keep pets, i do think that we have enough badly bred animals already, breeding should only be for the betterment of the breed/species, anything less is reckless at the very least. Thats not to say cross breeding is bad, a species needs it to survive and evolve but just right now, i think we need to focus more on the problem at hand.

if you dont want the responsibility of breeding only the best examples, then either adopt from a rescue or neuter your dog. the kennel clubs allowing neutered dogs to compete, would go a long way to helping the case with one species at least.

OnandUpwards

Pets especially dogs and cats bring joy to the home. They have also proven to help people deal with stress.

Graces7

OnandUpwards wrote: »

Pets especially dogs and cats bring joy to the home. They have also proven to help people deal with stress.

No-one who has a cat or a dog is as lonely ever. They have needs, and fulfilling those needs is a blessing and a healing.

Hector Savage

Gee Bag wrote: »

You want to make the needy eat pedigree chum?

Well done sir!