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The Modern Man 2.0
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The Corinthian wrote: »Male anti-heroes are not exactly role models, any more than the bumbling fools, either. At least I hope not.
The reason I've chosen film and media is because, given how much of it is US based nowadays, regardless of where you're watching it, it gives us a failrly international view. That's why I mentioned largely actors from US-international film earlier; Mastraoni too, as he had his time in the sun on the international stage for a while - if I said Vittorio Gassman, it probably wouldn't mean much to most people here.
Now can anyone point out a few comparable examples today? What role models are being churned out in international television? Michael C. Hall (Dexter Morgan) perhaps? Aidan Gillen (Petyr Baelish / Littlefinger)? Johnny Galecki (Leonard Hofstadter)? Jon Hamm (Don Draper)?
Hardly who we'd consider positive role models.
And it's not that we don't do role models at all; other than mentioning Sex and the City earlier, we've seen no shortage of role models such as Kristen Bell (Veronica Mars) or Anna Paquin (Sookie Stackhouse).
This is what is being discussed here; has there been a decrease in role models for men, and if so, what's taken their place, if anything?
Eh I don't know who most of those people are.
Well, there's a duality to choosing fictional characters, so leaving that aside for a moment, I'll reference the one person on that list I can recognise. And I'll park the fictional characters.
John Hamm just by being in the public view is a role model in the sense of YES I CAN for any aspiring male actor. Hollywood has plenty of males in employment of all ages. We see plenty of handsome white men on our screens. So... Next generations can stand on the shoulders of giants soto speak, just as John Hamm did.
Then you have the geek squads, who hold up Steve Jobs as a role model, and the many men they learn about through their studies in science and engineering.
Same for politics.
It's as much about legacy as it is about what is current.0 -
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I'm not sure Jobs qualifies as a "male" role model. A business role-model to some entrepreneurs perhaps, and there are two polar opposite camps on that ... but a "male" role model? No. No way.
Maybe not for the Irish. But for American geek boys, yes.
So..I'm concluding from the past few posts the Irish import American fictional characters but not real life American men as role models?
Plus those guys mentioned by pawed rigg earlier? 0 -
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clairefontaine wrote: »So..I'm concluding from the past few posts the Irish import American fictional characters but not real life American men as role models?
Plus those guys mentioned by pawed rigg earlier?
I am not sure how you have come to those conclusions as your query was for Irish role models. Now you have expanded that to American role models and have deduced the tastes of a nation based on a couple of posts.
Personally as a former Engineer I have great admiration for the Gordon Moore's, Steve Jobs, Andy Grove's of this world. American culture is an influence here as is British/Australian etc. Mainland Euro culture is not as strong as the others presumably due to language barriers.0 -
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Modern man
We need to ask women, which would they prefer?
Everyone talks about emasculation of modern man, but you cant emasculate a man without his consent. Personally, I am of the Rambo role model childhood. I dont get some of the modern man fascination with femininity. Frankly its embarrassing to me as a bloke, I do look in shame at some blokes walking around, but hey its a free world and better for it, its just not how I would carry myself, each to their own.0 -
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I've always thought that men and women who dress like that are simply bad dressers, regardless of their motivation. If one wants to dress to look younger or thinner or richer or more fashionable, one can, just most don't seem to know how to without making a pigs ear out of it.mariaalice wrote: »Do you know what I do think looks a bit silly...the expression mutton dressed as lamb...was usually thought of as referring to woman however yesterday I saw a man who must have been late fifties and he was dressing in skinny jeans, brown brogues, one of them short black coats and a mint green scarf he looked so funny.
Indeed, and as we all know irredeemable cùnts never get the girl...You've got to be kidding. The character is an irredeemable cvnt.
Still, it's interesting to note, that Don Draper is seen as a role model to some, possibly as a result of lack of choice.
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Modern man
We need to ask women, which would they prefer?
Everyone talks about emasculation of modern man, but you cant emasculate a man without his consent. Personally, I am of the Rambo role model childhood. I dont get some of the modern man fascination with femininity. Frankly its embarrassing to me as a bloke, I do look in shame at some blokes walking around, but hey its a free world and better for it, its just not how I would carry myself, each to their own.
To be honest, even as a child, I thought that Rambo was a ridiculously limited caricature of a man; the obsession with physicality accompanied by an even stronger anti-intellectual and anti-cosmopolitan undercurrent.
I think there is a much greater variety of role models (both male and female) for young boys these days and that speaks to a less conservative, rigid, reductionist idea of masculinity than once was. And, for me, that's a good thing.0 -
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average hero wrote: »Hi everyone,
I am interested to have everyone's input in a friendly debate about the modern man. As a heavy believer in evolution and the fact that we came from the ape family, I believe that we are all essentially animals, albeit highly evolved animals.
With this being said, hundreds of years ago, men were hunters in the tribes and only about 100 years ago, men were working hard graft jobs in factories or out on farms.
Today, most people have jobs that do not have as much physical labour in them, fast food is available everywhere, physicality is not a trait that is valued (thankfully in some ways) and the attitudes of men today are vastly different to men say even of 60/70 years ago.
Some media outlets (The Sopranos for one) have tried to define what is 'masculine' nowadays and how the modern man is wildly different to his forefathers. The main character in the Sopranos frequently struggled to merge his version of masculinity with what was acceptable in current society.
So, what do you think is masculine nowadays? Has society changed masculinity for the better or the worse? Are we moving towards a completely changed man?
Hazardous physically demanding labor is performed overwhelmingly by men. The majority of scientists, engineers, inventors, academics, writers and artists are predominantly men.
Politics, religion, business and the military are dominated by men.
Much of the world is ruled by tyrants, oligarchs, generals, warlords, theocrats, tycoons and other ruthless individuals who are predominantly men.
The overwhelming majority of women in the world live in poverty and are burdened with child rearing and are objectified and considered the possessions and playthings of men.
Much of the world is ruled by fear and brutal intimidation which are used by powerful men to keep other men in line and in submission.
Judging by the physical features of male movie stars and male musicians and male athletes and other men who are sexually appealing to women, the same physical characteristics that have always given some men an advantage over less physically attractive specimens are still highly prized by females.
Judging by the appeal that President Obama has among female voter, women defer to classic masculine authority figures who display charisma, confidence, a baritone voice, physical vitality and good looks.
Physical weakness, overt emotion, lack of confidence and a deficiency in bravado in men are as unappealing today as they have always been.
Some females have climbed the career ladders and rival men e.g. Thatcher, Merkel etc. but for the most part the rest still with little nor reflection slip into the well worn groove of motherhoods and childrearing.
Women who do not conform to female stereotypes are more frequently attacked by females than men. The late Mrs Thatcher was more hated by feminists than by male chauvinists. A prominent female MP claimed that she did not see Thatcher as a woman!
Look at how women who kill are vilified?
Myra Hindley is considered an aberration while her murderous boyfriend barely is discussed.
Fred West would attract little interest were it not for his wife Rose.
Amanda Knox became the focus of attention while her Italian boyfriends whose name escapes me might as well have been invisible.
The stereotype of the witch, of a woman who has power over others, as some kind unnatural creature still persists.
It is clearly a lie that world has changed. It has not and remains the same as it has been for perhaps thousands of years.
The gender roles remain starkly defined and anyone who attempts to break out of the male or female stereotype better have thick skin because they will be mercilessly attacked.
Masculinity has remained fixed for thousands of years and resurfaces again and again.
The Hunter Gatherer.
The Egyptian.
The Greek.
The Roman
The Knight
The Musketeer.
The Cowboy
The GI
The Terrorist
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The Corinthian wrote: »
Actually that video (not the Mad Men parts but the bits promoting the website complete with the music) exactly identifies what the "Modern Man" is, or is "supposed" to be - an insecure, validation needing, in touch with his feelings, emasculated shadow of his predecessors.
Now I'm hardly Tarzan swinging through the jungle, nor do I go around in wife-beater t-shirts making sexist jokes and slapping women on the ass, but I'm not particularly PC, have no problem calling something as I see it (something that I've seen cause constant arguments on this very site as someone uses it as a reason to take offense and therefore deflect from the point that was being made), I don't feel the need to share and discuss all my feelings with friends (but will do so with a partner to an extent), and I don't think I've ever had a fantasy/fictional role model that I aspired to.
I'm 38 and as such grew up in the 80s - a time when "men were men and women were women", and I mean that insofar as that people knew what was expected of them and where they stood in society. Of course I'm not blind to the problems that existed (mostly IMO due to the undue influence of the Catholic Church on this country and that it managed to hold us back culturally for decades), but I think life was simpler (and in many ways better) for sure.
Similarly I'm not much of a believer in "modern parenting" which tries to tell us that kids are in fact just small adults who you should attempt to reason which as such when, as a 3 year old, they are throwing a tantrum or telling you to feck off etc - just watch an episode of Supernanny for what I mean!
Again I'm not saying kids should be beaten black and blue without/at the slightest provocation either, but I think that the idea that instilling some sort of boundaries, respect and indeed expectations is "harmful" to the free spirit that is the modern child leads to these identity crisis (and worse) that some have referred to in this thread.
Nor do I think that women should be tied between home and children, and I support my partner's ambitions and choices fully, but that doesn't mean that I will change who I am to not risk offending her or her friends/family either (again I'm not saying that I'll walk in to the family dinner, stick my feet up on the table and belch loudly while making demands
but if someone is so sensitive that you have to tip-toe around them, well then I probably wouldn't be spending time with them anyway). Of course relationships are about communication and compromise but that doesn't mean (either of) you should roll over and play dead either!
Ah I'm probably not explaining myself well but hopefully my above ramblings will make some sort of sense to some - for me I guess society started its decline in the late 80s/early 90s with the advent of Sky and the Internet and the talk shows, self-help infomercials and pushing of the idea that people were missing vital elements in their social make-up that came with those mediums (just look at the text of the promo after the clips on the above video for the perfect example - "become a better man" indeed!).. sure they even had a counselor on the deck of the Enterprise-D which sums it up perfectly really!
My 2c anyway.. signed: an old-fashioned (in some ways!) kinda guy!0 -
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Tom Crean
The Casey Brothers from Sneem
I'm from Waterford, but those men above are the lads I would hope to hold as role models...Kerry Men.
That's being a man!
Talking about gender roles...Man fail.
Having a wee man to raise myself, and his sister, ably assisted by my wan!
This topic is of interest to me, but I think some go too deep into it.
I'm not a big fan of SuperNanny or the "naughty step/stool".
Some children on that show need a slap!
"Spare the rod and spoil the child" as was a typical saying back in my day.
Kids raised in family settings where their Dad is an asshole will find other male role models to emulate.
There is a life coaching mantra, that you are the sum total of X amount of friends, should this not apply to your family also?
Cut away useless family members and keep role model mates around for your kids to see and be positively influenced by?
Being a man, I think young men are more drawn to fighting and hunting, by genetic inclination.
Trying to condition that out of them doesn't work.
Safely channeling it into skate parks or contact sports works much better, that is where their natural interest lies.
1E isn't what young men see as their natural role model, more Eminem and Dr. Dre...
For me it was Carlos Hathcock, a quiet man with a difficult tasking.0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W79t5qxKafw
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