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I pay taxes for that

124

Comments

  • #92
    m5ex9oqjawdg2i
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,217 ✭✭✭✭m5ex9oqjawdg2i


    jackal wrote: »
    I am on a good wage ~60k: Here is what I contribute to the dole.

    €1,823.19
    Working Age Income Supports
    €350.71
    Working Age Employment Supports

    To support one person for the basic dole payment of €188 per week takes about 5 of me paying taxes.

    Kind of makes me sick.

    Why does it make you sick?


  • #93
    KyussBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    Layinghen wrote: »
    What do we need a secret service for?
    Judging by other countries, we need them to spy on us (though since the UK and US already do this for us, it likely doesn't cost us that much extra).


  • #94
    oppenheimer1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,733 ✭✭✭oppenheimer1


    shruikan2553 wrote: »
    67,131 euro in taxes if you earn 150k. It's amazing that the more you earn the less likely you are to use these services and yet you pay even more.

    Its called social solidarity. Or wealth redistribution.


  • #95
    oppenheimer1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,733 ✭✭✭oppenheimer1


    TheBandicoot wrote: »
    Is there any source for the data used or any evidence at all that is accurate and not biased?

    One would assume its a pro rata distribution of tax based on the national accounts published by the dept of finance under those headings.


  • #96
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    shruikan2553 wrote: »
    67,131 euro in taxes if you earn 150k. It's amazing that the more you earn the less likely you are to use these services and yet you pay even more.
    Nonsense. One of the great myths of our time is that the poor benefit from the capitalist state more than the rich. The rich rely on the governments to provide a major share of physical and economic infrastructure: they depend on the Government to implement law and order, to protect private property from mobs who would apprehend it, to educate their workforce, and to establish the landscape in which their businesses can profit, and where the poor are forced into labour to generate that profit.

    We live in a world where man has no entitlement to the resources his planet can provide. The unabashed object of that deprivation is a philosophy which seeks to enrich the rich by making them the ultimate beneficiaries of the modern capitalist state.


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  • #97
    Uriel.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,058 ✭✭✭Uriel.


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    Nonsense. One of the great myths of our time is that the poor benefit from the capitalist state more than the rich. The rich rely on the governments to provide a major share of physical and economic infrastructure: they depend on the Government to implement law and order, to protect private property from mobs who would apprehend it, to educate their workforce, and to establish the landscape in which their businesses can profit, and where the poor are forced into labour to generate that profit.

    We live in a world where man has no entitlement to the resources his planet can provide. The unabashed object of that deprivation is a philosophy which seeks to enrich the rich by making them the ultimate beneficiaries of the modern capitalist state.

    Were you holding a red flag while typing that bull**** analysis?


  • #98
    Geuze
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,513 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Stheno wrote: »
    Over 1/3 of my tax goes to social programmes!


    That's fairly typical across countries, I'd say, and not unusual.


  • #99
    Geuze
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,513 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    Not a straight answer then?

    What value do you put on a contingent guarantee of €400 billion of liabilities? Is it €0.00?

    The bank guarantee created a legal impediment to managing the Irish banks' liabilities in a businesslike manner; it guaranteed liabilities greater than out national GDP.

    And no, the guarantee isn't over. It simply isn't taking on new liabilities.

    I agree that private liabilities of private banks should not have been guaranteed.

    I am sickened that bank liabilities weren't hit for more, as bank asset values fell.

    http://www.ntma.ie/business-areas/funding-and-debt-management/eligible-liabilities-guarantee-scheme/


  • #100
    Mark Twain
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 121 ✭✭Mark Twain


    oppenheimer1 wrote: »
    Its called social solidarity. Or wealth redistribution.

    Beautiful buzzwords.


  • #101
    Ronald Brave Chip
    Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Ronald Brave Chip


    oppenheimer1 wrote: »
    Its called social solidarity. Or wealth redistribution.
    What sanitised ways of saying stealing
    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    The rich rely on the governments

    The problem there is the govts, not the rich


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  • #102
    Friend Computer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 369 ✭✭Friend Computer


    bluewolf wrote: »
    What sanitised ways of saying stealing

    What a sensationalist way of saying social safety net. And libertarians wonder why they're not taken seriously as a political movement...
    The problem there is the govts, not the rich

    Oh yes it's always the government's fault.


  • #103
    Ronald Brave Chip
    Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Ronald Brave Chip


    Friend Computer wrote: »

    Oh yes it's always the government's fault.

    It's a little bizarre to hear that "money and political power are the problems" and that people with both can't be trusted, so take away their money. Except for that other group of rich people with political power, somehow they're to be trusted despite a strong record indicating otherwise.
    Makes a lot more sense to take away the political power and force in the first place.


  • #104
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    bluewolf wrote: »
    What sanitised ways of saying stealing
    Oh so lets see how far you take this. Are you suggesting there should be no redistribution?
    bluewolf wrote: »
    It's a little bizarre to hear that "money and political power are the problems" and that people with both can't be trusted
    Who are you quoting? Why are you using quotation marks?


  • #105
    Ronald Brave Chip
    Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Ronald Brave Chip


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    Who are you quoting? Why are you using quotation marks?

    I hadn't used them in a while and they were feeling lonely.


    It's the general sentiment I hear: we don't like rich people being rich because they have too much money and power and it's not fair


  • #106
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,568 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    Jester252 wrote: »
    Well this slider is one way to shut up the tax the rich guys. Just look at the % difference of rate of tax between 11,000 and 150,000 and at the end of the day your still the same people using the services.

    Except that middle class people usually pay VHI, GP visits, their own pharmaceuticals, "voluntary" contributions to their children's schools, etc etc.

    I don't have a problem with people who don't pay any income tax getting the same services as people who do, but I have a massive problem with people who don't pay any income tax getting better services than people who do.

    Either everyone gets a medical card, or no one does.

    We can either be high tax high service for all, or low tax low service for all. This high tax low service for some / low tax high service for others is very unfair and is possibly causing significant social damage. Workers get shafted and then when they get home from a long day's work they have to listen to someone complaining that there isn't more free stuff on scratcher.


  • #107
    Friend Computer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 369 ✭✭Friend Computer


    So the solution--as I've heard before--is to remove power from one set of people who are at least some way accountable to the public and basically give it to another who have no accountability.

    Funny how most people are quite happy with this use of such force though, isn't it? I mean you'd think there'd be some kind of uprising if people were really suffering under some tyrannical regime.


  • #108
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    bluewolf wrote: »
    I hadn't used them in a while and they were feeling lonely.

    It's the general sentiment I hear: we don't like rich people being rich because they have too much money and power and it's not fair
    You mean a straw man. Nobody raised this as an issue.

    I must have missed your answer on whether you favour zero redistribution???

    johnnyskeleton wrote: »
    Workers get shafted and then when they get home from a long day's work they have to listen to someone complaining that there isn't more free stuff on scratcher.
    And yet, even those who hate their jobs still go back to work the next morning....


  • #109
    KwackerJack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,123 ✭✭✭KwackerJack


    vitani wrote: »
    Over €450 to debt repayments. Only 35c to libraries, 31c to the Fire Service and 7c to the Secret Service...

    ...we have a Secret Service?

    As far as i know its apart of the Army Ranger wing!

    Now ill have to lock down my house and arm myself :/


  • #110
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,568 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    Friend Computer wrote: »
    So the solution--as I've heard before--is to remove power from one set of people who are at least some way accountable to the public and basically give it to another who have no accountability.

    It's not a question of taking power away from government and giving it to private citizens, it's a question of reducing the amount of power that the government is already taking from private citizens.
    Funny how most people are quite happy with this use of such force though, isn't it? I mean you'd think there'd be some kind of uprising if people were really suffering under some tyrannical regime.

    Can we not peacefully advocate the reduction of government involvement in certain areas of our lives? I don't think we should be without government or that it doesn't have a role to play in many areas. But I do have a problem with the amount of government involvement at the moment.


  • #111
    Ronald Brave Chip
    Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Ronald Brave Chip


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    You mean a straw man. Nobody raised this as an issue.

    I must have missed your answer on whether you favour zero redistribution???

    Raised what as an issue? I made a comment on general sentiments I hear and how I find them bizarre. There's nothing to even straw man there.

    That's right, because I'm still thinking about a reply and how to phrase just how much it creeps me out to hear people proclaiming taking other people's money to do as they see fit with it as the right thing to do. Especially inheritance tax, for example. Hey your family member died, terrible, anyway hand over some of their stuff or I'll put you in jail. Redistribution, great.
    If we want people to run the place for us, they should be making a case for why they need the taxes and why they should go on the things they do - not taking the money and making a mess of it. Hell, make it voluntary.
    And then use it for what they said they would, or they're not getting any more. e.g. "we need that tax for council services. Really. No more services unless you pay" before and "lol nobody was ever going to put that money toward council services" after http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=85678729


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  • #112
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,568 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    And yet, even those who hate their jobs still go back to work the next morning....

    The majority of people want to work, look after their own and pay taxes to support government services like good citizens. Most will not change their work ethic readily. And they, I suppose I, am not looking for handouts or anything, I just don't think it is fair that the more you pay the less you get when it comes to the Irish State.

    The government should reflect the position of the majority of its citizens, having due regard to the basic rights of minority groups.

    There's nothing wrong with keeping working while politically desiring that the tax and benefits system be fairer. Not fair in the Social Justice Ireland sense i.e. "to each according to his needs and who cares where the money comes from", but fair in the sense of if you want something out of the system you have to pay in, and the larger contributors shouldn't be given less than the small or non-contributors.


  • #113
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,568 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    KwackerJack wrote: »
    As far as i know its apart of the Army Ranger wing!

    Now ill have to lock down my house and arm myself :/

    It's G2:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G2_(Republic_of_Ireland)

    Ranger wing is more like the SAS, and G2 is like MI5


  • #114
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    bluewolf wrote: »
    I'm still thinking about a reply and how to phrase just how much it creeps me out to hear people proclaiming taking other people's money to do as they see fit with it as the right thing to do.
    Well maybe you can reflect on that after you decide whether you're in favour of zero redistribution.

    If you're in favour of any redistribution, then you're one of the people proclaiming taking other people's money to do as you see fit as the right thing to do, which so creeps you out, apparently.

    Did it creep you out to attend a public primary school, if you did?

    Did your mother shudder as she delivered you in a public hospital, if she did?

    Do you cringe in shame when you drive on a public road you could never build yourself?
    johnnyskeleton wrote: »
    The majority of people want to work, look after their own and pay taxes to support government services like good citizens.
    That's true to a certain extent; it is also true that it's very rare not to be financially better off working. I suspect if people were better off on welfare, and their prospects were for that situation to persist, many people would be quitting their jobs en masse. That's not happening, or at least, there's no evidence to suggest it happens.
    Most will not change their work ethic readily. And they, I suppose I, am not looking for handouts or anything, I just don't think it is fair that the more you pay the less you get when it comes to the Irish State.
    So you think the system should be the less you pay, the less you get from the state? Don't you think the state should operate as a protective threshold, not as a giant beanstalk?


  • #115
    Ronald Brave Chip
    Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Ronald Brave Chip


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    Well maybe you can reflect on that after you decide whether you're in favour of zero redistribution.

    If you're in favour of any redistribution, then you're one of the people proclaiming taking other people's money to do as you see fit as the right thing to do, which so creeps you out, apparently.

    Did it creep you out to attend a public primary school, if you did?

    Did your mother shudder as she delivered you in a public hospital, if she did?

    Do you cringe in shame when you drive on a public road you could never build yourself?

    Voluntary taxes or donations would handle all that. Privatise them sure, private schools are cheap and better for the poorest citizens in many countries.


  • #116
    shruikan2553
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,113 ✭✭✭shruikan2553


    Yes it is used for wealth distribution but think of 3 types of households, the person who pays nothing in tax, the person who pays the most in tax and the person who is in the middle.

    The household paying nothing gets completely supported by the government, very cheap house, medical card, school books, full grant for college.
    The person in the middle doesnt get a medical card, reduction in rent, may get a partial grant, has to pay for childcare.
    The person earning the highest has to pay everything for college, probably has health insurance, pays childcare, maybe even school fees and has to pay a higher percentage of a portion of wages and what do they get out of this?


  • #117
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    shruikan2553 wrote: »
    The person earning the highest has to pay everything for college, probably has health insurance, pays childcare, maybe even school fees and has to pay a higher percentage of a portion of wages and what do they get out of this?
    This

    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-gtFjlMUTfiQ/TcwKUh4NJCI/AAAAAAAAEjM/zcOQJNWqDNo/s1600/rich%2BVs%2Bpoor.png

    You're falling into the availability heuristic. Just because benefits for the poor are more visible, more salient, doesn't negate the immense benefits that the state creates for the wealthiest, who have most to lose from a breakdown in law, order and infrastructure.


  • #118
    srsly78
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,157 ✭✭✭srsly78


    shruikan2553 wrote: »
    Y
    The person earning the highest has to pay everything for college, probably has health insurance, pays childcare, maybe even school fees and has to pay a higher percentage of a portion of wages and what do they get out of this?

    They get the protection of the states monopoly on violence. Protection against the other 2 people in your example.


  • #119
    token56
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,675 ✭✭✭token56


    Its a relatively small sum but I find it difficult to come to terms with the amount going towards "north-south communications". Just to put it into perspective, its roughly equal to the same amount that goes towards Met Eireann, or 70% the amount towards teacher education, or half the amount towards communications. Now I dont undervalue our role in the north, but what exactly does "north-south communications" money go towards?


  • #120
    Uriel.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,058 ✭✭✭Uriel.


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    This

    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-gtFjlMUTfiQ/TcwKUh4NJCI/AAAAAAAAEjM/zcOQJNWqDNo/s1600/rich%2BVs%2Bpoor.png

    You're falling into the availability heuristic. Just because benefits for the poor are more visible, more salient, doesn't negate the immense benefits that the state creates for the wealthiest, who have most to lose from a breakdown in law, order and infrastructure.

    But also get the smallest democratic say as well.


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  • #121
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    Uriel. wrote: »
    But also get the smallest democratic say as well.
    The rich are the most voiceless?

    Wow. That's a new one.

    This is topical.

    IRS at 100: How Income Taxation Built The Middle Class


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