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TV License attacks again...

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    #32
    srsly78
    Registered Users Posts: 7,157 ✭✭✭srsly78


    ezra_pound wrote: »
    OAPs do pay prsi.
    revenue website wrote:
    If you are aged 66 or over you are not liable to pay PRSI.

    :confused::confused::confused:


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    #33
    No Pants
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,347 ✭✭✭No Pants


    OU812 wrote: »
    Convicted licence avoiders should have all their TVs confiscated and only returned on production of a licence.

    Waste of money & resources sending them to jail.
    I was talking about this earlier. I wouldn't confiscate them because you then introduce a whole New level of bureaucracy, storage requirements and lost TV claims.

    No TV licence? TV gets smashed.


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    #34
    srsly78
    Registered Users Posts: 7,157 ✭✭✭srsly78


    No Pants wrote: »
    No TV licence? TV gets recycled.

    Fixed your post for the modern world we live in.


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    #35
    paikea
    Registered Users Posts: 83 ✭✭paikea


    Good God! People here talking about smashing TVs, getting elderly to prison because they did not pay some tax or why should elderly be treated different... Have you guys any idea what a dictatorship looks like? I tell you, its bad. I did live under one. If your guys are joking, yeah its funny; if you are not, it's idiotic -- plain idiotic.

    And the reason you don't put people on their situation or age in prison is simply for respect. Respect that one day you will want for yourself. So better start working on it now or you won't get it when is your turn.


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    #36
    markpb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,262 ✭✭✭markpb


    paikea wrote: »
    Good God! People here talking about smashing TVs, getting elderly to prison because they did not pay some tax or why should elderly be treated different... Have you guys any idea what a dictatorship looks like? I tell you, its bad. I did live under one. If your guys are joking, yeah its funny; if you are not, it's idiotic -- plain idiotic.

    And the reason you don't put people on their situation or age in prison is simply for respect. Respect that one day you will want for yourself. So better start working on it now or you won't get it when is your turn.

    So the difference between a dictatorship and a democracy is that a democracy allows old people to ignore the courts? Or do you mean that it's disrespectful to expect old people to obey a court ruling? Is this a black and white thing for you or are there grades of laws you think OAPs should be allowed to break before worrying about little things like the courts.


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    #37
    dukedalton
    Registered Users Posts: 404 ✭✭dukedalton


    paikea wrote: »
    Good God! People here talking about smashing TVs, getting elderly to prison because they did not pay some tax or why should elderly be treated different... Have you guys any idea what a dictatorship looks like? I tell you, its bad. I did live under one. If your guys are joking, yeah its funny; if you are not, it's idiotic -- plain idiotic.

    And the reason you don't put people on their situation or age in prison is simply for respect. Respect that one day you will want for yourself. So better start working on it now or you won't get it when is your turn.

    I'm saying everybody should be treated equally. You seem to be saying that the law should apply differently to different people. Nothing smacks more of dictatorship than inequality.


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    #38
    shedweller
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,029 ✭✭✭shedweller


    markpb wrote: »
    So the difference between a dictatorship and a democracy is that a democracy allows old people to ignore the courts? Or do you mean that it's disrespectful to expect old people to obey a court ruling? Is this a black and white thing for you or are there grades of laws you think OAPs should be allowed to break before worrying about little things like the courts.
    Theres a lot of people that need court rulings in this country. Trouble is a lot of them have the money behind them to avoid said court rulings.
    We should all obey the rules btw. But it galls me when some of us dont have to. This tv license malarkey is a drop in the ocean and is simply distracting us from the eternal debt the banks have transferred onto us. That is the real issue here, not some pathetic non payment of a bullsh1t tv licence.


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    #39
    dukedalton
    Registered Users Posts: 404 ✭✭dukedalton


    shedweller wrote: »
    Theres a lot of people that need court rulings in this country. Trouble is a lot of them have the money behind them to avoid said court rulings.
    We should all obey the rules btw. But it galls me when some of us dont have to. This tv license malarkey is a drop in the ocean and is simply distracting us from the eternal debt the banks have transferred onto us. That is the real issue here, not some pathetic non payment of a bullsh1t tv licence.

    Maybe someday there'll be a thread on boards that doesn't wind up with references to Hitler or The Banks.


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    #40
    shedweller
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,029 ✭✭✭shedweller


    dukedalton wrote: »
    Maybe someday there'll be a thread on boards that doesn't wind up with references to Hitler or The Banks.

    Well, i didn't refer to he who shall not be named but yes i did mention the banks. Distract and defer all you want, the banks made a killing and will continue to make a killing, no matter how hard people try to deflect us from that fact.


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    #41
    dukedalton
    Registered Users Posts: 404 ✭✭dukedalton


    shedweller wrote: »
    Well, i didn't refer to he who shall not be named but yes i did mention the banks. Distract and defer all you want, the banks made a killing and will continue to make a killing, no matter how hard people try to deflect us from that fact.

    The banks are making a killing? Between them AIB and BOI lost almost €6 billion last year.


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    #42
    paikea
    Registered Users Posts: 83 ✭✭paikea


    markpb wrote: »
    So the difference between a dictatorship and a democracy is that a democracy allows old people to ignore the courts? Or do you mean that it's disrespectful to expect old people to obey a court ruling? Is this a black and white thing for you or are there grades of laws you think OAPs should be allowed to break before worrying about little things like the courts.

    I don't agree with having a TV license (or at least how it is used) and I find it far from "important" specially when people are struggling with the current situation. The fact that it is imposed to the point that they would put a couple of elderly people in jail bothers me very much. I find it disrespectful. I am not saying let them break the law. I am saying that there is a mistake here. Be it the law or the tax. I am saying that they should not go to jail as a result of that stupid license.

    The references I am making to dictatorship have to do with the idea of people coming into your house and destroying your stuff to impose a law/tax.


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    #43
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,285 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    If it's disrespectful to go to jail if one breaks a law, we may as well do away with laws altogether.

    Now if someone snatched your smartphone, would you think obeying the law should be optional for them?

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #44
    paikea
    Registered Users Posts: 83 ✭✭paikea


    I will try to reword this again one last time:

    - The fact that a couple of elderly people that is struggling to pay their bills end up in jail because they failed to pay their TV license is an indicator that there is a mistake on the system/process/mechanism/law/tax.

    I actually came here thinking that I would find more people that think like me and that maybe they would give me ideas on how to do something about it. I get myself now wondering if it is a general consent that there is nothing wrong here; that it is just "business as usual" or if I was just unlucky to find a subset of people that just don't see or can't see it for whatever reason...

    Anyway, I am done. This was counter-productive. I don't care if that thread is closed, deleted or whatever. I will no longer follow it.


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    #45
    Scortho
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,876 ✭✭✭Scortho


    Should they have been sent to jail.
    God no.
    It costs the state (insert hard pressed tax payers here) to much.

    Instead for all fines that aren't paid, it should
    A) be deducted at source
    Or
    B) community service at a rate of 1 hour of community service per euro that was failed to pay.

    The fact that needing membership of the psi to work in the future is the only thing that would make me pay a fine.

    At the end if the day most people know if they go to jail for failing to pay a fine, they'll be out after a couple of hours...great deterrent.


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    #46
    zenno
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,377 ✭✭✭zenno


    dukedalton wrote: »
    These being people who in all likelihood have no mortgage to pay and are in receipt of a pension and medical card, free travel and all the rest. I'm in my early 30s and I'm hit for every tax and charge. If these people don't have a TV licence they shouldn't have a TV. Simple.

    Don't be a childish begrudger. These people more than likely contributed to paying taxes all of their working lives and are entitled to grow old and relax in peace without that sh!te.

    Some of the comments on this thread make me want to puke. The situation all in regards to a bloody rte tv license. Politically correct wasters.


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    #47
    mathepac
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,991 ✭✭✭mathepac


    dukedalton wrote: »
    How is OAP a "disgusting ageist term"? Surely it's an objective description? You yourself referred to them as "elderly", is that not an ageist term?!
    Your perspective is interesting but seriously flawed in that it fails to recognise the enormous gap between "OAP" and the term I used, "the elderly / elderly". A tiny bit of research would have expanded your knowledge base and shown you the following:

    The HSE has a big chunk of its web-site dedicated to "Elderly Links". This organisation, chartered by our Minister for Health and Children to cordinate and oversee care for our older citizens, uses the PC, accurate, clinical and sympathetic term "the elderly". It does not use "OAP" or "old age pensioner" in any of its published materials that I have seen. I speak as a former Health Board / HSE employee and contractor who has had clients from time-to-time in residential / out-patient Elderly Care.

    In the voluntary and private sectors, several organisation boast publicly about the excellence of their "elderly care" / "care for the elderly". These organisations include :

    http://www.rhshomeservices.ie/servic...he-elderly.php

    http://www.friendsoftheelderly.ie

    http://www.irishhealth.com/article.html?id=8418

    The term "elderly" appears in healthcare job descriptions and healthcare job ads:

    http://www.irishjobs.ie/Elderly-Care-Jobs

    There are research papers and research initiatives supported by, for example, http://www.ncaop.ie about long-term care of "the elderly", http://www.camphillfoundation.net/projects-/simeon-care-for-the-elderly/ the Camphill Foundation UK & Irl sponsors research into the needs of the "elderly" and I can't seem to recall anyone hurling "aegist" accusations at them for use of the term.

    So there you go. Proof positive that "elderly" or the "the elderly" are not and never have been ageist terms. Apologies expected.


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    #48
    mathepac
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,991 ✭✭✭mathepac


    srsly78 wrote: »
    Here you go: http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/it/leaflets/it45.html
    Try again. That link doesn't shows different tax rates for the elderly. Maybe like other posters here you don't have facts to back up your posts when challenged about their accuracy.

    I also seem to be missing any links in support of those "oap tax credits" mentioned in a previous post.


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    #49
    ezra_pound
    Registered Users Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭ezra_pound


    Scortho wrote: »
    Should they have been sent to jail.
    God no.
    It costs the state (insert hard pressed tax payers here) to much.

    Instead for all fines that aren't paid, it should
    A) be deducted at source
    Or
    B) community service at a rate of 1 hour of community service per euro that was failed to pay.

    The fact that needing membership of the psi to work in the future is the only thing that would make me pay a fine.

    At the end if the day most people know if they go to jail for failing to pay a fine, they'll be out after a couple of hours...great deterrent.

    This exact change is being made by our TD s as we debate this. Look up fines bill 2013.

    Absolutely agree with you by the way.


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    #50
    relax carry on
    Registered Users Posts: 4,074 ✭✭✭relax carry on


    mathepac wrote: »
    Try again. That link doesn't shows different tax rates for the elderly. Maybe like other posters here you don't have facts to back up your posts when challenged about their accuracy.

    I also seem to be missing any links in support of those "oap tax credits" mentioned in a previous post.

    Try it another way (link below). Some of the additional reliefs exemptions for over 65s were contained in the original Revenue link. If you want to query a particular one please post away.

    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/money_and_tax/tax/income_tax_credits_and_reliefs/older_peoples_tax_credits_and_reliefs.html


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    #51
    mathepac
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,991 ✭✭✭mathepac


    relax carry on wrote: »
    Try it another way (link below). Some of the additional reliefs exemptions for over 65s were contained in the original Revenue link. ...
    I am not asking about special reliefs or exemptions or even additional tax credits, all or any of which can vary from job to job or indeed from one person's personal circumstances vs another's.

    This is the relevant portion of the original post:
    hfallada wrote: »
    ... It doesn't make a sense an OAP pays a lower rate of tax than a recent college graduate or a household with young families.
    I'm still waiting to see where on the Revenue site this alleged "lower rate of tax" is detailed.


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    #52
    markpb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,262 ✭✭✭markpb


    mathepac wrote: »
    I'm still waiting to see where on the Revenue site this alleged "lower rate of tax" is detailed.

    Apart from being deliberately obtuse, it's hardly relevant, is it?


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    #53
    Red Nissan
    Registered Users Posts: 3,055 ✭✭✭Red Nissan


    johnnyskeleton wrote: »
    Sigh. Without even reading the article, they were not jailed for not paying their TV licence. They were jailed because they failed or refused to pay the fine, akin to contempt of court.

    That's the way it's done, the majority if people jailed over the TV license do so because for whatever reason they fail to pay the court fine.


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    #54
    srsly78
    Registered Users Posts: 7,157 ✭✭✭srsly78


    mathepac wrote: »
    I am not asking about special reliefs or exemptions or even additional tax credits, all or any of which can vary from job to job or indeed from one person's personal circumstances vs another's.

    This is the relevant portion of the original post:

    I'm still waiting to see where on the Revenue site this alleged "lower rate of tax" is detailed.

    Our systems works via tax reliefs, not via different income tax rates. If you get more tax relief then you effectively pay a lower rate.

    For PRSI there are however different rates, a big fat zero for over 65s.


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    #55
    No Pants
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,347 ✭✭✭No Pants


    paikea wrote: »
    And the reason you don't put people on their situation or age in prison is simply for respect. Respect that one day you will want for yourself. So better start working on it now or you won't get it when is your turn.
    You're dead right. Can you please tell me the age threshold for when the law can be ignored? I'm 38 now and I'd like to start planning for my outlaw future.


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    #56
    Maura74
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 559 ✭✭✭Maura74


    If the couple worked all their lives then they would have paid prsi if that is equivalent to N.I in UK they are do not have to pay it when pass retirement age.
    If the couple worked all their lives then they would not have paid prsi if that is equivalent to N.I in UK. In UK they do not have to to pay that either when pass retirement age. Tax is payable just like everyone else if go over the personal allowance.

    Most elderly people would like to work as they got pride and were not brought up to sponge on benefits. There was not benefit when I was young in Ireland also eldery people would welcome the opportunity to work in charity shops as this would keep them in contact with what is going on in the world and that is good. Also it is a purpose for them to get up in the morning time and give them a bit of independence. I am sure in prison they will be entertainment there for them ie TV and opportunities to take part in activities as I think it is mandatory for prisoners to exercise that is really good.
    But we do not know the health of the couple they could have mental problems or other age related medical conditions. It happens to all of us and especially older people when they have passed retirement age and doing manual work, but of course it will not affect the very rich as they will be cushioned against poverty.


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    #57
    skafish
    Registered Users Posts: 392 ✭✭skafish


    paikea wrote: »

    And the reason you don't put people on their situation or age in prison is simply for respect. Respect that one day you will want for yourself. So better start working on it now or you won't get it when is your turn.

    Just like the respect they showed to the law of the land and the courts they were jailed for being in contempt of?


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    #58
    Galwayguy35
    Registered Users Posts: 16,392 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    zenno wrote: »
    Don't be a childish begrudger. These people more than likely contributed to paying taxes all of their working lives and are entitled to grow old and relax in peace without that sh!te.

    Some of the comments on this thread make me want to puke. The situation all in regards to a bloody rte tv license. Politically correct wasters.

    So?

    All of us here will have also paid taxes as well during our working life and when we retire in the next 20-30 years will still have to pay our bills.

    Nobody likes doing it but if something has to be paid then it must be done.


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    #59
    mathepac
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,991 ✭✭✭mathepac


    markpb wrote: »
    Apart from being deliberately obtuse, it's hardly relevant, is it?
    So it seems it's acceptable to make wildly inaccurate statements about taxing older citizens income, challenging posters to substantiate these inaccuracies is now "being deliberately obtuse". Following on from that logical leap all inaccurate post must now remain unchallenged.
    srsly78 wrote: »
    ... If you get more tax relief then you effectively pay a lower rate....
    No you don't. You pay at one of the standard rates on a different proportion of your income. So there is no such thing as a different tax rate for older people as the original post alleges.
    srsly78 wrote: »
    ... For PRSI there are however different rates, a big fat zero for over 65s.
    I didn't ask as PRSI is not tax.


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    #60
    AlmightyCushion
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 35,060 Mod ✭✭✭✭AlmightyCushion


    mathepac wrote: »
    So it seems it's acceptable to make wildly inaccurate statements about taxing older citizens income, challenging posters to substantiate these inaccuracies is now "being deliberately obtuse". Following on from that logical leap all inaccurate post must now remain unchallenged.
    No you don't. You pay at one of the standard rates on a different proportion of your income. So there is no such thing as a different tax rate for older people as the original post alleges.

    The marginal tax rates are the same but the effective tax rate will be different. Given that the guy who originally posted it specifically mentions OAP tax credits and their PRSI rate, it's pretty obvious that he is talking about the effective rate.

    As said above, it looks like you are being deliberately obtuse.


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    #61
    Agonist
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,329 ✭✭✭Agonist


    Putting taxes to one side, if this couple is between 66 and 70 they are eligible for a free TV license unless they fail to satisfy a means test. So they are either younger than that or well able to spare a couple of Euro a week.

    http://m.cinfo.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/extra_social_welfare_benefits/household_benefits_package.html


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