Struggling to get payment from client

fergalr

jetsonx wrote: »

I've seen so many "nice" Irish business owners let debts slowly linger until they come to a stage where they can't pay their own debts and after a while it creeps up on them and they eventually have to close their business. Not nice to watch.

Sure - its frustrating. I've been there in a previous startup, trying to recover (a small sum of) money from a client who wouldn't pay, for no good reason.

jetsonx wrote: »

So what do you suggest.

Let this case linger on until it becomes a distance memory for the client?

Like you said earlier:

jetsonx wrote: »

What you need to do know is go to his office in person and firmly demand payment from him. Then he knows you are serious. Simple as that.
Don't be shy about this. Business is business and jokers like this put people like yourself out of business everyday.

If you're not prepared to do that; you might not be suited to working for yourself - because unfortunately there are a lot more of his ilk out there.

Even turning up in person doesn't always work, unfortunately, but that's one option to pursue.


What I'm saying is that you have to be exceedingly careful about making changes to the website or computer system, unless you are 100% sure you are legally within your rights to do so.

Which is incredibly hard to be sure of, because courts sometimes interpret these things in ways that make no sense to IT professionals.

Even actions like this (and this is speaking generally, not advice in any specific situation)

ChRoMe wrote: »

I've stood outside an office with a sign that read "XXXXX does not pay their bills"

might cause you some sort of problems with defamation law, but at least you won't fall foul of draconian computer misuse law.



Anyway, we've had this discussion on boards before.

The right answer is to A) Only deal with people you trust or make sure your contract that you sign with people clearly documents what will happen if you aren't paid, and talks about retention of ownership of work, and maybe describes some form of copy protection that will disable the software from running if you aren't paid, in a clear upfront and legally allowable way, which your solicitor signs off on, which you then implement. Basically, if you want to be able to enforce penalties if you aren't paid, get them into the legal framework of your contract. If you didn't do that, then learn for the next time.


Finally, its not my job to come up with a good solution, just because I correctly say that someone else's proposed course of action could have serious downsides, which should be built into any analysis.


Cost/benefit.

MyPeopleDrankTheSoup

I assume you're not self-employed in the client game fergal if you're scared of being sued for defamation by someone when they owe YOU money!

The client game is a tough racket, especially with the cowboys in this country. I've had similiar problems before OP and I filed a small claims court dispute and was paid the day the legal letter came in his front door.

I've no advice to give you for the future OP, I'm just glad that I make my money purely through paid apps now. There's no chasing Google and Apple every month for money!

fergalr

georgiecasey wrote: »

I assume you're not self-employed in the client game fergal if you're scared of being sued for defamation by someone when they owe YOU money!

I never said I'm scared of being sued for defamation by someone who owes me money.

The context of this thread is that yer man has a client who:

pushpop wrote: »

is well known in the profession he is in and is solvent and earning a couple of million a year

People who are "well known" and "earning a couple of million a year", but are employing contractors to do their websites, might have public personas.

So it'd be stupid to go and stand outside their offices with a sign, without at least thinking about whether there's a defamation angle to consider.

But, the point I actually made was that its probably not as stupid as sabotaging the website and potentially getting caught up in a computer crime shítstorm, because at least the legal system understands guys with signs, and won't surprise you with an 'unauthorised access of computers' criminal charge.

georgiecasey wrote: »

The client game is a tough racket, especially with the cowboys in this country. I've had similiar problems before OP and I filed a small claims court dispute and was paid the day the legal letter came in his front door.

It is shocking that there are cowboys around, and it is sometimes hard to get paid if you deal with them.

Doesn't mean the OP shouldn't consider these angles, and tread carefully.

georgiecasey wrote: »

I've no advice to give you for the future OP, I'm just glad that I make my money purely through paid apps now. There's no chasing Google and Apple every month for money!

Good for you; I reckon the App store is like New York - if you can make it there you can make it anywhere - so fair play to you.

ChRoMe

fergalr wrote: »

Even actions like this (and this is speaking generally, not advice in any specific situation)

might cause you some sort of problems with defamation law, but at least you won't fall foul of draconian computer misuse law.

Defamation law doesn't mean you can't say things about people that they don't like. The two rules of thumb are it must be published and it must be false.

Both examples I provided are completely legal.

oscarBravo

ChRoMe wrote: »

Defamation law doesn't mean you can't say things about people that they don't like. The two rules of thumb are it must be published and it must be false.

Both examples I provided are completely legal.

The problem with defamation law is that truth is a defence, not a preventative. In other words, even if what you say is true, that won't stop you being sued for defamation; it might help you not to lose the case.

The problem is, if you're in court, you've already lost.

srsly78

Chrome you might be right in the UK, but I think Ireland has really stupid laws for this stuff.

fergalr

In addition to what OscarBravo says, I'm pretty sure the burden of proof is on the defendant here. (I think they changed the law in the UK recently, not sure how it stands there.)

So, you'd need decent documentation to prove that you haven't been paid.


Anyway, I'm not saying do or don't wave a sign around. I'm just saying its preferable to getting into a computer crimes mess.
(I only mentioned there might be a defamation angle to consider in passing.)

The Corinthian

musicfan1ie wrote: »

If he doesnt pay, you may be able to petition the court for a liquidation order as a creditor. It represents proof as to inability of payment, so he may be insolvent. I reckon if you speak to your solicitor and then, threaten that you may need to take this step, he'll pay

Not so simple; to do that one needs to be legally recognised as a creditor and there's more to that than sending someone an invoice. My guess is that the OP doesn't have the necessary paper-trail to prove this without court proceedings.

This is a long term client that I presume the OP has made a good bit of money from over the years, so my first instinct is to see if it can be resolved amicably - if it can, this keeps the door open for future work. It is entirely possible that they're in financial trouble at present, like many businesses, and would have otherwise paid by now.

The OP should try to go for coffee or lunch with the client and raise this topic and if they admit this, then suggest an alternative payment schedule, citing your past history and that, ultimately, both of you would lose out if the relationship were to sour.

Failing that, I agree with the suggestion that the 'harassment' approach is often the most effective - at he end of the day, that's the approach that debt collectors use. Turn up on a daily, or random basis, both at their place of work, and where this isn't enough, their home address.

looksee

Apparently Ireland is one of the worst countries for 'leaning on the trade' I think is the expression, something like that, in other words not paying till the last possible minute. My experience was that it was the bigger companies who were the worst for not paying. Mostly I managed it, you need a brass neck, but go and stand in reception and ask to see the accountant/client/ whoever. Regardless of whether they are 'off for a week' or just 'out', stay there. Be ever so slightly in the way of other customers, very pleasantly. Make the point to the receptionist numerous times how you need to be paid and its over 90 days etc, preferably when there are other people in reception. Be very polite, but a complete nuisance.

My best effort was in a restaurant, when I caught the owner in the middle of the restaurant and asked, politely and without raising my voice (well not very much :-)) to be paid as the account was well overdue (over 90 days and three invoices sent). She was absolutely horrified and told me I should not be discussing this in the restaurant, so I pointed out that if she paid her bills I would not have to. She paid me out of the till.

jetsonx

looksee wrote: »

Be very polite, but a complete nuisance.

You know what with all the waffle on this thread you have summed up how to deal with situation with beautiful brevity.

When you're polite people can never accuse you of anything. If you get angry or raise your voice -it gives them another possible excuse for not paying.

After a while of being a complete ( but polite)nuisance, you will really start to get under their skin! You begin to grind them down.

No shouting, no ranting, yes there will possibly still be need for confrontation but it will be an nice type of confrontation (but it will really annoy the toad who is trying to avoid payment). This technique nearly always works.

ChRoMe

jetsonx wrote: »

You know what with all the waffle on this thread you have summed up how to deal with situation with beautiful brevity.

When you're polite people can never accuse you of anything. If you get angry or raise your voice -it gives them another possible excuse for not paying.

After a while of being a complete ( but polite)nuisance, you will really start to get under their skin! You begin to grind them down.

No shouting, no ranting, yes there will possibly still be need for confrontation but it will be an nice type of confrontation (but it will really annoy the toad who is trying to avoid payment). This technique nearly always works.

I don't think anyone here has advocated getting angry,shouting etc?

The Corinthian

ChRoMe wrote: »

I don't think anyone here has advocated getting angry,shouting etc?

Doesn't hurt to underline the importance of staying calm; when physically in front of a likely deadbeat client, the temptation to let loose of all that pent up frustration can be pretty powerful...