British to make people work for their dole

matt-dublin

sky news wrote:

Chancellor: 'Jobless Must Work For The Dole'

Chancellor George Osborne is to give details of tough new conditions being attached to unemployment handouts - pledging to end the "something for nothing" culture.
Claimants who go through the coalition's flagship Work Programme but still fail to find a job will be required either to do community work, report to a job centre daily, or undergo intensive treatment to tackle problems such as illiteracy or mental illness.
Those who break the rules of the Help to Work scheme, for example by failing to turn up for duty without a good reason, could lose their benefit for four weeks.
A second offence would see them lose it for three months.
Mr Osborne will announce the US-style initiative, which is due to come into force in April, in his speech to the Tory conference in Manchester today.
He will promise that the Government will not "abandon" the long-term unemployed.
"For the first time, all long-term unemployed people who are capable of work will be required to do something in return for their benefits to help them find work," he will say.
"They will do useful work to put something back into their community making meals for the elderly, clearing up litter, working for a local charity. Others will be made to attend the job centre every working day.
"And for those with underlying problems, like drug addiction and illiteracy, there will be an intensive regime of help.
"No one will be ignored or left without help. But no one will get something for nothing.
"Help to work - and in return work for the dole. Because a fair welfare system is fair to those who need it and fair to those who pay for it too."
Potentially, around 200,000 long-term Jobseeker's Allowance claimants could be eligible for the new initiative.
But ministers believe that the numbers on it will be significantly lower, as many of those working covertly will decide it is no longer worth trying to claim benefits and drop out.
The scheme, devised by Work and Pensions Secretary Iain Duncan Smith, will cost around £300m to implement - with the money likely to be found from departmental underspends.
Sky's chief political correspondent Jon Craig described the new conditions as "a tough crackdown".
He said: "Mr Osborne will say 'work for the dole' will mean having to undertake community work, for example cleaning up litter and cooking meals for old people - doing work that is beneficial for the local community.
"If they refuse to do that, Mr Osborne will say they will have to turn up at job centres every day, not just once a week at present, to continue claiming benefits."
Labour's shadow chief secretary to the Treasury, Rachel Reeves, said: "It's taken three wasted years of rising long-term unemployment and a failed Work Programme to come up with this new scheme.
"But this policy is not as ambitious as Labour's compulsory jobs guarantee, which would ensure there is a paid job for every young person out of work for over 12 months and every adult unemployed for more than two years."
During his set piece speech later, Mr Osborne is not expected to unveil specific action on living standards, despite pressure to respond to Labour leader Ed Miliband's energy price freeze pledge last week.
Instead, the Chancellor will stress the need to stick with the coalition's economic plans, warning that the UK still has not fully recovered from the credit crunch.
:: The Chancellor's speech to the Conservative Party Conference in Manchester will be broadcast live from 11.30am on Sky News.
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I've been saying we should be doing something similar to this for years.

So why haven't we done it? Might actually get some of the long term unemployed who use the system to avoid getting jobs.

matt-dublin

matt-dublin wrote: »

I've been saying we should be doing something similar to this for years.

So why haven't we done it? Might actually get some of the long term unemployed who use the system to avoid getting jobs.

At the very least, it'll stop them doing nixers during the day.

It's as much to do with eliminating the "black economy" as anything else.

godtabh

should be the way its done. A lot of volunteer groups could benefit from this

JONJO THE MISER

What's this got to do with Ireland excalty?

matt-dublin

If it was me personally, I wouldn't mind going out and picking up litter or cleaning graffiti, gardening public areas etc. if I couldn't get a job.

I don't expect to get anything for absolutely nothing and don't feel like I should be entitled to it.

Plus I'd probably go stir crazy doing nothing all day!

matt-dublin

JONJO THE MISER wrote: »

What's this got to do with Ireland excalty?

A similar solution should be introduced here

lahalane

Bollux to that, I want free money and lots of sleep!! :mad:

matt-dublin

lahalane wrote: »

Bollux to that, I want free money and lots of sleep!! :mad:

That's the problem with some people in this country

lahalane

matt-dublin wrote: »

That's the problem with some people in this country

What, making jokes?

Cork selfbuild

matt-dublin wrote: »

I don't expect to get anything for absolutely nothing and don't feel like I should be entitled to it.

That's half the problem is the sense of entitlement attitude of some recipients.

As the saying goes, money doesn't grow on trees, some people think the state is an endless money tree.

JONJO THE MISER

matt-dublin wrote: »

A similar solution should be introduced here

While i agree, i do wonder when you hear that over 80% of young muslims in England in certain areas do not work or want to, will they be under the same rules, or will it be turning a blind eye for not want of hassle by the social welfare inspectors over there.
A good example here would be the t.v license inspectors, i bet you would see very few of them going into hyde road in Limerick or the rougher parts of the cities of the Repulic, i think we call all all answer that when we say they would in there eye do go after the easy prey.

Valmont

It's a good idea in theory but this is the British government we're talking about. It will probably be Hunger Games situation broadcast on the BBC. I think it would be fair to make people work for their dole if the government itself hadn't ruined so many people's chances of getting a real job in the first place.

Cork selfbuild

Cork selfbuild wrote: »

As the saying goes, money doesn't grow on trees, some people think the state is an endless money tree.

The state doesn't but the central bankers can "print it at will" and often do!

rovoagho

Yeah, slave labour rocks. We should put them in some kind of... camps or something at night. We can take them there on trains, and we can have a nice big fire to keep them warm.

Here's an idea if you want to get/keep people working: stop laying your own people off, and start creating jobs that negate the need for voluntary organisations. Bonus: give them standard work contracts and start knocking the jobs for life business on the head.

Rascasse

Absolutely nothing wrong with making the long term unemployed work for welfare benefits. Getting up in the morning and having a work ethic is incredibly powerful in moving people into employment.

The main problem I see with this policy in the UK as it is being reported is that the jobs that have been suggested (clean graffiti, litter picking, working for charities) are also the same types of jobs that are given to those that are sentenced to community service/restorative justice. Yes to welfare-to-work, no to treating them like criminals.

wilser

If we could we get the ex politicians / presidents to work for their €3000 a week pensions then I think this would catch on

Rascasse

Rascasse wrote: »

Yes to welfare-to-work, no to treating them like criminals.

The problem with them doing "useful" work is the fact that they'll often be competing with someone else (who earns a living from it) to do that work

In the US, prisoners are considered a resource and are put to work, the jails actually make money off of this employment.

I suspect that is one of the reasons US judges (possible shareholders in the prison) are so keen on jailing people for crimes that would not jet you jailed anywhere else in the world.

timthumbni

JONJO THE MISER wrote: »

While i agree, i do wonder when you hear that over 80% of young muslims in England in certain areas do not work or want to, will they be under the same rules, or will it be turning a blind eye for not want of hassle by the social welfare inspectors over there.
A good example here would be the t.v license inspectors, i bet you would see very few of them going into hyde road in Limerick or the rougher parts of the cities of the Repulic, i think we call all all answer that when we say they would in there eye do go after the easy prey.

I would say its very different than tv inspectors. They need to gain access to your home etc to catch you in the act. According to the op if you didn't turn up to the job centre every day at least then you would lose benefits. Something has to be done to get away from the benefits culture in the uk. It doesn't make sense that people who are on benefits are often better off than those in paid employment without any excertion or effort.

I think making people turn up to the job centre every day is a good idea. As someone above said it will at least weed out some of those doing the double.

Doubt it will ever come to pass though as labour likely to be next government.

Hersheys

I reckon in theory it's a good idea but very hard to implement in practice. Those who don't want to work won't work and we will see a massive increase of people on disability allowance.

Czarcasm

It wouldn't work over here because one of the conditions of unemployment benefit is that you must be available for work, so technically speaking, you're not allowed do voluntary work until after 5pm!

This is another one of those proposals that'll go nowhere, the same as the UK were looking at cutting people's welfare for their unhealthy lifestyle choices.

Cody Pomeray

Absolutely fine if they're paid the equivalent of minimum wage. What's that about 20 hours? Seems fair.

Job guarantee schemes are not perfect but if they help the community, and provide experience, they're preferable to the current scheme, which still has very low conditionality attached.

To my understanding, you can still remain on welfare for 10...15...20 years, so long as you can show you are looking for work. That, to my mind, is just ridiculous. If someone is seriously long term unemployed, well then for their own sake, and for the community's sake, and for society's sake, someone needs to step in and say 'what's going on here?'

pickarooney

isn't this called job bridge in Ireland?

munchkin_utd

pickarooney wrote: »

isn't this called job bridge in Ireland?

no

thats voluntary and is a scheme to get folks into regular jobs
This would be more like the community employment scheme in ireland, but compulsorary.

PirateShampoo

So the plan is, to take a job from a person who already employed in that sector, put him on the dole, force him to do same said job again for half the wages?

Cody Pomeray

PirateShampoo wrote: »

So the plan is, to take a job from a person who already employed in that sector, put him on the dole, force him to do same said job again for half the wages?

No; the link says they'll be doing community work.

Presumably the stuff that isn't profitable for private enterprise, the link mentions making meals for the elderly, and picking up litter.

Eight Ball

munchkin_utd wrote: »

no

thats voluntary and is a scheme to get folks into regular jobs
This would be more like the community employment scheme in ireland, but compulsorary.

You are very naive if you believe jobbridge is about getting people back to work, it's about lowering the unemployment figures for political means and giving the business establishment free labour for bigger profits. Jobbridge has done huge damage to the jobs market on the whole.

doolox

The dole for a single person in Ireland is €186 which equates to 21.5 hours work at minimum wage of 8,65 per hour.

Most jobbridge schemes require 39 hrs work for the dole + €50 pw. This is equivalent to 27 hrs a week for a single person.

Some married people get extra dole for non-working partners but as far as I know they will work the same hours as the single person on a job-bridge scheme.

In effect the efforts of the single person on such work for welfare schemes is subsidising those with dependents or extra welfare payments such as rent allowance etc. Little or no account is being made in relating hours worked on such schemes to actual money received by the participants.

I am also wary of how quality and safety of such ideas as "meals for the elderly" can be guaranteed if participants are forced onto such schemes. The temptation to cock up things by unwilling and disgruntled participants would be great, requiring a high level of close supervision by better paid staff more loyal to the government but which would seriously undermine the economics of such a move. Also the cleanup schemes would amount to a waste of money if proper professional cleaners were required to monitor and correct the mistakes of the poorly paid inductees.

This is why slave economies collapsed in the first place, the cost of coercion and close supervision needed to operate a slave economy could not compete with a free labour, money based economy.

Annasopra

matt-dublin wrote: »

I've been saying we should be doing something similar to this for years.

So why haven't we done it? Might actually get some of the long term unemployed who use the system to avoid getting jobs.

We do already - its called Tus

Annasopra

munchkin_utd wrote: »

no

thats voluntary and is a scheme to get folks into regular jobs
This would be more like the community employment scheme in ireland, but compulsorary.

Exactly - its called Tus

JP85

The government here wouldnt have the balls to introduce something like this

Sgt. Al Powell

Jeremy Kyle isn't gonna watch itself.

Annasopra

JP85 wrote: »

The government here wouldnt have the balls to introduce something like this

They already did.

Its called Tus

anncoates

This will have a disastrous effect on new alternative music.

Skerries

has anyone heard of Tus

Annasopra

Skerries wrote: »

has anyone heard of Tus

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056728601

ThePieintheSky

You should not be allowed to go on the dole at 18 and stay there the rest of your life without making any effort IMO.


+ those individuals are likely also involved in crime at various stages. I can't imagine people are happy paying for that situation.

matt-dublin

mango salsa wrote: »

They already did.

Its called Tus

ciitizensinformation.ie wrote:

Unemployed people who are eligible for the scheme will be identified and contacted by their social welfare local office and offered the opportunity to participate in the scheme

This can be refused with a decent excuse.: I'm allergic to old people

and obviously its not working because its the first I've ever heard of it.

The councils should be looking to create work that wouldn't normally ever be actioned.

Picking litter off local beaches, cleaning graffiti off walls, spending time with older elderly people (and not robbing them), washing busses etc.

Czarcasm

mango salsa wrote: »

We do already - its called Tus

mango salsa wrote: »

Exactly - its called Tus

mango salsa wrote: »

They already did.

Its called Tus

mango salsa wrote: »

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056728601

TUS schemes are only fudging the unemployment figures. While a person is on a TUS scheme, they are taken off the live register so are not classed as unemployed. Then, when the 12 months is up, they are dumped back on the live register and someone else is taken off it to replace them.

Mince Pie

So how exactly are the same people supposed to look for jobs if they are busy out doing another persons job for nothing?
Ridiculous proposal.

matt-dublin

they're not looking for jobs in the first place, that's the whole point.

Mince Pie

matt-dublin wrote: »

they're not looking for jobs in the first place, that's the whole point.

How do you know?? Of course you must be right cos there is just a plethora of jobs out there for the taking.

Galway K9

If you unemployed for a certain period of time say 3 months. Give 3 months lee way to find a decide on job, find it, etc. Its the longer term "i am entitled crew" and "get money for doing nothing, yay"
Danger is how much work would be expected, could turn into a slave labour thing.

kylith

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

No; the link says they'll be doing community work.

Presumably the stuff that isn't profitable for private enterprise, the link mentions making meals for the elderly, and picking up litter.

So, just taking jobs away from Meals on Wheels workers and council employees then?

Unfortunately all schemes like this do are endanger other people's jobs (why pay a council worker to empty the bins when you can just have someone on the dole do it for, essentially, free?) and leave the unemployed open to exploitative positions that they can't turn down for fear of losing their dole, like that crowd that were bussed in for the Jubilee, I think it was, and had to bed down under bridges in the rain with no proper facilities.

Mince Pie

Galway K9 wrote: »

If you unemployed for a certain period of time say 3 months. Give 3 months lee way to find a decide on job, find it, etc. Its the longer term "i am entitled crew" and "get money for doing nothing, yay"
Danger is how much work would be expected, could turn into a slave labour thing.

Its not that simple, I was unemployed for 6 months, spent all day trawling sites sending off my CV etc. Thankfully I got a job in the end but it was a stoke of luck more than anything else.
Looking for a job is a full time thankless job.

As an aside, if someone is a career benefit taker I agree something should be done but I still don't agree with free labour. It has a knock on effect on an already struggling job market.

Agricola

matt-dublin wrote: »

they're not looking for jobs in the first place, that's the whole point.

Its funny that your location is down as Uranus, cos thats where you do appear to be talking from alright.

Im sure there are people long term unemployed who have no desire to work. That was the case during the boom and it is the case now. But would that be the vast majority? Of course not. We havnt gone from 6% unemployment to 14% over the last few years simply because people have decided to lie around on the dole for the craic.

Would it be possible to have this debate in a mature manner listing the pros and cons of the proposal without resorted to "DEM LADS ON DA DOLE R GETTIN ME TAX MONEY N DEY DONT WANT TO WORK LIKE"?

No, thought not. :rolleyes:

matt-dublin

Mince Pie wrote: »

How do you know?? Of course you must be right cos there is just a plethora of jobs out there for the taking.

They only have to prove they're looking for work, I used to know a lad who knew his local spar manager. He used to go to him every few weeks and get a letter off him saying sorry the role you've applied for has been filled.

its too easy to stay on benefits in the country, not only will community service benefit the government (cheap labour for jobs they wouldn't normally do) it will be mentally good for those who actually can't get a job to get out and do two and a half days work a week. Leaving them two and a half days to job search.

I agree that joblessness is an issue in this country, and there are those who cannot get jobs as well those who will not get jobs. The system as it stands is too easy for people to abuse. Which in my opinion isn't fair on those of us who do work full time and pay our taxes.

Just Sayin Like

SCOOP 64

They use community service for punishment for petty crime in UK as well,
So i cant see why the unemployed cant do it.

SpaceTime

We have similar schemes and the Tories would love to reintroduce workhouses if they could get away with it.

Mince Pie

SCOOP 64 wrote: »

They use community service for punishment for betty crime in UK as well,
So i cant see why the unemployed cant do it.

Oh so being unemployed now is akin to being a petty criminal. Jesus wept!

sok2005

Betty crime! Tee hee hee!

SpaceTime

I think we have a lot of closeted right wing Tories lurking on boards.