Credit Card Refused

saltyjack silverblade

I was buying my student bus ticket today which costs E91.50 for 30 days. When I handed in my credit card to pay the shop said sorry we don't take those, only debit. This happened in two more shops. They hadn't even put the card in the machine for payment, they just blankly refused. I used it to pay in the 4th shop.

Does anyone have an explanation as to why this is happening?

jameshayes

many shops (inc all lidl & aldi stores) don't accept credit, only debit - presumably due to the % of the sale paid to visa / MC.. there is no/very little profit margin on the sale of a bus ticket (and lotto for that matter), shops only sell them in hope you buy something else, if you pay for a bus ticket with your credit, there is a good chance the shop is losing money

saltyjack silverblade

Do you know what % they are charged? I have paid for stuff in Lidl with a credit card. Last Thursday to be exact.

emeldc

The retailer is charged up to 3% or more for accepting credit cards. They're probably not making 3% on the bus ticket.

Lidl have a much greater margin on their products and they may have a better deal with the banks where they are charged a smaller %.

Red Nissan

saltyjack silverblade wrote: »

Do you know what % they are charged? I have paid for stuff in Lidl with a credit card. Last Thursday to be exact.

Interesting.

L1011

jameshayes wrote: »

many shops (inc all lidl & aldi stores) don't accept credit, only debit

Lidl started accepting credit cards within the last few months.

As explained, using a card to buy certain items ends up causing the shop to lose money.

ironclaw

emeldc wrote: »

The retailer is charged up to 3% or more for accepting credit cards. They're probably not making 3% on the bus ticket.

This is entirely correct. Also to add a retailer does not have to accept any form of card as payment.

saltyjack silverblade

ironclaw wrote: »

This is entirely correct. Also to add a retailer does not have to accept any form of card as payment.

I can accept the any form of card as payment but they really should have a notice up, which none of them did.
It would make me reluctant to use a card as a sole reliance of payment rather than my debit card.

mathepac

MYOB wrote: »

Lidl started accepting credit cards within the last few months... .

Real credit-cards or the top-up SWIRL / RyanAir jobs where the card-holder pays all the charges?

jameshayes

MYOB wrote: »

Lidl started accepting credit cards within the last few months.

As explained, using a card to buy certain items ends up causing the shop to lose money.

Yup - didn't hear that

"Now accepting Credit Cards!"

http://www.lidl.ie/cps/rde/xchg/lidl_ri_ie/hs.xsl/customer-service.htm

skydish79

Banks government want us to use less cash, can you imagine if we started using our credit cards more they would probably hike the % up

Im sure we are really paying the % charge its just added into the cost of goods

Max Power 2010

<SNIP - watch the language and tone)

L1011

mathepac wrote: »

Real credit-cards or the top-up SWIRL / RyanAir jobs where the card-holder pays all the charges?

Real although I doubt they'll refuse any prepaid-with-chip ones.

ScouseMouse

The bus tickets gets the shop 4%

The credit card costs the shop between 2% and 4%

So, in effect, your transaction was as good as worthless.

ScouseMouse

mathepac wrote: »

Real credit-cards or the top-up SWIRL / RyanAir jobs where the card-holder pays all the charges?

Does not matter. Shop pays.

Cabaal

saltyjack silverblade wrote: »

I can accept the any form of card as payment but they really should have a notice up, which none of them did.
It would make me reluctant to use a card as a sole reliance of payment rather than my debit card.

Did the shop have anything up saying they did accept credit cards?

If not then you merely assumed the would, I don't see why they need a sign up saying they don't.

Geuze

jameshayes wrote: »

many shops (inc all lidl & aldi stores) don't accept credit, only debit - presumably due to the % of the sale paid to visa / MC..

Lidl now accept CC, which I found unusual.

CC merchant fees can be as high as 1.5%, or maybe more.

EDIT - I see 3% mentioned - that is crazy high.

saltyjack silverblade

Cabaal wrote: »

Did the shop have anything up saying they did accept credit cards?

If not then you merely assumed the would, I don't see why they need a sign up saying they don't.

I would assume a credit card is a standard form of payment and once they have those card machines then they would accept it.

Bepolite

The shop doesn't have to accept any payment full stop. There is no need for a sign, you've no right to buy anything in a shop. I'm not trying to have a go at you OP just explain the situation.

saltyjack silverblade

Bepolite wrote: »

The shop doesn't have to accept any payment full stop. There is no need for a sign, you've no right to buy anything in a shop. I'm not trying to have a go at you OP just explain the situation.

I know what the legal situation is, but there is an assumption when you are purchasing goods, with a card machine on display, that a credit card would be acceptable.

Bepolite

saltyjack silverblade wrote: »

I know what the legal situation is, but there is an assumption when you are purchasing goods, with a card machine on display, that a credit card would be acceptable.

I'm not sure I agree with that, just taking the number of people on this thread that don't seem to assume it. To be fair I can see your point of view I just think most people realise to be honest.

Glenbhoy

Geuze wrote: »

Lidl now accept CC, which I found unusual.

CC merchant fees can be as high as 1.5%, or maybe more.

EDIT - I see 3% mentioned - that is crazy high.

2.5% is common enough, but I haven't heard of it being higher than that. It's up to the shop whether or not to accept the cards or not, but it's unlikely that they'll be losing money on the transaction. And I disagree that the difference between 4% commission for the bus and the 2.5% charge on a €91.50 transaction is worthless, in fact I think it was a reasonable return for the shop for one transaction, not as high as if they could have the consumer pay in cash, but still, decent enough.

Incidentally, I was in a shop recently where I tried to pay for €8.00 odd of goods with a credit card, the guy at the till told me that it would cost an extra 35c if I wanted to pay with card on transactions below €10, I paid with cash and told him that I was fairly sure his demand was illegal, it's okay to have a limit, but you can't demand extra to facilitate card payments? In any event, he was a nice guy and I understood why he thought that his demand was acceptable.

ScouseMouse

We are a LONG way from a cashless society.

The banks can tell their customers what they like, but it is only self serving.

Until they lower their charges, we cannot go any further. I saw a mention above of 91 euro and whether it was worthwhile. If that was me, I would have done the maths and probably accepted it as I would still have been left with something.

But most tickets are well under that, so whatever shop it was, was just following his instructions.


In general though, if you only make 4% on something, handing over 2/3% to a bank makes it pointless. Then you have to pay the staff......

3DataModem

superscouse wrote: »

The bus tickets gets the shop 4%

The credit card costs the shop between 2% and 4%

So, in effect, your transaction was as good as worthless.

If you are paying that for domestic / European card processing, you are paying too much.

andersat2

saltyjack silverblade wrote: »

I was buying my student bus ticket today which costs E91.50 for 30 days. When I handed in my credit card to pay the shop said sorry we don't take those, only debit. This happened in two more shops. They hadn't even put the card in the machine for payment, they just blankly refused. I used it to pay in the 4th shop.

Does anyone have an explanation as to why this is happening?

1. Why not to buy on-line? They delivering tickets by anpost usually next day.
2. Why not to buy in normal local shops (Centra, Spar, Mace etc)? I mean those old fashion newsagents with overpriced items trying to save on everything, including not accepting credit cards (saving bank fees). I'm ignoring them for a long time already.
3. Visa/Mastercard charges bank for every transaction. Bank charges retailer after that as well. Small retailers not able to pay those hi fees. (Big retailers have some sort of discounts on that)

Corkbah

andersat2 wrote: »

1. Why not to by on-line? They delivering tickets by anpost usually next day.
2. Why not to buy in normal local shops (Centra, Spar, Mace etc)? I mean those old fashion newsagents with overpriced items trying to save on everything, including not accepting credit cards (saving bank fees). I'm ignoring them for a long time already.
3. Visa/Mastercard charges bank for every transaction. Bank charges retailer and customer after that as well. Small retailers not able to pay those hi fees. (Big retailers have some sort of discounts on that)

dont forget we also pay bank charges on our purchases - so the banks charge everyone for their service !!

Beagslife

Just out of interest, what type of student bus ticket costs €91.50 a month. Do you get to keep the bus. I'm getting old!

saltyjack silverblade wrote: »

I was buying my student bus ticket today which costs E91.50 for 30 days. When I handed in my credit card to pay the shop said sorry we don't take those, only debit. This happened in two more shops. They hadn't even put the card in the machine for payment, they just blankly refused. I used it to pay in the 4th shop.

Does anyone have an explanation as to why this is happening?

SpaceTime

Until the banks stop gouging retailers and consumers for using cards, they simply won't take off in Ireland in the way that they have elsewhere.

I keep coming across pointless articles about how it's 'cultural'.
It's cultural because the banks have a culture of ripping people off with high charges it's as simple as that.

Make cards affordable to use for both payer and payee and they'll take off in a big way.

I mean, why would I pay a banking charge to use my contactless debit card to buy the newspaper?
I might as well just throw some cash into the bankers' benevolent fund box.

People don't use things because they're 'high tech'. They use them because they're convenient and cost effective.

foggy_lad

The small shopkeepers are the whole time penalising their loyal customer because they get shafted by credit card companies or mobile companies or the banks fees when we pay in cash etc etc............ENOUGH! stop trying to pass on the cost of running a business to the customer! Having a shop it is accepted that you sell phone top ups and take cresit and debit cards. If ye have a problem with the costs then ye are in the wrong business and should close up shop.

SpaceTime

foggy_lad wrote: »

The small shopkeepers are tue whole time penalising their loyal customer for them being shafted by credit card companies or mobile companies or tue banks fees wheb we pay in cash.......ENOUGH! stop trying to pass on the cost of running a business to tue customer! Having a shop it is accepted that you sell phone top ups and take cresit and debit cards. If ye have a problem with the costs then ye are in the wrong business and should close up shop.

While there's an element of some of the small retailers not shopping around enough for a cheaper acquirer of credit cards, the amount of hoops that banks put you through and the high fees for merchant accounts etc are what drives that.

If you're a major chain like Tesco you are in a position to bully the banks into coming up with a decent price for you and because of the huge volume of transactions, no bank in their right mind is going to turn you away. Small players are just shafted.

I do think though that small shop keepers should band together and see if they can hammer out some better deals on these things.

Their representative bodies should really be hammering this one home very hard.

Corkbah

SpaceTime wrote: »

Until the banks stop gouging retailers and consumers for using cards, they simply won't take off in Ireland in the way that they have elsewhere.

I keep coming across pointless articles about how it's 'cultural'.
It's cultural because the banks have a culture of ripping people off with high charges it's as simple as that.

Make cards affordable to use for both payer and payee and they'll take off in a big way.

I mean, why would I pay a banking charge to use my contactless debit card to buy the newspaper?
I might as well just throw some cash into the bankers' benevolent fund box.

People don't use things because they're 'high tech'. They use them because they're convenient and cost effective.

you will be paying bank charges on every transaction with your card, cheapest solution is cash withdrawal at start of the week/month and budget accordingly...... problem is you spend more when you physically have cash and you spend more when you dont notice how much you are spending (cards only)

SpaceTime

That's precisely why people continue to use cash in very large volumes in Ireland though.

In countries with more competitive retail banking markets, the costs are much lower or you've fee-free banking.

I wouldn't even mind paying the bank say a tenner per quarter or something for unlimited debit transactions but the per transaction fees make it worse than an old Telecom Eireann land line!

ScouseMouse

foggy_lad wrote: »

The small shopkeepers are the whole time penalising their loyal customer because they get shafted by credit card companies or mobile companies or the banks fees when we pay in cash etc etc............ENOUGH! stop trying to pass on the cost of running a business to the customer! Having a shop it is accepted that you sell phone top ups and take credit and debit cards. If ye have a problem with the costs then ye are in the wrong business and should close up shop.

Penalising people?

What a stupid comment. A shop is a business, its not a charity.

Just in case you dont realise it, ALL charges get passed onto the customers. The shop buys something, it costs something. Then the other associated costs are added. Then a profit margin (god forbid the shop is a commercial entity that is trying to make money - the DISGRACE in that), then they sell it on to the customer.

You would do well to remember that instead of silly comments like you put above

x43r0

I bought some milk on the way home from work yesterday evening for 89p and paid by contactless credit card chip on the back of my phone


One of the things I hate when visiting home is carrying cash with me all the time

foggy_lad

superscouse wrote: »

Penalising people?

What a stupid comment. A shop is a business, its not a charity.

Just in case you dont realise it, ALL charges get passed onto the customers. The shop buys something, it costs something. Then the other associated costs are added. Then a profit margin (god forbid the shop is a commercial entity that is trying to make money - the DISGRACE in that), then they sell it on to the customer.

You would do well to remember that instead of silly comments like you put above

We as customers are expected to pay extra to use a card or to buy credit and then you want us to pay your banking charges as well! Enough already!

Corkbah

x43r0 wrote: »

I bought some milk on the way home from work yesterday evening for 89p and paid by contactless credit card chip on the back of my phone


One of the things I hate when visiting home is carrying cash with me all the time

but even if you went to the atm or actual bank counter to take out money - you'd be charged.

SpaceTime

x43r0 wrote: »

I bought some milk on the way home from work yesterday evening for 89p and paid by contactless credit card chip on the back of my phone


One of the things I hate when visiting home is carrying cash with me all the time

Pretty much all recently issued Irish debit cards are contactless too and a few places do use them:

McDonald’s, Insomnia, Arnotts, Boots, Centra, Marks and Spencer, Spar, Eurospar and Mace.

The problem is that, depending on your bank, you could be paying an extra 20cent for that 'pay by bonk' transaction so, a lot of people don't bother.

Corkbah wrote: »

but even if you went to the atm or actual bank counter to take out money - you'd be charged.

You won't be charged 20 cent for spending 89cent though. You might get charged 20 cent to withdraw €200 which is a lot better value.

I mean, if you added 20 cent to every small transaction you made here and there, you'd be donating vast amounts of money to the banks.

For small transactions its extremely bad value.

x43r0

Corkbah wrote: »

but even if you went to the atm or actual bank counter to take out money - you'd be charged.

You mean withdraw cash with a CC? That's just asking for death by charges!


I rarely carry more than a fiver on me most of the time anyway

emeldc

Just to confirm the charges, I have a terminal here and had a look at my statement.

Terminal rental - €17.70 + vat PM. ( Thats quite cheap actually)
Master card credit personal 2.38% per transaction
Visa Credit Personal 2.38% PT
Visa Debit .25c PT
Mastercard Debit .25c PT
Visa Business 2.98% PT
Visa Debit Com intl 2.98% PT
Laser .20c PT

Minimum transaction charge regardless of number of transactions is €30.

These figures are typical of a small business but will vary depending who the supplier of the terminal is and the size of turnover etc.

Guy:Incognito

foggy_lad wrote: »

We as customers are expected to pay extra to use a card or to buy credit and then you want us to pay your banking charges as well! Enough already!

The customer pays all the costs associated with running a shop. That's the point. The shops only income is from customers. Every cost added together + profit = price of the item.

SpaceTime

The other aspect of this is that the large volume of cash in circulation is causing all these cash-in-transit and shop raids.

We should have cost-effective debit cards and we should also have the option of pre-loading contactless cards or chip & pin as if they were cash.

The technology's there (literally already installed in most places). The banks just don't want to do it and the market's not being opened to other operators in a sufficient way.

The banks also don't seem to comprehend that there's a cost involved in handling cash. All that extra security is not free and there are losses in terms of cash raids, theft in shops by staff and all the manual handling that has to be done to count it, bundle it, etc etc

On top of that, just think of the costs for society at large of not doing this : Increased crime, people's lives put at risk protecting cash, people unnecessarily caught up in raids on garages, shops etc, Gardai put at risk and occupied solving crimes that shouldn't have happened in the first place.

I mean, even look at something simple like Pay-at-Pump petrol stations. These have been common elsewhere for many years and are only starting to appear in Ireland now?!

I can't see any reason why petrol stations (which are often targeted by criminals at night) don't simply move to cards-only policies after 11pm or whatever.

foggy_lad wrote: »

We as customers are expected to pay extra to use a card or to buy credit and then you want us to pay your banking charges as well! Enough already!

I'd rather the shop gave me a choice of paying with an alternative method rather than passing the charge on by increasing the price of every item. At least that gives the customers a choice in the matter!

As pointed out by a previous poster, you're paying for all the overheads anyway. They're shops, they're not state services.

The shopkeeper is just taking a decision that they're going to pass the transaction cost onto people who CHOOSE to use that mode of payment rather than everyone who walks into the shop.
That allows them to keep their prices lower and their overheads down.

Other than legal tender (i.e. Euro cash) the shop has absolutely no obligation to accept private payment systems like cards, cheques, travellers' cheques, vouchers etc.

Even with cash, they don't have to sell you the item at all if they don't feel like it. Legal tender only has to be accepted where a debt is owed.

ScouseMouse

SpaceTime wrote: »

The other aspect of this is that the large volume of cash in circulation is causing all these cash-in-transit and shop raids.

We should have cost-effective debit cards and we should also have the option of pre-loading contactless cards or chip & pin as if they were cash.

The technology's there (literally already installed in most places). The banks just don't want to do it and the market's not being opened to other operators in a sufficient way.

The banks also don't seem to comprehend that there's a cost involved in handling cash. All that extra security is not free and there are losses in terms of cash raids, theft in shops by staff and all the manual handling that has to be done to count it, bundle it, etc etc

On top of that, just think of the costs for society at large of not doing this : Increased crime, people's lives put at risk protecting cash, people unnecessarily caught up in raids on garages, shops etc, Gardai put at risk and occupied solving crimes that shouldn't have happened in the first place.

I mean, even look at something simple like Pay-at-Pump petrol stations. These have been common elsewhere for many years and are only starting to appear in Ireland now?!

I can't see any reason why petrol stations (which are often targeted by criminals at night) don't simply move to cards-only policies after 11pm or whatever.



I'd rather the shop gave me a choice of paying with an alternative method rather than passing the charge on by increasing the price of every item. At least that gives the customers a choice in the matter!

As pointed out by a previous poster, you're paying for all the overheads anyway. They're shops, they're not state services.

The shopkeeper is just taking a decision that they're going to pass the transaction cost onto people who CHOOSE to use that mode of payment rather than everyone who walks into the shop.
That allows them to keep their prices lower and their overheads down.

Other than legal tender (i.e. Euro cash) the shop has absolutely no obligation to accept private payment systems like cards, cheques, travellers' cheques, vouchers etc.

Even with cash, they don't have to sell you the item at all if they don't feel like it. Legal tender only has to be accepted where a debt is owed.

I have to say, thats a fair assessment. Some people are paranoid about being ripped off and the big bad shopkeeper is trying to do it.

dudara

emeldc wrote: »

Visa Debit .25c PT
Mastercard Debit .25c PT
..
Laser .20c PT

Is that 25c per transaction or .25c?

I notice that a lot of printed material mixes up € and c

emeldc

dudara wrote: »

Is that 25c per transaction or .25c?

I notice that a lot of printed material mixes up € and c

Sorry yes, 25cent per transaction.

Remember that the customer also gets charged (up to) 25c each time they use the card. A way to save the customer some bank charges is when you are offered 'cash back' it is considered the same transaction and so still only costs the retailer and the customer 25c each. If you refuse the 'cash back' and then go to the ATM you are charged again. The retailer in turn ends up with surplus cash and has to go to the bank to lodge it for which he is charged (I think) 1% or €10 per €1k.

SpaceTime

Consider that Laser Card at its peak processed 195,000,000 transactions and I would suspect that the new Visa Debit schemes possibly process more and does not include Irish credit cards or foreign debit/credit card either.

So let's say 200,000,000 as a good even number.

So, the transaction fees are working out at € 50,000,000 / year

Nice little earner for doing very little other than supplying off-the-shelf technology.
and that's BEFORE you start looking at % on credit cards and other %s added on here and there by the banks too.

They're not exactly running the transactions networks on the cheap, that's for sure!

Although, I suppose we have to tighten our belts and think of those poor unfortunate Irish and international bankers! They have needs you know!

foggy_lad

emeldc wrote: »

Just to confirm the charges, I have a terminal here and had a look at my statement.

Terminal rental - €17.70 + vat PM. ( Thats quite cheap actually)
Master card credit personal 2.38% per transaction
Visa Credit Personal 2.38% PT
Visa Debit .25c PT
Mastercard Debit .25c PT
Visa Business 2.98% PT
Visa Debit Com intl 2.98% PT
Laser .20c PT

Minimum transaction charge regardless of number of transactions is €30.

These figures are typical of a small business but will vary depending who the supplier of the terminal is and the size of turnover etc.

Next time you get your car serviced see if the garage put a surcharge on for tools and electricity and heating and phone rental if the ring to tell you your car is ready.

emeldc wrote: »

Sorry yes, 25cent per transaction.

Remember that the customer also gets charged (up to) 25c each time they use the card. A way to save the customer some bank charges is when you are offered 'cash back' it is considered the same transaction and so still only costs the retailer and the customer 25c each. If you refuse the 'cash back' and then go to the ATM you are charged again. The retailer in turn ends up with surplus cash and has to go to the bank to lodge it for which he is charged (I think) 1% or €10 per €1k.

Remember that most people will not pay any transaction fees for using their debit card with most accounts, with the EBS I can use my card free in shops as well as online.

It is the cost of the business shops are in. if the Kitchen gets too hot then get out of it.

ScouseMouse

foggy_lad wrote: »

Next time you get your car serviced see if the garage put a surcharge on for tools and electricity and heating and phone rental if the ring to tell you your car is ready.



Remember that most people will not pay any transaction fees for using their debit card with most accounts, with the EBS I can use my card free in shops as well as online.

It is the cost of the business shops are in. if the Kitchen gets too hot then get out of it.

And again we disagree. "most people" you say. Well most people with AIB pay fees. Ulster bank has no fees as long as you have a couple of grand on deposit and as for your EBS. This says its very limited

Just because you may have no fees for whatever reason, you are in a minority. You only have to read the consumer and banking forums to read about people giving out about the fees.

wonski

superscouse wrote: »

And again we disagree. "most people" you say. Well most people with AIB pay fees. Ulster bank has no fees as long as you have a couple of grand on deposit and as for your EBS. This says its very limited

Just because you may have no fees for whatever reason, you are in a minority. You only have to read the consumer and banking forums to read about people giving out about the fees.

Actually in Ulster Bank you only pay 4euro/month. No other charges. There is also Permanent TSB who won't charge you a penny.
People giving out about charges? In 5 years living here never paid for any transaction. All they need to do is switch, or just open another account for day to day transactions. Takes an hour to open an account.

foggy_lad

superscouse wrote: »

And again we disagree. "most people" you say. Well most people with AIB pay fees. Ulster bank has no fees as long as you have a couple of grand on deposit and as for your EBS. This says its very limited

Just because you may have no fees for whatever reason, you are in a minority. You only have to read the consumer and banking forums to read about people giving out about the fees.

It is not limited at all, If you withdraw from a branch or ATM you pay but if you use the debit card to buy in shops and online you pay no charges, Even getting cashback is free. Even buying on Amazon is cheaper to buy in £ using the EBS currency exchange than using the Amazon one paying in €. (The rate is about 1% with minimum fee of 30cent)

emeldc

foggy_lad wrote: »

Remember that most people will not pay any transaction fees for using their debit card with most accounts, with the EBS I can use my card free in shops as well as online.

It is the cost of the business shops are in. if the Kitchen gets too hot then get out of it.

I wasn't complaining about cards or their charges, in fact they work quite well for me. Increased turnover, less trips to the bank and if I can give cash back I have less lodgement charges. I'm simply trying to make the point that if were all a bit more efficient with our cards we would all pay less in charges.
And you are absolutely in a minority if you have no charges on your card.
You're not in business for yourself I take it!

ScouseMouse

wonski wrote: »

Actually in Ulster Bank you only pay 4euro/month. No other charges. There is also Permanent TSB who won't charge you a penny.
People giving out about charges? In 5 years living here never paid for any transaction. All they need to do is switch, or just open another account for day to day transactions. Takes an hour to open an account.

Is PTSB based on lodging 1500 per month?
If so, lots of people cannot do that.

Ulster is €4 per month, thats still a fee and its only so low because they were desperate to hang onto customers after their IT crash. That will not last, I guarantee it.


EBS website says:
Get five no-fee withdrawals per month.

There is no EBS charge for your first five withdrawals each month (ATMs or in-branch), if you

lodge at least €1,500 to your account each month. This could be your salary or made up of a few smaller lodgements,

or

keep a minimum balance of €500 in your account each month.

Please note: There is a maximum of five qualifying withdrawals per month.

That makes it limited, not to mention, in my experiences, EBS have very few cards out there. I base this on the fact, I have entire weeks when I do not see ANY EBS cards while I may process 100 other cards every week.