Struggling to get payment from client

pushpop

Hi there

I've been doing some general website and web development work for a client for a couple of years now. Lately, I've been having a problem getting payment off him for work I did in July and August. For the past two months I've been asking and asking to meet with him or send me payment via post, with no success, and was wondering if anyone here has had the same problem before?

I've tried to arrange meetings with him since August but he has kept putting it off until "next week" for weeks. He was abroad for most of August apparently, but he still could've gotten someone else to post a cheque.

Last week I gave up and I asked him to post out payment but still got no acknowledgement. I sent him mails and texts him again asking to arrange a meeting after that, and finally he replied, saying he was on holiday AGAIN and will be back next week, but it's just more of the same as far as I'm concerned.

At this stage I just want him to write me a cheque and cut my losses. The most annoying aspect of it is how if he needs to get you, he'll hound you until he does. I'd love to know how other people on this forum who've had this problem, dealt with it in the end.

corkoian

Im not a web developer i just happened to stumble across this so forgive my innocence but would you still have access to the website? Like could you give him a ultimatum to pay within a week in full or the website will be taken down?

jetsonx

You know I know loads of people who slowly but surely went out of business because of clients like this. It was painful to watch.

There comes a stage where texts, emails and letters become totally ineffectual. He is laughing at you each time you sent him a text.

What you need to do know is go to his office in person and firmly demand payment from him. Then he knows you are serious. Simple as that.
Don't be shy about this. Business is business and jokers like this put people like yourself out of business everyday.

If you're not prepared to do that; you might not be suited to working for yourself - because unfortunately there are a lot more of his ilk out there.

KonFusion

Talk to your solicitor.

oscarBravo

KonFusion wrote: »

Talk to your solicitor.

I was going to say this. If you want to be nice, tell your client that if you haven't received payment by Wednesday, you'll be handing the issue off to your solicitor.

musicfan1ie

If he doesnt pay, you may be able to petition the court for a liquidation order as a creditor. It represents proof as to inability of payment, so he may be insolvent. I reckon if you speak to your solicitor and then, threaten that you may need to take this step, he'll pay

http://www.cro.ie/en/business-termination-court.aspx

pushpop

Hi everyone,

Thanks for your responses. I just sent him a text asking him to leave payment at the reception of the building his office is in and I'll collect it tomorrow. Luckily, this isn't my full time job or else I would have been breathing down his neck, but I'll see where this takes me.

srsly78

UK has a great website for chasing people: www.moneyclaim.gov.uk For example it costs about £100 to file a £8000 again a company.

Ireland has nothing like this, so you have to make a claim via paper through the courts.

howamidifferent

Can you not supply his site with a "critical security patch" that will take the site offline until payment is received?

uck51js9zml2yt

If you've access to his site, send him a suspension notice and then cut it off.
Either than or remove the work you did from it. He's not paid you for it so its still yours.

KonFusion

Talk to your solicitor before taking the site down, putting a notice on the site etc.

In fact, I'd advise you talk to your solicitor before you take any action whatsoever.

uck51js9zml2yt

Depends on whether h had a contract and terms and conditions.

If its not paid for its not theres.

henryporter

First thing I would do is call to his premises unannounced - that normally shocks/shames them enough into paying up. At this stage as well I would be adding additional 'administration' fees and interest to the original invoice so they will see that the longer this goes on the more it will end up costing them - if you were depending on the money to put food on the table you would have to have an overdraft or loan to cover people not paying on time, so it's fair enough to add the costs of having to support late payments.
If you have to resort to the legal route make sure you have a good record of when you invoiced and attempted to seek payment before going to your solicitor as you need to demonstrate that the other party was not honouring their end of the contract between you (not necessarily a written one but that would help). Also advise both your solicitor and the customer that any legal fees associated with recovering the payment will also be sought (no point going through all this and ending up giving most of it to your solicitor).
Depending on the fees involved you might save yourself the bother of a solicitor by going to the small claims court: http://www.courts.ie/courts.ie/library3.nsf/pagecurrentweblookuptopnav/small%20claims%20procedure
Oh and if you do get paid, don;t do any more work for them - good for reducing the stress involved.
Best of luck getting sorted.

Cork24

Take down the Site and put up a note on the front page.

Web Site is down due to lack of payment to Web Developer..

Shame the C**nt

ChRoMe

henryporter wrote: »

First thing I would do is call to his premises unannounced - that normally shocks/shames them enough into paying up. At this stage as well I would be adding additional 'administration' fees and interest to the original invoice so they will see that the longer this goes on the more it will end up costing them - if you were depending on the money to put food on the table you would have to have an overdraft or loan to cover people not paying on time, so it's fair enough to add the costs of having to support late payments.
If you have to resort to the legal route make sure you have a good record of when you invoiced and attempted to seek payment before going to your solicitor as you need to demonstrate that the other party was not honouring their end of the contract between you (not necessarily a written one but that would help). Also advise both your solicitor and the customer that any legal fees associated with recovering the payment will also be sought (no point going through all this and ending up giving most of it to your solicitor).
Depending on the fees involved you might save yourself the bother of a solicitor by going to the small claims court: http://www.courts.ie/courts.ie/library3.nsf/pagecurrentweblookuptopnav/small%20claims%20procedure
Oh and if you do get paid, don;t do any more work for them - good for reducing the stress involved.
Best of luck getting sorted.

I've stood outside an office with a sign that read "XXXXX does not pay their bills"

I've also parked a van across someone's driveway at 7am so they couldnt leave for work/do the school run. Just left a note on the windscreen with my number saying I was off having a coffee and to call if they needed it moved.

Both instances they paid promptly.

TonyStark

ChRoMe wrote: »

I've stood outside an office with a sign that read "XXXXX does not pay their bills"

I've also parked a van across someone's driveway at 7am so they couldnt leave for work/do the school run. Just left a note on the windscreen with my number saying I was off having a coffee and to call if they needed it moved.

Both instances they paid promptly.

That's actually legendary...do business with them afterwards?

ChRoMe

TonyStark wrote: »

That's actually legendary...do business with them afterwards?

I did in my b0llocks.

pushpop

Hi everyone


Thanks again for your suggestions, clearly this is a widespread problem. Some very creative solutions out there for sure. I think what I'm going to do is wait until this Wednesday and if there's been no resolution, I'm going to start turning things off. I sent this guy a text last Monday asking for him to leave out a cheque but he said was on holiday until last Friday and there was nobody in the office to sign it, but had the cheek to ask for an AdWords report.

I have the keys to his website, his DNS records, his social media pages and his AdWords , so if I haven't been sorted I'll kill his AdWords campaign. If another passes without resolution I'll hit his social media pages, and then rename index.php so the home page throws up a 404.

I'm actually furious at this stage, as this guy is well known in the profession he is in and is solvent and earning a couple of million a year

stevenmu

pushpop wrote: »

I have the keys to his website, his DNS records, his social media pages and his AdWords , so if I haven't been sorted I'll kill his AdWords campaign. If another passes without resolution I'll hit his social media pages, and then rename index.php so the home page throws up a 404.

I'd suggest thinking very carefully about doing that. I'm sure it would give you an enormous sense of satisfaction, but it could be considered criminal damage and/or illegally accessing a computer system, and your customer could potentially sue you for damages, lost custom etc.

grahamor

Do you have a really old version of the website you could put up instead ?!

Or, you could turn off the lights !!

* {
    color:#000 !important;
    background:#000 !important;
    border:none !important;
}

img {display:none;}

touts

Unfortunately there are many bastards like this out there in many industries. It's pretty clear he has no intention on paying you and it has nothing to do with being solvent. You need to play equally hard with him. Call into his office and face to face tell him if he doesn't pay you will permanently lock him out of his website and redirect the links on it to his main rivals. Tell him also that you will spread the word to every other developer that he doesn't pay for the work so he will never find someone to fix the site again. Don't send him a text or e-mail or voice mail or anything that he could use as evidence. Just face to face threaten to ruin his business if he does not pay for the work. That's the only language these guys understand.

ChRoMe

Don't take any action right now, but change the passwords /create backdoor accounts in preparation.

Good luck!

[-0-]

If he has a few million he could hound you with lawyers too, if you take the wrong action.

Seriously, consult your solicitor. In the meantime, change the passwords to all accounts until payment is received. The sites are still up and functional at that point.

Best of luck.

pushpop

[-0-] wrote: »

If he has a few million he could hound you with lawyers too, if you take the wrong action.

Seriously, consult your solicitor. In the meantime, change the passwords to all accounts until payment is received. The sites are still up and functional at that point.

Best of luck.

I agree, it's a very difficult call. For now, I've changed the user settings on the web server so only I can admin it. I have a feeling it'll be a case of who blinks first with this.

jetsonx

pushpop wrote: »

I agree, it's a very difficult call. For now, I've changed the user settings on the web server so only I can admin it. I have a feeling it'll be a case of who blinks first with this.

Your action is still not decisive enough to bring this case to resolution. He (or his unfortunate new website admin) might not need to change settings or content on his website for a couple of months. And this case is just going linger on. I've sent you a PM.

pushpop

jetsonx wrote: »

Your action is still not decisive enough to bring this case to resolution. He (or his unfortunate new website admin) might not need to change settings or content on his website for a couple of months. And this case is just going linger on. I've sent you a PM.

Just replied

eire_sai

A few new bugs would quickly get his attention. Make sure you have a master backup and change all passwords except yours.

Expect a call saying for example, "The search isnt working". You say, "Oh really, I didnt know but anyway you owe me money".

Your payment suddenly becomes his priority.

fergalr

stevenmu wrote: »

I'd suggest thinking very carefully about doing that. I'm sure it would give you an enormous sense of satisfaction, but it could be considered criminal damage and/or illegally accessing a computer system, and your customer could potentially sue you for damages, lost custom etc.

Listen to what Stevenmu said.


Its easy for people on the Internet, who have been in similar frustrating situations, to urge you to take aggressive action.


But they won't be there with you if your highly resourced client decides to sue you, because of some consequential damage that you didn't think was as big a deal as you getting paid.


Consider whether any course of action has an unlikely but potentially painful downside.

Bear in mind that the legal system doesn't have a great track record of understanding technology.

People continuing to give aggressive or 'decisive' advice should bear this in mind, too.

pushpop wrote: »

I'm actually furious at this stage, as this guy is well known in the profession he is in and is solvent and earning a couple of million a year

Don't make any decisions when you are furious.

bonzo_k

If you can wait until he requires more work to be done that would be best. You can get what is owed to you then. Websites need scheduled maintaince to keep the site and server ticking along.

Aggressive action will not help and word gets around.

I have been in this situation many times and I understand your frustration.

Good luck

ChRoMe

fergalr wrote: »

People continuing to give aggressive or 'decisive' advice should bear this in mind, too.

Which is precisely why I gave examples of my passive aggressive actions, it's perfectly find to stand very close to the line, just not to cross it

jetsonx

fergalr wrote: »

Listen to what Stevenmu said.


Its easy for people on the Internet, who have been in similar frustrating situations, to urge you to take aggressive action.


But they won't be there with you if your highly resourced client decides to sue you, because of some consequential damage that you didn't think was as big a deal as you getting paid.


Consider whether any course of action has an unlikely but potentially painful downside.

Bear in mind that the legal system doesn't have a great track record of understanding technology.

People continuing to give aggressive or 'decisive' advice should bear this in mind, too.

.

So what do you suggest.

Let this case linger on until it becomes a distance memory for the client?

I've seen so many "nice" Irish business owners let debts slowly linger until they come to a stage where they can't pay their own debts and after a while it creeps up on them and they eventually have to close their business. Not nice to watch.

fergalr

jetsonx wrote: »

I've seen so many "nice" Irish business owners let debts slowly linger until they come to a stage where they can't pay their own debts and after a while it creeps up on them and they eventually have to close their business. Not nice to watch.

Sure - its frustrating. I've been there in a previous startup, trying to recover (a small sum of) money from a client who wouldn't pay, for no good reason.

jetsonx wrote: »

So what do you suggest.

Let this case linger on until it becomes a distance memory for the client?

Like you said earlier:

jetsonx wrote: »

What you need to do know is go to his office in person and firmly demand payment from him. Then he knows you are serious. Simple as that.
Don't be shy about this. Business is business and jokers like this put people like yourself out of business everyday.

If you're not prepared to do that; you might not be suited to working for yourself - because unfortunately there are a lot more of his ilk out there.

Even turning up in person doesn't always work, unfortunately, but that's one option to pursue.


What I'm saying is that you have to be exceedingly careful about making changes to the website or computer system, unless you are 100% sure you are legally within your rights to do so.

Which is incredibly hard to be sure of, because courts sometimes interpret these things in ways that make no sense to IT professionals.

Even actions like this (and this is speaking generally, not advice in any specific situation)

ChRoMe wrote: »

I've stood outside an office with a sign that read "XXXXX does not pay their bills"

might cause you some sort of problems with defamation law, but at least you won't fall foul of draconian computer misuse law.



Anyway, we've had this discussion on boards before.

The right answer is to A) Only deal with people you trust or make sure your contract that you sign with people clearly documents what will happen if you aren't paid, and talks about retention of ownership of work, and maybe describes some form of copy protection that will disable the software from running if you aren't paid, in a clear upfront and legally allowable way, which your solicitor signs off on, which you then implement. Basically, if you want to be able to enforce penalties if you aren't paid, get them into the legal framework of your contract. If you didn't do that, then learn for the next time.


Finally, its not my job to come up with a good solution, just because I correctly say that someone else's proposed course of action could have serious downsides, which should be built into any analysis.


Cost/benefit.

MyPeopleDrankTheSoup

I assume you're not self-employed in the client game fergal if you're scared of being sued for defamation by someone when they owe YOU money!

The client game is a tough racket, especially with the cowboys in this country. I've had similiar problems before OP and I filed a small claims court dispute and was paid the day the legal letter came in his front door.

I've no advice to give you for the future OP, I'm just glad that I make my money purely through paid apps now. There's no chasing Google and Apple every month for money!

fergalr

georgiecasey wrote: »

I assume you're not self-employed in the client game fergal if you're scared of being sued for defamation by someone when they owe YOU money!

I never said I'm scared of being sued for defamation by someone who owes me money.

The context of this thread is that yer man has a client who:

pushpop wrote: »

is well known in the profession he is in and is solvent and earning a couple of million a year

People who are "well known" and "earning a couple of million a year", but are employing contractors to do their websites, might have public personas.

So it'd be stupid to go and stand outside their offices with a sign, without at least thinking about whether there's a defamation angle to consider.

But, the point I actually made was that its probably not as stupid as sabotaging the website and potentially getting caught up in a computer crime shítstorm, because at least the legal system understands guys with signs, and won't surprise you with an 'unauthorised access of computers' criminal charge.

georgiecasey wrote: »

The client game is a tough racket, especially with the cowboys in this country. I've had similiar problems before OP and I filed a small claims court dispute and was paid the day the legal letter came in his front door.

It is shocking that there are cowboys around, and it is sometimes hard to get paid if you deal with them.

Doesn't mean the OP shouldn't consider these angles, and tread carefully.

georgiecasey wrote: »

I've no advice to give you for the future OP, I'm just glad that I make my money purely through paid apps now. There's no chasing Google and Apple every month for money!

Good for you; I reckon the App store is like New York - if you can make it there you can make it anywhere - so fair play to you.

ChRoMe

fergalr wrote: »

Even actions like this (and this is speaking generally, not advice in any specific situation)

might cause you some sort of problems with defamation law, but at least you won't fall foul of draconian computer misuse law.

Defamation law doesn't mean you can't say things about people that they don't like. The two rules of thumb are it must be published and it must be false.

Both examples I provided are completely legal.

oscarBravo

ChRoMe wrote: »

Defamation law doesn't mean you can't say things about people that they don't like. The two rules of thumb are it must be published and it must be false.

Both examples I provided are completely legal.

The problem with defamation law is that truth is a defence, not a preventative. In other words, even if what you say is true, that won't stop you being sued for defamation; it might help you not to lose the case.

The problem is, if you're in court, you've already lost.

srsly78

Chrome you might be right in the UK, but I think Ireland has really stupid laws for this stuff.

fergalr

In addition to what OscarBravo says, I'm pretty sure the burden of proof is on the defendant here. (I think they changed the law in the UK recently, not sure how it stands there.)

So, you'd need decent documentation to prove that you haven't been paid.


Anyway, I'm not saying do or don't wave a sign around. I'm just saying its preferable to getting into a computer crimes mess.
(I only mentioned there might be a defamation angle to consider in passing.)

The Corinthian

musicfan1ie wrote: »

If he doesnt pay, you may be able to petition the court for a liquidation order as a creditor. It represents proof as to inability of payment, so he may be insolvent. I reckon if you speak to your solicitor and then, threaten that you may need to take this step, he'll pay

Not so simple; to do that one needs to be legally recognised as a creditor and there's more to that than sending someone an invoice. My guess is that the OP doesn't have the necessary paper-trail to prove this without court proceedings.

This is a long term client that I presume the OP has made a good bit of money from over the years, so my first instinct is to see if it can be resolved amicably - if it can, this keeps the door open for future work. It is entirely possible that they're in financial trouble at present, like many businesses, and would have otherwise paid by now.

The OP should try to go for coffee or lunch with the client and raise this topic and if they admit this, then suggest an alternative payment schedule, citing your past history and that, ultimately, both of you would lose out if the relationship were to sour.

Failing that, I agree with the suggestion that the 'harassment' approach is often the most effective - at he end of the day, that's the approach that debt collectors use. Turn up on a daily, or random basis, both at their place of work, and where this isn't enough, their home address.

looksee

Apparently Ireland is one of the worst countries for 'leaning on the trade' I think is the expression, something like that, in other words not paying till the last possible minute. My experience was that it was the bigger companies who were the worst for not paying. Mostly I managed it, you need a brass neck, but go and stand in reception and ask to see the accountant/client/ whoever. Regardless of whether they are 'off for a week' or just 'out', stay there. Be ever so slightly in the way of other customers, very pleasantly. Make the point to the receptionist numerous times how you need to be paid and its over 90 days etc, preferably when there are other people in reception. Be very polite, but a complete nuisance.

My best effort was in a restaurant, when I caught the owner in the middle of the restaurant and asked, politely and without raising my voice (well not very much :-)) to be paid as the account was well overdue (over 90 days and three invoices sent). She was absolutely horrified and told me I should not be discussing this in the restaurant, so I pointed out that if she paid her bills I would not have to. She paid me out of the till.

jetsonx

looksee wrote: »

Be very polite, but a complete nuisance.

You know what with all the waffle on this thread you have summed up how to deal with situation with beautiful brevity.

When you're polite people can never accuse you of anything. If you get angry or raise your voice -it gives them another possible excuse for not paying.

After a while of being a complete ( but polite)nuisance, you will really start to get under their skin! You begin to grind them down.

No shouting, no ranting, yes there will possibly still be need for confrontation but it will be an nice type of confrontation (but it will really annoy the toad who is trying to avoid payment). This technique nearly always works.

ChRoMe

jetsonx wrote: »

You know what with all the waffle on this thread you have summed up how to deal with situation with beautiful brevity.

When you're polite people can never accuse you of anything. If you get angry or raise your voice -it gives them another possible excuse for not paying.

After a while of being a complete ( but polite)nuisance, you will really start to get under their skin! You begin to grind them down.

No shouting, no ranting, yes there will possibly still be need for confrontation but it will be an nice type of confrontation (but it will really annoy the toad who is trying to avoid payment). This technique nearly always works.

I don't think anyone here has advocated getting angry,shouting etc?

The Corinthian

ChRoMe wrote: »

I don't think anyone here has advocated getting angry,shouting etc?

Doesn't hurt to underline the importance of staying calm; when physically in front of a likely deadbeat client, the temptation to let loose of all that pent up frustration can be pretty powerful...