TV License attacks again...

paikea

News on the Irish Independent today: Retired couple with health problems taken to prison over non-payment of TV licence

What is going on? Have we lost our respect for people completely now? I am not going to go into the subject of whether or not that stupid tax is necessary or not or even about the fact that it was around 40 pounds not long ago and now its 160... But putting a couple of retired people on jail for not paying the tax is way beyond my tolerance. It is abusive. :mad::mad::mad:

View

paikea wrote: »

News on the Irish Independent today: Retired couple with health problems taken to prison over non-payment of TV licence

Did their health problems prevent the retired couple from either getting rid of their TV or popping into their post office to get a TV license?

dukedalton

These being people who in all likelihood have no mortgage to pay and are in receipt of a pension and medical card, free travel and all the rest. I'm in my early 30s and I'm hit for every tax and charge. If these people don't have a TV licence they shouldn't have a TV. Simple.

Galwayguy35

Getting old doesn't mean that people get to stop paying bills and obeying the law.

johnnyskeleton

paikea wrote: »

News on the Irish Independent today: Retired couple with health problems taken to prison over non-payment of TV licence

What is going on? Have we lost our respect for people completely now? I am not going to go into the subject of whether or not that stupid tax is necessary or not or even about the fact that it was around 40 pounds not long ago and now its 160... But putting a couple of retired people on jail for not paying the tax is way beyond my tolerance. It is abusive. :mad::mad::mad:

Sigh. Without even reading the article, they were not jailed for not paying their TV licence. They were jailed because they failed or refused to pay the fine, akin to contempt of court.

Not paying your tv licence is not a serious offence and doesn't deserve jail. But thinking that you can ignore a lawful decision of the courts because you don't agree with the law is.

If putting them in jail for a few days teaches them to respect the courts, then it's worth doing IMO

Umekichi

We are on a very tight budget and manage to pay our tv licence, in fact my nan is in her 70's has health problems and can afford her licence.
You don't even have to pay it all in one go, we are nearly complete our book of stamps(2 more to go) as we buy 2 - 3 depending on how we are that week.

It's not that hard to pay.

Manach

Well at least there is likely free TV in Jail.

Saying that, if the law is designed to prop up a bulwark of the social establishment, reform of it being keep in check by entrenched media interests and with barely anyone outside the legal circles being able to track current laws - never mind been in any way able to influence them in a meaningful way then a blithe obey the law statement is as devoid of content as of meaning.

jetfiremuck

Its a common ruse to get people to pay up.....stick it to the elderly.....thought it was free to them.

mcmoustache

Is it not an open secret anyway that they will be let go in under two hours?

spank_inferno

There is already a thread on this poorly written story in After Hours.

Rightwing

spank_inferno wrote: »

There is already a thread on this poorly written story in After Hours.

Indeed, what this rubbish has got to do with the economy is beyond me.

Busted Flat.

jetfiremuck wrote: »

Its a common ruse to get people to pay up.....stick it to the elderly.....thought it was free to them.

It is means tested, they must have been above the level.

mathepac

dukedalton wrote: »

These being people who in all likelihood have no mortgage to pay and are in receipt of a pension and medical card, free travel and all the rest. I'm in my early 30s and I'm hit for every tax and charge. If these people don't have a TV licence they shouldn't have a TV. Simple.

That being the case they'd also be entitled to a free TV licence, but of course thinking the situation through logically before posting your outrage would take effort.

Why not find a suitable target for your ire? If they are mortgage-free, fair play to them, they paid it off. If they have pensions, they worked for the entitlement as no doubt they did for any other benefits they have, by contributing to the State during their working lives.

I dislike your bullying self-righteous tone adopted against an elderly couple for the wrong reasons. They have refused to pay a fine and they are being charged with being jailed for contempt of a court order, not because they don't have a licence.

mathepac

Umekichi wrote: »

... in fact my nan is in her 70's has health problems and can afford her licence ...

Fair play to her but if she's living alone she should be entitled to a free TV licence as well as the other benefits (winter fuel allowance, subsidised ESB, travel pass, medical card, etc.)

Umekichi

mathepac wrote: »

Fair play to her but if she's living alone she should be entitled to a free TV licence as well as the other benefits (winter fuel allowance, subsidised ESB, travel pass, medical card, etc.)

I'll have a chat to her the next time I see her and see if she is getting all of her entitlements, AFAIK she is still paying her licence.
If it's a case of she isn't getting her entitlements then I'll help her get sorted.

hfallada

Since when is a person age a good reason for tax evasion? What they did was illegal and I imagine due to prison over crowding they will spend about 30 mins at most in jail.

OAPs have a lot of tax credits that young people don't have. They pay no prsi, they have oap tax credits. The tax system is too progessive for older people. It doesn't make a sense an OAP pays a lower rate of tax than a recent college graduate or a household with young families.

dukedalton

mathepac wrote: »

That being the case they'd also be entitled to a free TV licence, but of course thinking the situation through logically before posting your outrage would take effort.

Why not find a suitable target for your ire? If they are mortgage-free, fair play to them, they paid it off. If they have pensions, they worked for the entitlement as no doubt they did for any other benefits they have, by contributing to the State during their working lives.

I dislike your bullying self-righteous tone adopted against an elderly couple for the wrong reasons. They have refused to pay a fine and they are being charged with being jailed for contempt of a court order, not because they don't have a licence.

If they don't have a TV licence, they shouldn't have a TV. And, elderly or not, should be subject to the law of the land.

What part of that do you have difficulty with?

dukedalton

I find it funny that people seem to think that being elderly is literally a "get out of jail free" card. Despite all the taxes and charges I have to pay, I'm sure I wouldn't get much sympathy or press coverage if I started to pick and choose what laws I would/wouldn't follow.

shedweller

Funny how "the law of the land" gets thrown about when we're talking about a few euro. Throw in six or seven zeroes and the law of the land is conveniently forgotten...

mathepac

hfallada wrote: »

Since when is a person age a good reason for tax evasion? ...

Tax evasion? You seem to be on a different page to other posters

hfallada wrote: »

... OAPs have a lot of tax credits that young people don't have. ...

I object strongly to your use of the term OAP. It gives your post a strongly ageist slant IMHO and might lead people to conclude you were posting from an ageist perspective.

Maybe you could give us a few examples of these "tax credits" from the Revenue web-site

hfallada wrote: »

... They pay no prsi, they have oap tax credits. ...

Whether they pay PRSI, USC or other deductions is dependent on the amount of their income, which you can't possibly know. Again maybe you could give us a few examples of these "oap tax credits" as your repulsively ageist language terms them.

hfallada wrote: »

... It doesn't make a sense an OAP pays a lower rate of tax than a recent college graduate or a household with young families.

Whatever tax they pay is dependent on the amount of their income, which you can't possibly know. Maybe you could show us from the Revenue web-site where an "OAP", to use your own disgusting ageist term, pays a different rate of tax to other citizens.

dukedalton

mathepac wrote: »

Tax evasion? You seem to be on a different page to other posters
I object strongly to your use of the term OAP. It gives your post a strongly ageist slant IMHO and might lead people to conclude you were posting from an ageist perspective.

Maybe you could give us a few examples of these "tax credits" from the Revenue web-site
Whether they pay PRSI, USC or other deductions is dependent on the amount of their income, which you can't possibly know. Again maybe you could give us a few examples of these "oap tax credits" as your repulsively ageist language terms them.
Whatever tax they pay is dependent on the amount of their income, which you can't possibly know. Maybe you could show us from the Revenue web-site where an "OAP", to use your own disgusting ageist term, pays a different rate of tax to other citizens.

How is OAP a "disgusting ageist term"? Surely it's an objective description? You yourself referred to them as "elderly", is that not an ageist term?!

ezra_pound

Guys. In fairness if you break the law, get fined in court and fail to pay that fine then the only recourse the state has its to lock them up.

ezra_pound

Very suspect that they never knew about fine until ' a month ago'. If bothered to turn up to court would not have received 1200 fine! Sounds like they just ignored the state. Poor show not showing up in court.

seanie_c

Probably a sign in/sign out job.

Guy in my neighbourhood joked about a fine he refused to pay, wasn't that small but I won't say how much exactly.

Taxi took him to jail, dropped him off. He was sent to his cell where he got dinner. Slept that night. Next day he got breakfast and jail sent him home in a taxi.

He was laughing when he got back. The taxis alone with dinner/breakfast probably added up to the same amount as the fine.

A Taxi driver told me about this fella he dropped off at the jail and no sooner had driver turned around to journey back, fella was walking out the door with money to get a bus home.

Going Forward

dukedalton wrote: »

How is OAP a "disgusting ageist term"? Surely it's an objective description? You yourself referred to them as "elderly", is that not an ageist term?!

Abhorrent. The buzz word at the mo is "seniors".

srsly78

mathepac wrote: »

Maybe you could show us from the Revenue web-site where an "OAP", to use your own disgusting ageist term, pays a different rate of tax to other citizens.

Here you go: http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/it/leaflets/it45.html

Bog Standard User

the problem i have with this is the incarceration & "free legal aid+ judicial system fees" costs alot more to the tax payer than the bloody license fee is worth

OU812

Convicted licence avoiders should have all their TVs confiscated and only returned on production of a licence.

Waste of money & resources sending them to jail.

Maura74

seanie_c wrote: »

Probably a sign in/sign out job.

Guy in my neighbourhood joked about a fine he refused to pay, wasn't that small but I won't say how much exactly.

Taxi took him to jail, dropped him off. He was sent to his cell where he got dinner. Slept that night. Next day he got breakfast and jail sent him home in a taxi.

He was laughing when he got back. The taxis alone with dinner/breakfast probably added up to the same amount as the fine.

A Taxi driver told me about this fella he dropped off at the jail and no sooner had driver turned around to journey back, fella was walking out the door with money to get a bus home.

Well, s/he is far better off in jail than any care home that abuse their resident and the tax payer will have to substitute his/her pensions and when all the money has gone the tax payer will have to pay for all of it and it is not cheap, the greedy care home owners will want ever last penny from the unfortunately people in their clutches their premises this normally happens when the person is there and no loves to look out for them in these home. In care home there is no outside space for 60 or 70 residents that they lump together to do that simple pleasure in life like being able to go outside for a walk etc. S/he is far better off in prison, no abuse in there and will get look after as well.
Since the recent scandals in the BBC organisation with the top executives abuses pulse getting very large salaries. I have stopped paying for licenses as I am the internet for catch up programs, this save money and also leaves the day free to things like trying to keep fit like going for walks etc. I cannot understand TV licenses been still in existence, the airwave should be free for everyone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC_sexual_abuse_cases

tayto lover

hfallada wrote: »

Since when is a person age a good reason for tax evasion? What they did was illegal and I imagine due to prison over crowding they will spend about 30 mins at most in jail.

OAPs have a lot of tax credits that young people don't have. They pay no prsi, they have oap tax credits. The tax system is too progessive for older people. It doesn't make a sense an OAP pays a lower rate of tax than a recent college graduate or a household with young families.

Don't worry lad. Don't get downhearted.
You will get old soon enough.

ezra_pound

OAPs do pay prsi.

srsly78

ezra_pound wrote: »

OAPs do pay prsi.

revenue website wrote:

If you are aged 66 or over you are not liable to pay PRSI.

No Pants

OU812 wrote: »

Convicted licence avoiders should have all their TVs confiscated and only returned on production of a licence.

Waste of money & resources sending them to jail.

I was talking about this earlier. I wouldn't confiscate them because you then introduce a whole New level of bureaucracy, storage requirements and lost TV claims.

No TV licence? TV gets smashed.

srsly78

No Pants wrote: »

No TV licence? TV gets recycled.

Fixed your post for the modern world we live in.

paikea

Good God! People here talking about smashing TVs, getting elderly to prison because they did not pay some tax or why should elderly be treated different... Have you guys any idea what a dictatorship looks like? I tell you, its bad. I did live under one. If your guys are joking, yeah its funny; if you are not, it's idiotic -- plain idiotic.

And the reason you don't put people on their situation or age in prison is simply for respect. Respect that one day you will want for yourself. So better start working on it now or you won't get it when is your turn.

markpb

paikea wrote: »

Good God! People here talking about smashing TVs, getting elderly to prison because they did not pay some tax or why should elderly be treated different... Have you guys any idea what a dictatorship looks like? I tell you, its bad. I did live under one. If your guys are joking, yeah its funny; if you are not, it's idiotic -- plain idiotic.

And the reason you don't put people on their situation or age in prison is simply for respect. Respect that one day you will want for yourself. So better start working on it now or you won't get it when is your turn.

So the difference between a dictatorship and a democracy is that a democracy allows old people to ignore the courts? Or do you mean that it's disrespectful to expect old people to obey a court ruling? Is this a black and white thing for you or are there grades of laws you think OAPs should be allowed to break before worrying about little things like the courts.

dukedalton

paikea wrote: »

Good God! People here talking about smashing TVs, getting elderly to prison because they did not pay some tax or why should elderly be treated different... Have you guys any idea what a dictatorship looks like? I tell you, its bad. I did live under one. If your guys are joking, yeah its funny; if you are not, it's idiotic -- plain idiotic.

And the reason you don't put people on their situation or age in prison is simply for respect. Respect that one day you will want for yourself. So better start working on it now or you won't get it when is your turn.

I'm saying everybody should be treated equally. You seem to be saying that the law should apply differently to different people. Nothing smacks more of dictatorship than inequality.

shedweller

markpb wrote: »

So the difference between a dictatorship and a democracy is that a democracy allows old people to ignore the courts? Or do you mean that it's disrespectful to expect old people to obey a court ruling? Is this a black and white thing for you or are there grades of laws you think OAPs should be allowed to break before worrying about little things like the courts.

Theres a lot of people that need court rulings in this country. Trouble is a lot of them have the money behind them to avoid said court rulings.
We should all obey the rules btw. But it galls me when some of us dont have to. This tv license malarkey is a drop in the ocean and is simply distracting us from the eternal debt the banks have transferred onto us. That is the real issue here, not some pathetic non payment of a bullsh1t tv licence.

dukedalton

shedweller wrote: »

Theres a lot of people that need court rulings in this country. Trouble is a lot of them have the money behind them to avoid said court rulings.
We should all obey the rules btw. But it galls me when some of us dont have to. This tv license malarkey is a drop in the ocean and is simply distracting us from the eternal debt the banks have transferred onto us. That is the real issue here, not some pathetic non payment of a bullsh1t tv licence.

Maybe someday there'll be a thread on boards that doesn't wind up with references to Hitler or The Banks.

shedweller

dukedalton wrote: »

Maybe someday there'll be a thread on boards that doesn't wind up with references to Hitler or The Banks.

Well, i didn't refer to he who shall not be named but yes i did mention the banks. Distract and defer all you want, the banks made a killing and will continue to make a killing, no matter how hard people try to deflect us from that fact.

dukedalton

shedweller wrote: »

Well, i didn't refer to he who shall not be named but yes i did mention the banks. Distract and defer all you want, the banks made a killing and will continue to make a killing, no matter how hard people try to deflect us from that fact.

The banks are making a killing? Between them AIB and BOI lost almost €6 billion last year.

paikea

markpb wrote: »

So the difference between a dictatorship and a democracy is that a democracy allows old people to ignore the courts? Or do you mean that it's disrespectful to expect old people to obey a court ruling? Is this a black and white thing for you or are there grades of laws you think OAPs should be allowed to break before worrying about little things like the courts.

I don't agree with having a TV license (or at least how it is used) and I find it far from "important" specially when people are struggling with the current situation. The fact that it is imposed to the point that they would put a couple of elderly people in jail bothers me very much. I find it disrespectful. I am not saying let them break the law. I am saying that there is a mistake here. Be it the law or the tax. I am saying that they should not go to jail as a result of that stupid license.

The references I am making to dictatorship have to do with the idea of people coming into your house and destroying your stuff to impose a law/tax.

Hotblack Desiato

If it's disrespectful to go to jail if one breaks a law, we may as well do away with laws altogether.

Now if someone snatched your smartphone, would you think obeying the law should be optional for them?

paikea

I will try to reword this again one last time:

- The fact that a couple of elderly people that is struggling to pay their bills end up in jail because they failed to pay their TV license is an indicator that there is a mistake on the system/process/mechanism/law/tax.

I actually came here thinking that I would find more people that think like me and that maybe they would give me ideas on how to do something about it. I get myself now wondering if it is a general consent that there is nothing wrong here; that it is just "business as usual" or if I was just unlucky to find a subset of people that just don't see or can't see it for whatever reason...

Anyway, I am done. This was counter-productive. I don't care if that thread is closed, deleted or whatever. I will no longer follow it.

Scortho

Should they have been sent to jail.
God no.
It costs the state (insert hard pressed tax payers here) to much.

Instead for all fines that aren't paid, it should
A) be deducted at source
Or
community service at a rate of 1 hour of community service per euro that was failed to pay.

The fact that needing membership of the psi to work in the future is the only thing that would make me pay a fine.

At the end if the day most people know if they go to jail for failing to pay a fine, they'll be out after a couple of hours...great deterrent.

zenno

dukedalton wrote: »

These being people who in all likelihood have no mortgage to pay and are in receipt of a pension and medical card, free travel and all the rest. I'm in my early 30s and I'm hit for every tax and charge. If these people don't have a TV licence they shouldn't have a TV. Simple.

Don't be a childish begrudger. These people more than likely contributed to paying taxes all of their working lives and are entitled to grow old and relax in peace without that sh!te.

Some of the comments on this thread make me want to puke. The situation all in regards to a bloody rte tv license. Politically correct wasters.

mathepac

dukedalton wrote: »

How is OAP a "disgusting ageist term"? Surely it's an objective description? You yourself referred to them as "elderly", is that not an ageist term?!

Your perspective is interesting but seriously flawed in that it fails to recognise the enormous gap between "OAP" and the term I used, "the elderly / elderly". A tiny bit of research would have expanded your knowledge base and shown you the following:

The HSE has a big chunk of its web-site dedicated to "Elderly Links". This organisation, chartered by our Minister for Health and Children to cordinate and oversee care for our older citizens, uses the PC, accurate, clinical and sympathetic term "the elderly". It does not use "OAP" or "old age pensioner" in any of its published materials that I have seen. I speak as a former Health Board / HSE employee and contractor who has had clients from time-to-time in residential / out-patient Elderly Care.

In the voluntary and private sectors, several organisation boast publicly about the excellence of their "elderly care" / "care for the elderly". These organisations include :

http://www.rhshomeservices.ie/servic...he-elderly.php

http://www.friendsoftheelderly.ie

http://www.irishhealth.com/article.html?id=8418

The term "elderly" appears in healthcare job descriptions and healthcare job ads:

http://www.irishjobs.ie/Elderly-Care-Jobs

There are research papers and research initiatives supported by, for example, http://www.ncaop.ie about long-term care of "the elderly", http://www.camphillfoundation.net/projects-/simeon-care-for-the-elderly/ the Camphill Foundation UK & Irl sponsors research into the needs of the "elderly" and I can't seem to recall anyone hurling "aegist" accusations at them for use of the term.

So there you go. Proof positive that "elderly" or the "the elderly" are not and never have been ageist terms. Apologies expected.

mathepac

srsly78 wrote: »

Here you go: http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/it/leaflets/it45.html

Try again. That link doesn't shows different tax rates for the elderly. Maybe like other posters here you don't have facts to back up your posts when challenged about their accuracy.

I also seem to be missing any links in support of those "oap tax credits" mentioned in a previous post.

ezra_pound

Scortho wrote: »

Should they have been sent to jail.
God no.
It costs the state (insert hard pressed tax payers here) to much.

Instead for all fines that aren't paid, it should
A) be deducted at source
Or
community service at a rate of 1 hour of community service per euro that was failed to pay.

The fact that needing membership of the psi to work in the future is the only thing that would make me pay a fine.

At the end if the day most people know if they go to jail for failing to pay a fine, they'll be out after a couple of hours...great deterrent.

This exact change is being made by our TD s as we debate this. Look up fines bill 2013.

Absolutely agree with you by the way.

relax carry on

mathepac wrote: »

Try again. That link doesn't shows different tax rates for the elderly. Maybe like other posters here you don't have facts to back up your posts when challenged about their accuracy.

I also seem to be missing any links in support of those "oap tax credits" mentioned in a previous post.

Try it another way (link below). Some of the additional reliefs exemptions for over 65s were contained in the original Revenue link. If you want to query a particular one please post away.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/money_and_tax/tax/income_tax_credits_and_reliefs/older_peoples_tax_credits_and_reliefs.html

mathepac

relax carry on wrote: »

Try it another way (link below). Some of the additional reliefs exemptions for over 65s were contained in the original Revenue link. ...

I am not asking about special reliefs or exemptions or even additional tax credits, all or any of which can vary from job to job or indeed from one person's personal circumstances vs another's.

This is the relevant portion of the original post:

hfallada wrote: »

... It doesn't make a sense an OAP pays a lower rate of tax than a recent college graduate or a household with young families.

I'm still waiting to see where on the Revenue site this alleged "lower rate of tax" is detailed.