Credit Card Refused

SpaceTime

That's precisely why people continue to use cash in very large volumes in Ireland though.

In countries with more competitive retail banking markets, the costs are much lower or you've fee-free banking.

I wouldn't even mind paying the bank say a tenner per quarter or something for unlimited debit transactions but the per transaction fees make it worse than an old Telecom Eireann land line!

ScouseMouse

foggy_lad wrote: »

The small shopkeepers are the whole time penalising their loyal customer because they get shafted by credit card companies or mobile companies or the banks fees when we pay in cash etc etc............ENOUGH! stop trying to pass on the cost of running a business to the customer! Having a shop it is accepted that you sell phone top ups and take credit and debit cards. If ye have a problem with the costs then ye are in the wrong business and should close up shop.

Penalising people?

What a stupid comment. A shop is a business, its not a charity.

Just in case you dont realise it, ALL charges get passed onto the customers. The shop buys something, it costs something. Then the other associated costs are added. Then a profit margin (god forbid the shop is a commercial entity that is trying to make money - the DISGRACE in that), then they sell it on to the customer.

You would do well to remember that instead of silly comments like you put above

x43r0

I bought some milk on the way home from work yesterday evening for 89p and paid by contactless credit card chip on the back of my phone


One of the things I hate when visiting home is carrying cash with me all the time

foggy_lad

superscouse wrote: »

Penalising people?

What a stupid comment. A shop is a business, its not a charity.

Just in case you dont realise it, ALL charges get passed onto the customers. The shop buys something, it costs something. Then the other associated costs are added. Then a profit margin (god forbid the shop is a commercial entity that is trying to make money - the DISGRACE in that), then they sell it on to the customer.

You would do well to remember that instead of silly comments like you put above

We as customers are expected to pay extra to use a card or to buy credit and then you want us to pay your banking charges as well! Enough already!

Corkbah

x43r0 wrote: »

I bought some milk on the way home from work yesterday evening for 89p and paid by contactless credit card chip on the back of my phone


One of the things I hate when visiting home is carrying cash with me all the time

but even if you went to the atm or actual bank counter to take out money - you'd be charged.

SpaceTime

x43r0 wrote: »

I bought some milk on the way home from work yesterday evening for 89p and paid by contactless credit card chip on the back of my phone


One of the things I hate when visiting home is carrying cash with me all the time

Pretty much all recently issued Irish debit cards are contactless too and a few places do use them:

McDonald’s, Insomnia, Arnotts, Boots, Centra, Marks and Spencer, Spar, Eurospar and Mace.

The problem is that, depending on your bank, you could be paying an extra 20cent for that 'pay by bonk' transaction so, a lot of people don't bother.

Corkbah wrote: »

but even if you went to the atm or actual bank counter to take out money - you'd be charged.

You won't be charged 20 cent for spending 89cent though. You might get charged 20 cent to withdraw €200 which is a lot better value.

I mean, if you added 20 cent to every small transaction you made here and there, you'd be donating vast amounts of money to the banks.

For small transactions its extremely bad value.

x43r0

Corkbah wrote: »

but even if you went to the atm or actual bank counter to take out money - you'd be charged.

You mean withdraw cash with a CC? That's just asking for death by charges!


I rarely carry more than a fiver on me most of the time anyway

emeldc

Just to confirm the charges, I have a terminal here and had a look at my statement.

Terminal rental - €17.70 + vat PM. ( Thats quite cheap actually)
Master card credit personal 2.38% per transaction
Visa Credit Personal 2.38% PT
Visa Debit .25c PT
Mastercard Debit .25c PT
Visa Business 2.98% PT
Visa Debit Com intl 2.98% PT
Laser .20c PT

Minimum transaction charge regardless of number of transactions is €30.

These figures are typical of a small business but will vary depending who the supplier of the terminal is and the size of turnover etc.

Guy:Incognito

foggy_lad wrote: »

We as customers are expected to pay extra to use a card or to buy credit and then you want us to pay your banking charges as well! Enough already!

The customer pays all the costs associated with running a shop. That's the point. The shops only income is from customers. Every cost added together + profit = price of the item.

SpaceTime

The other aspect of this is that the large volume of cash in circulation is causing all these cash-in-transit and shop raids.

We should have cost-effective debit cards and we should also have the option of pre-loading contactless cards or chip & pin as if they were cash.

The technology's there (literally already installed in most places). The banks just don't want to do it and the market's not being opened to other operators in a sufficient way.

The banks also don't seem to comprehend that there's a cost involved in handling cash. All that extra security is not free and there are losses in terms of cash raids, theft in shops by staff and all the manual handling that has to be done to count it, bundle it, etc etc

On top of that, just think of the costs for society at large of not doing this : Increased crime, people's lives put at risk protecting cash, people unnecessarily caught up in raids on garages, shops etc, Gardai put at risk and occupied solving crimes that shouldn't have happened in the first place.

I mean, even look at something simple like Pay-at-Pump petrol stations. These have been common elsewhere for many years and are only starting to appear in Ireland now?!

I can't see any reason why petrol stations (which are often targeted by criminals at night) don't simply move to cards-only policies after 11pm or whatever.

foggy_lad wrote: »

We as customers are expected to pay extra to use a card or to buy credit and then you want us to pay your banking charges as well! Enough already!

I'd rather the shop gave me a choice of paying with an alternative method rather than passing the charge on by increasing the price of every item. At least that gives the customers a choice in the matter!

As pointed out by a previous poster, you're paying for all the overheads anyway. They're shops, they're not state services.

The shopkeeper is just taking a decision that they're going to pass the transaction cost onto people who CHOOSE to use that mode of payment rather than everyone who walks into the shop.
That allows them to keep their prices lower and their overheads down.

Other than legal tender (i.e. Euro cash) the shop has absolutely no obligation to accept private payment systems like cards, cheques, travellers' cheques, vouchers etc.

Even with cash, they don't have to sell you the item at all if they don't feel like it. Legal tender only has to be accepted where a debt is owed.

ScouseMouse

SpaceTime wrote: »

The other aspect of this is that the large volume of cash in circulation is causing all these cash-in-transit and shop raids.

We should have cost-effective debit cards and we should also have the option of pre-loading contactless cards or chip & pin as if they were cash.

The technology's there (literally already installed in most places). The banks just don't want to do it and the market's not being opened to other operators in a sufficient way.

The banks also don't seem to comprehend that there's a cost involved in handling cash. All that extra security is not free and there are losses in terms of cash raids, theft in shops by staff and all the manual handling that has to be done to count it, bundle it, etc etc

On top of that, just think of the costs for society at large of not doing this : Increased crime, people's lives put at risk protecting cash, people unnecessarily caught up in raids on garages, shops etc, Gardai put at risk and occupied solving crimes that shouldn't have happened in the first place.

I mean, even look at something simple like Pay-at-Pump petrol stations. These have been common elsewhere for many years and are only starting to appear in Ireland now?!

I can't see any reason why petrol stations (which are often targeted by criminals at night) don't simply move to cards-only policies after 11pm or whatever.



I'd rather the shop gave me a choice of paying with an alternative method rather than passing the charge on by increasing the price of every item. At least that gives the customers a choice in the matter!

As pointed out by a previous poster, you're paying for all the overheads anyway. They're shops, they're not state services.

The shopkeeper is just taking a decision that they're going to pass the transaction cost onto people who CHOOSE to use that mode of payment rather than everyone who walks into the shop.
That allows them to keep their prices lower and their overheads down.

Other than legal tender (i.e. Euro cash) the shop has absolutely no obligation to accept private payment systems like cards, cheques, travellers' cheques, vouchers etc.

Even with cash, they don't have to sell you the item at all if they don't feel like it. Legal tender only has to be accepted where a debt is owed.

I have to say, thats a fair assessment. Some people are paranoid about being ripped off and the big bad shopkeeper is trying to do it.

dudara

emeldc wrote: »

Visa Debit .25c PT
Mastercard Debit .25c PT
..
Laser .20c PT

Is that 25c per transaction or .25c?

I notice that a lot of printed material mixes up € and c

emeldc

dudara wrote: »

Is that 25c per transaction or .25c?

I notice that a lot of printed material mixes up € and c

Sorry yes, 25cent per transaction.

Remember that the customer also gets charged (up to) 25c each time they use the card. A way to save the customer some bank charges is when you are offered 'cash back' it is considered the same transaction and so still only costs the retailer and the customer 25c each. If you refuse the 'cash back' and then go to the ATM you are charged again. The retailer in turn ends up with surplus cash and has to go to the bank to lodge it for which he is charged (I think) 1% or €10 per €1k.

SpaceTime

Consider that Laser Card at its peak processed 195,000,000 transactions and I would suspect that the new Visa Debit schemes possibly process more and does not include Irish credit cards or foreign debit/credit card either.

So let's say 200,000,000 as a good even number.

So, the transaction fees are working out at € 50,000,000 / year

Nice little earner for doing very little other than supplying off-the-shelf technology.
and that's BEFORE you start looking at % on credit cards and other %s added on here and there by the banks too.

They're not exactly running the transactions networks on the cheap, that's for sure!

Although, I suppose we have to tighten our belts and think of those poor unfortunate Irish and international bankers! They have needs you know!

foggy_lad

emeldc wrote: »

Just to confirm the charges, I have a terminal here and had a look at my statement.

Terminal rental - €17.70 + vat PM. ( Thats quite cheap actually)
Master card credit personal 2.38% per transaction
Visa Credit Personal 2.38% PT
Visa Debit .25c PT
Mastercard Debit .25c PT
Visa Business 2.98% PT
Visa Debit Com intl 2.98% PT
Laser .20c PT

Minimum transaction charge regardless of number of transactions is €30.

These figures are typical of a small business but will vary depending who the supplier of the terminal is and the size of turnover etc.

Next time you get your car serviced see if the garage put a surcharge on for tools and electricity and heating and phone rental if the ring to tell you your car is ready.

emeldc wrote: »

Sorry yes, 25cent per transaction.

Remember that the customer also gets charged (up to) 25c each time they use the card. A way to save the customer some bank charges is when you are offered 'cash back' it is considered the same transaction and so still only costs the retailer and the customer 25c each. If you refuse the 'cash back' and then go to the ATM you are charged again. The retailer in turn ends up with surplus cash and has to go to the bank to lodge it for which he is charged (I think) 1% or €10 per €1k.

Remember that most people will not pay any transaction fees for using their debit card with most accounts, with the EBS I can use my card free in shops as well as online.

It is the cost of the business shops are in. if the Kitchen gets too hot then get out of it.

ScouseMouse

foggy_lad wrote: »

Next time you get your car serviced see if the garage put a surcharge on for tools and electricity and heating and phone rental if the ring to tell you your car is ready.



Remember that most people will not pay any transaction fees for using their debit card with most accounts, with the EBS I can use my card free in shops as well as online.

It is the cost of the business shops are in. if the Kitchen gets too hot then get out of it.

And again we disagree. "most people" you say. Well most people with AIB pay fees. Ulster bank has no fees as long as you have a couple of grand on deposit and as for your EBS. This says its very limited

Just because you may have no fees for whatever reason, you are in a minority. You only have to read the consumer and banking forums to read about people giving out about the fees.

wonski

superscouse wrote: »

And again we disagree. "most people" you say. Well most people with AIB pay fees. Ulster bank has no fees as long as you have a couple of grand on deposit and as for your EBS. This says its very limited

Just because you may have no fees for whatever reason, you are in a minority. You only have to read the consumer and banking forums to read about people giving out about the fees.

Actually in Ulster Bank you only pay 4euro/month. No other charges. There is also Permanent TSB who won't charge you a penny.
People giving out about charges? In 5 years living here never paid for any transaction. All they need to do is switch, or just open another account for day to day transactions. Takes an hour to open an account.

foggy_lad

superscouse wrote: »

And again we disagree. "most people" you say. Well most people with AIB pay fees. Ulster bank has no fees as long as you have a couple of grand on deposit and as for your EBS. This says its very limited

Just because you may have no fees for whatever reason, you are in a minority. You only have to read the consumer and banking forums to read about people giving out about the fees.

It is not limited at all, If you withdraw from a branch or ATM you pay but if you use the debit card to buy in shops and online you pay no charges, Even getting cashback is free. Even buying on Amazon is cheaper to buy in £ using the EBS currency exchange than using the Amazon one paying in €. (The rate is about 1% with minimum fee of 30cent)

emeldc

foggy_lad wrote: »

Remember that most people will not pay any transaction fees for using their debit card with most accounts, with the EBS I can use my card free in shops as well as online.

It is the cost of the business shops are in. if the Kitchen gets too hot then get out of it.

I wasn't complaining about cards or their charges, in fact they work quite well for me. Increased turnover, less trips to the bank and if I can give cash back I have less lodgement charges. I'm simply trying to make the point that if were all a bit more efficient with our cards we would all pay less in charges.
And you are absolutely in a minority if you have no charges on your card.
You're not in business for yourself I take it!

ScouseMouse

wonski wrote: »

Actually in Ulster Bank you only pay 4euro/month. No other charges. There is also Permanent TSB who won't charge you a penny.
People giving out about charges? In 5 years living here never paid for any transaction. All they need to do is switch, or just open another account for day to day transactions. Takes an hour to open an account.

Is PTSB based on lodging 1500 per month?
If so, lots of people cannot do that.

Ulster is €4 per month, thats still a fee and its only so low because they were desperate to hang onto customers after their IT crash. That will not last, I guarantee it.


EBS website says:
Get five no-fee withdrawals per month.

There is no EBS charge for your first five withdrawals each month (ATMs or in-branch), if you

lodge at least €1,500 to your account each month. This could be your salary or made up of a few smaller lodgements,

or

keep a minimum balance of €500 in your account each month.

Please note: There is a maximum of five qualifying withdrawals per month.

That makes it limited, not to mention, in my experiences, EBS have very few cards out there. I base this on the fact, I have entire weeks when I do not see ANY EBS cards while I may process 100 other cards every week.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

emeldc wrote: »

I wasn't complaining about cards or their charges, in fact they work quite well for me. Increased turnover, less trips to the bank and if I can give cash back I have less lodgement charges. I'm simply trying to make the point that if were all a bit more efficient with our cards we would all pay less in charges.
And you are absolutely in a minority if you have no charges on your card.
You're not in business for yourself I take it!

I think you are confusing account maintenance fees with transaction fees. I too never play any charges to use my Debit card. Using a credit card to buy a bus ticket is overkill - get a debit card!

ScouseMouse

Zuri Large Papier-mache wrote: »

I think you are confusing account maintenance fees with transaction fees. I too never play any charges to use my Debit card. Using a credit card to buy a bus ticket is overkill - get a debit card!

Do you mind if ask, how do you get that. I assume you are holding a lump in one of the banks, or maybe lodge the 1500 into PTSB ?

SteM

superscouse wrote: »

Is PTSB based on lodging 1500 per month?
If so, lots of people cannot do that.

Yes, you must lodge €1500 over the course of the month to avoid paying transaction fees with PTSB. They say that this €1500 does not have to be lodged in one go but can come in multiple transactions and does not have to stay in the account for a fixed amount of time.

I wonder what would happen if someone lodged €600 then withdrew it and did this 2 more times. That's €1800 being lodged in the account.

foggy_lad

superscouse wrote: »

EBS website says:
Get five no-fee withdrawals per month.

There is no EBS charge for your first five withdrawals each month (ATMs or in-branch), if you

lodge at least €1,500 to your account each month. This could be your salary or made up of a few smaller lodgements,

or

keep a minimum balance of €500 in your account each month.

Please note: There is a maximum of five qualifying withdrawals per month.

That makes it limited, not to mention, in my experiences, EBS have very few cards out there. I base this on the fact, I have entire weeks when I do not see ANY EBS cards while I may process 100 other cards every week.

There are no charges for using your debit card online or for purchases in shops or for getting cashback from shops. These are the transactions most people make most often!

wonski

superscouse wrote: »

Do you mind if ask, how do you get that. I assume you are holding a lump in one of the banks, or maybe lodge the 1500 into PTSB ?

If you don't lodge 1500/month you pay 12 euro/quarter maintenance fee. Other than that no charges. 1% interest on top of that. We went ot completely, but saying that people have to pay fees is not true. People choose to pay those fees.

Vision of Disorder

foggy_lad wrote: »

We as customers are expected to pay extra to use a card or to buy credit and then you want us to pay your banking charges as well! Enough already!

Just on phone credit, I manage a Centra and recently the providers increased their costs yet again, if I was to sell €5 or €10 of phone credit to a customer I would literally (and I do mean literally) be losing money now, the recommended retail price is now €5.50 and €10.50 respectively. It was also suggested we raise the cost of higher denominations of credit but I've resisted that so far. I'm not gouging, or profiteering, or taking a little extra to pay my ESB or my wages, I am selling a product for a pitiful, miniscule profit in the hope that some of the people who come in to top up their phone may also buy something else (ditto for Lotto).

We do accept credit cards and, within reason, don't have a minimum fee set in stone for the customer to use one.

foggy_lad

Vision of Disorder wrote: »

Just on phone credit, I manage a Centra and recently the providers increased their costs yet again, if I was to sell €5 or €10 of phone credit to a customer I would literally (and I do mean literally) be losing money now, the recommended retail price is now €5.50 and €10.50 respectively. It was also suggested we raise the cost of higher denominations of credit but I've resisted that so far. I'm not gouging, or profiteering, or taking a little extra to pay my ESB or my wages, I am selling a product for a pitiful, miniscule profit in the hope that some of the people who come in to top up their phone may also buy something else (ditto for Lotto).

We do accept credit cards and, within reason, don't have a minimum fee set in stone for the customer to use one.

Like all other products and services nobody is forcing any shop to sell phone credit or to take debit/credit cards but how long would a busy shop last if they stopped taking cards and only sold phone credit in €20 denominations?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

superscouse wrote: »

Do you mind if ask, how do you get that. I assume you are holding a lump in one of the banks, or maybe lodge the 1500 into PTSB ?

Yes, I do mind. I am not with ptsb btw . Would you like bank account and pin number while I'm at it.:D

Point is that many people do not pay to use a debit card. If you do then shop around to find a bank that better suits you.

Vision of Disorder

foggy_lad wrote: »

Like all other products and services nobody is forcing any shop to sell phone credit or to take debit/credit cards

Nobody forces the consumer to buy it either. Get a bill phone if it bothers you that much. €10 of credit costs a retailer more than €10 to buy. They won't sell it at a loss and nor should they. I don't see your issue with that to be honest.

Fad

Beagslife wrote: »

Just out of interest, what type of student bus ticket costs €91.50 a month. Do you get to keep the bus. I'm getting old!

30 (can be non-consecutive) days of virtually unlimited Dublin bus travel. S'pretty good value.