IT System in Dole Offices

belinda502

I was wondering what sort of IT system is used by Irish social welfare offices. Is it standardised across all offices across the country? If you send them in something, is it logged? Any information would be appreciated.

CptSternn

What exactly do you mean by 'system'? As with any office, you have multiple systems. An email system, a database system, a web interface, etc. These lads are no different. Plus, under Irish law all correspondence must be retained for five years, so all things you email them not only are logged in multiple places but also archived in a separate database system that retains pretty much everything coming in and out.

They use the same network at all locations so this is true with all offices. All government offices use a centralised system and external offices connect up via different ways but are all on the same network/domain.

Also, every single government office these days outsources a majority of this work so the actual data is being housed in multiple redundant cloud sites across the country by companies like IBM, HP, and Microsoft. These same companies setup and manage all the systems and the government employees are merely end users.

The question isn't what is social welfare logging as much as it is what are the big tech companies who provide the government with all the IT systems and services logging. The answer is everything, multiple times over.

kippy

CptSternn wrote: »

What exactly do you mean by 'system'? As with any office, you have multiple systems. An email system, a database system, a web interface, etc. These lads are no different. Plus, under Irish law all correspondence must be retained for five years, so all things you email them not only are logged in multiple places but also archived in a separate database system that retains pretty much everything coming in and out.

They use the same network at all locations so this is true with all offices. All government offices use a centralised system and external offices connect up via different ways but are all on the same network/domain.

Also, every single government office these days outsources a majority of this work so the actual data is being housed in multiple redundant cloud sites across the country by companies like IBM, HP, and Microsoft. These same companies setup and manage all the systems and the government employees are merely end users.

The question isn't what is social welfare logging as much as it is what are the big tech companies who provide the government with all the IT systems and services logging. The answer is everything, multiple times over.

None of those organisations host data for the States bodies.....there is essentially no "Cloud" being hosted by them either.
As far as I am aware the data is hosted on government owned servers in government owned buildings and managed by government staff.

Those organisations provide consultancy and the hardware to the state but the data remains the property of the state and within state owned architecture.

CptSternn

kippy wrote: »

None of those organisations host data for the States bodies.....there is essentially no "Cloud" being hosted by them either.
As far as I am aware the data is hosted on government owned servers in government owned buildings and managed by government staff.

Those organisations provide consultancy and the hardware to the state but the data remains the property of the state and within state owned architecture.

What do I know sure, I am only one of the lads who set it up when working for one of the aforementioned companies above.

kippy

CptSternn wrote: »

What do I know sure, I am only one of the lads who set it up when working for one of the aforementioned companies above.

I know some of the educational sector is moving towards cloud services for email, however MOST of what I know of the civil service IT infrastructure that hosts data is wholly owned by the state.
As I said consultants are widely used but for the ones I am aware of, the data is hosted within the organisations.
I'd add, I believe there was a look at the best way forward for the use of cloud services done by the public service reform side of things and a number of vendors were asked to setup some cloud based services as a "working concept" however I don't believe it has gone any further than that.
http://per.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/Cloud-Computing-Strategy.pdf

belinda502

CptSternn wrote: »

What exactly do you mean by 'system'? As with any office, you have multiple systems. An email system, a database system, a web interface, etc. These lads are no different. Plus, under Irish law all correspondence must be retained for five years, so all things you email them not only are logged in multiple places but also archived in a separate database system that retains pretty much everything coming in and out.

They use the same network at all locations so this is true with all offices. All government offices use a centralised system and external offices connect up via different ways but are all on the same network/domain.

Also, every single government office these days outsources a majority of this work so the actual data is being housed in multiple redundant cloud sites across the country by companies like IBM, HP, and Microsoft. These same companies setup and manage all the systems and the government employees are merely end users.

The question isn't what is social welfare logging as much as it is what are the big tech companies who provide the government with all the IT systems and services logging. The answer is everything, multiple times over.

Thanks for your comprehensive response. I am doing a project on Information Systems on an ICT Skills course. I am primarily interested in correspondence that comes into the offices. Presumably when any correspondence comes into a social welfare it has to be logged. What sort of system, presumably database is the correspondence logged into? Is it a Linux based system? Do they scan the document in, or is simply a note entered into the system that a letter was received on a particular date. Whenever I have been into the office, they seem to hold large hard copy files for clients.

Cork24

this is a Pencil Layout i just did,

most offices would have 3 Server maybe more

2 acting as DNS and DHCP Servers

the others would be File / Email and print Servers

all connected to a Switch which is then connected to all the computers in the office,

Routers would be for the datacenter and for the Web

uch

CptSternn wrote: »

What do I know sure, I am only one of the lads who set it up when working for one of the aforementioned companies above.

You don't know very much so, The Revenue Commissioners have extensive Datacentres which host all their own systems, they also host Dept of Education servers, Publicjobs servers, Dept. of Justice servers and several more are coming to Revenue Hosting. Dept of Social Protection (social welfare) have their own Datacentre.

kippy

Cork24 wrote: »

this is a Pencil Layout i just did,

most offices would have 3 Server maybe more

2 acting as DNS and DHCP Servers

the others would be File / Email and print Servers

all connected to a Switch which is then connected to all the computers in the office,

Routers would be for the datacenter and for the Web

That's not in any way correct either, I would think, as in you don't really need three separate pieces of hardware to provide those services, indeed you dont even need a single server in a setup such as that, should the link speeds be up to spec......

Cork24

kippy wrote: »

That's not in any way correct either, I would think, as in you don't really need three separate pieces of hardware to provide those services, indeed you dont even need a single server in a setup such as that, should the link speeds be up to spec......

in what way would you think its not correct,

same set up as to what i have seen in a few office buildings

number of Servers

and Access to a CIX in Cork and a Data Center in Dublin as Back up

kippy

Cork24 wrote: »

in what way would you think its not correct,

same set up as to what i have seen in a few office buildings

number of Servers

and Access to a CIX in Cork and a Data Center in Dublin as Back up

They weren't set up very well if there were three separate Servers running DNS, DHCP and file and print.......

Generally the setup depends on the government dept in question.


I'd add, the general trend in MOST major organisations with many offices through out the place is to increase bandwidth going into those offices, move any services hosted in those offices back to the "central" data center and have all major costly hardware situated in one location, as opposed to many many pieces of hardware all over the place, each requiring maintenance, licensing, updating, backing up etc etc etc. The central data centre would then generally have a hot DR site available if issues arise.
The only reasoning worth thinking about in relation to having servers in an office now is for local file storage where the files may be larger than normal.

Cork24

I take it you never work on a server

And don't know how bandwidth works over a server with over 100 computers logging on to one server..

If you done MCSA and MCSE you would learn why you would have 2 server actin as DNS and DHCP servers

What if your server went down no one would be able to long onto their computers

Plus if you share the bandwidth over two servers you would see the bonus of it as we'll

kippy

Cork24 wrote: »

I take it you never work on a server

And don't know how bandwidth works over a server with over 100 computers logging on to one server..

If you done MCSA and MCSE you would learn why you would have 2 server actin as DNS and DHCP servers

What if your server went down no one would be able to long onto their computers

Plus if you share the bandwidth over two servers you would see the bonus of it as we'll

I wouldnt know what a server was if it hit me in the face tbh.
No idea what those acronyms mean either to be honest.
You have me found out.

Cork24

We'll your system architecture isn't the best,
From one of your past comments your talking about no need to having servers at the office other then using as a file server

You should always have a active directory server / DHCP in house

Never saw active directory over "cloud" networking I don't think the dole office I cork would have their user accounts and computer account policy's in a server in Dublin.. They would have it in house.

But you would have a super user in dunlin on a server which would have all other servers in a tree architecture inside users and computers manage tool

Which he can manage the cork dole server and add users to that domain

Standard Toaster

Jayus...

kippy

Cork24 wrote: »

We'll your system architecture isn't the best,
From one of your past comments your talking about no need to having servers at the office other then using as a file server

You should always have a active directory server / DHCP in house

Never saw active directory over "cloud" networking I don't think the dole office I cork would have their user accounts and computer account policy's in a server in Dublin.. They would have it in house.

But you would have a super user in dunlin on a server which would have all other servers in a tree architecture inside users and computers manage tool

Which he can manage the cork dole server and add users to that domain

Honestly, I am not sure if you are on a wind up or being serious.
Either way, I am in stitches here.......

I never did architecture so I've at least an excuse there.

Cork24

Typing on Iphone either way if im on a wind up or being serious or not,

But on a Serious note the way things are at the moment with the HSE losing laptop like theirs no tomorrow i wouldn't be surprised on what way the dole office have their IT system

kippy

Cork24 wrote: »

Typing on Iphone either way if im on a wind up or being serious or not,

But on a Serious note the way things are at the moment with the HSE losing laptop like theirs no tomorrow i wouldn't be surprised on what way the dole office have their IT system

Not sure how relevant lost laptops are to IT infrastructure or this conversation in general.

Cork24

kippy wrote: »

Not sure how relevant lost laptops are to IT infrastructure or this conversation in general.

with all the laptops that went "Missing" Not one had an encryption..

So makes you wonder about the information that is stored on the Dole Server's have have they got an encryption on them

kippy

Cork24 wrote: »

with all the laptops that went "Missing" Not one had an encryption..

So makes you wonder about the information that is stored on the Dole Server's have have they got an encryption on them

You'd wonder alright........
Just for the record, are your other posts on this thread serious?

Graham

Cork24 wrote: »

Never saw active directory over "cloud" networking I don't think the dole office I cork would have their user accounts and computer account policy's in a server in Dublin.. They would have it in house.

Have you worked in many government departments/agencies? A lot of government departments have consolidated servers into 1 or 2 data centres and removed remote/regional servers almost entirely.

Given that WLAN connectivity is often over multiple redundant links, the risks are mitigated to a large extent. Even assuming multiple links go offline, access to centralised systems will be unavailable so having an onsite AD server isn't going to allow business to continue anyway.

Cork24

Graham wrote: »

Have you worked in many government departments/agencies? A lot of government departments have consolidated servers into 1 or 2 data centres and removed remote/regional servers almost entirely.

Given that WLAN connectivity is often over multiple redundant links, the risks are mitigated to a large extent. Even assuming multiple links go offline, access to centralised systems will be unavailable so having an onsite AD server isn't going to allow business to continue anyway.

They are many pluses to having an onsite AD.

I just cant see the logical of having a Server room with just a bunch of Switches and a few Routers connected to Government Data-centers
without the need of a AD or an In-house DHCP Server

if what your Saying is True you would need at lest a number of Admins for each region within the Data center.
and hiring a number of Admin to work in house.

and what kind of time frame of a turn around would you have if a new person joins the office, or leaves the office. before an Administrator up in Dublin creates that user and sets policy's to his account.




at that i don't think Irish Technically infrastructure is not where should it should, unlike the rest of our Europe friends.

Right You have 6 Data-centers in Dublin figures,
You have around 3 in Galway
and 1 crap Data-Center in Cork.

other then that the likes of EMC and Vmware have their own DataCenters.

Graham

Cork24 wrote: »

They are many pluses to having an onsite AD.

I just cant see the logical of having a Server room with just a bunch of Switches and a few Routers connected to Government Data-centers
without the need of a AD or an In-house DHCP Server

if what your Saying is True you would need at lest a number of Admins for each region within the Data center.
and hiring a number of Admin to work in house.

and what kind of time frame of a turn around would you have if a new person joins the office, or leaves the office. before an Administrator up in Dublin creates that user and sets policy's to his account.

Many regional offices/sites in many government departments didn't have a server room. In fact many were lucky to even have a server rack until a few years ago. It wouldn't be unusual to find a server covered in dust at the back of a locked store cupboard.

If you have 50 or 60 regional offices, each with redundant AD servers, file servers, mail servers, that's a large chunk of machines to purchase, manage, maintain and support. If you can consolidate a couple of hundred servers into a couple of dozen in a data centre the cost savings can be enormous.

Each government department does not need Admins in a data centre. It's a data centre, it's for hosting servers. There may be a handful of data centre staff where hands-on work is required but most work is usually performed remotely by a centralised IT function often by a 3rd party managed service provider (which potentially offers additional scope for economies of scale).

Turn around time should not be effected for new starters wherever they are located. HR and/or the receiving department/office raise a new user request which is sent for approval and processed centrally. It's not a case of popping into the office next door and asking Bob the admin to create a new user account for Billy the temp.

For the avoidance of doubt, none of my responses on this thread refer to the Dole Offices/Dept of Social Welfare specifically but government departments in general the world over.

Graham

Cork24 wrote: »

at that i don't think Irish Technically infrastructure is not where should it should, unlike the rest of our Europe friends.

Right You have 6 Data-centers in Dublin figures,
You have around 3 in Galway
and 1 crap Data-Center in Cork.

other then that the likes of EMC and Vmware have their own DataCenters.

It almost doesn't matter where the data centre is located as long as the required connectivity is in place.

You appear to only be referring to data centres operated by private/commercial operators and assuming that these are the data centres that Government departments use.

Cork24

Graham wrote: »

It almost doesn't matter where the data centre is located as long as the required connectivity is in place.

You appear to only be referring to data centres operated by private/commercial operators and assuming that these are the data centres that Government departments use.

The Government departments would have their own State own Centers.

Graham

Cork24 wrote: »

The Government departments would have their own State own Centers.

I'm guessing that you're just guessing now.

I can't think of many government departments that have their own data centres. Server rooms, yes/maybe. Data centres, not so much.

Shared service centres are becoming more popular though.

For the avoidance of doubt, none of my responses on this thread refer to the Dole Offices/Dept of Social Welfare specifically but government departments in general the world over.

kippy

Cork24, have you ever worked in a large IT environment with multiple sites?
Because your theory is a long way from reality, for good reason, in many such environments, particularly over the past 6-7 years since connectivity options have increased in speed and reduced in price.

MOST public bodies with multiple offices have been centralising almost all "shared" resources, be it email, web application servers, web servers, AD, DNS, DHCP, web filtering, IP telephony "back end" almost everything......
They've essentially defined a "head office" where the vast majority of server, switching and routing hardware (and all that goes with it) is located, and had all the other sites have high speed links, either over government networks or similiar, back into that building. That building itself usually has a hot site somewhere else as backup........
It's really about link speed nowadays, and avoiding where possible, many servers out in the "wild" essentially where they are generally not used to their full capacity, yet require all the requirements that go with maintaining servers.

If you take the time to read the document I linked to in an earlier post you will see that many departments are looking at consolidating even these "many" "head offices" in further efforts to cut costs and increase productivity over a longer term.
No different to a vast majority of larger private sector organisations.
Connectivity is key.

kippy

Cork24 wrote: »

They are many pluses to having an onsite AD.

I just cant see the logical of having a Server room with just a bunch of Switches and a few Routers connected to Government Data-centers
without the need of a AD or an In-house DHCP Server

if what your Saying is True you would need at lest a number of Admins for each region within the Data center.
and hiring a number of Admin to work in house.

and what kind of time frame of a turn around would you have if a new person joins the office, or leaves the office. before an Administrator up in Dublin creates that user and sets policy's to his account.




at that i don't think Irish Technically infrastructure is not where should it should, unlike the rest of our Europe friends.

Right You have 6 Data-centers in Dublin figures,
You have around 3 in Galway
and 1 crap Data-Center in Cork.

other then that the likes of EMC and Vmware have their own DataCenters.

Im not sure why you are so caught up in this "in house DHCP server" - a DHCP server can be run off a router in the office........if there is a requirement for a "local" DHCP server - which there generally isnt.
A local DC might be useful if you have unrealiable links and/or slow links however is rather pointless if the majority of applications you require aren't actually hosted within that building.

You don't need to physically be sitting at the server to create user accounts.........

Again, I am not sure how serious you are here, I am still taking what you are saying at face value.

Graham

kippy wrote: »

Im not sure why you are so caught up in this "in house DHCP server" - a DHCP server can be run off a router in the office........if there is a requirement for a "local" DHCP server - which there generally isnt.
A local DC might be useful if you have unrealiable links and/or slow links however is rather pointless if the majority of applications you require aren't actually hosted within that building.

You don't need to physically be sitting at the server to create user accounts..........

+1

it's a line of thinking that was probably relevant/appropriate a few years ago when data connectivity was a lot more expensive and a lot less reliable.

Ctrl Alt Del

Just reading and enjoy IT !
Any of you works in NSA !?
If not , pitty as they should have by now a full diagram of the network in question...

Graham

Ctrl Alt Del wrote: »

Just reading and enjoy IT !
Any of you works in NSA !?
If not , pitty as they should have by now a full diagram of the network in question...

Perhaps if the NSA are passing they can decode your post :pac: