HAS THE TIME COME TO SPLIT DUBLIN GAA??

prospect

Dots1982 wrote: »

No I'm not advocating a spilt. I'm talking about population advantage that certain posters are in denial about.

To what end?


Either way, 3 of the 4 most prominent finalists of the last 10 years do not appear on your list of counties. So how do you explain away that one?

PRAF

It's been a while since I did any stats in college. However, looking at the data, I'd say there is some linkage between population and All Ireland success. However, it isn't a very strong link, there are other important factors at play (structures, tradition, coaching, etc.), and there will always be exceptions to the rule.

For me, the argument should never be about weakening the good counties. However, if a couple of the lesser populated counties expressed a wish to combine forces to give themselves a better chance of success, I would be in favour of that. For example, if Louth and Meath wanted to field a combined team in the hurling, if Wexford and Carlow wanted to field a combined team in the football, etc.

Can't see it ever happening, just wouldn't be against it if it did.

Dots1982

prospect wrote: »

To what end?


Either way, 3 of the 4 most prominent finalists of the last 10 years do not appear on your list of counties. So how do you explain away that one?

I explain it away by repeating

The 5 most populous counties in Ireland are Dublin, Antrim, Down, Galway and Cork and have won the All-Ireland 44 times combined.

The 5 least populous counties in Ireland are Leitrim, Longford, Carlow, Monaghan and Fermanagh and none of them have ever won an All-ireland.

Population advantage = success CLEARLY


Your selecting a certain time period to meet your argument I'm taking the whole historic record.

ceegee

Dots1982 wrote: »

The 5 most populous counties in Ireland are Dublin, Antrim, Down, Galway and Cork and have won the All-Ireland 44 times combined.

The 5 least populous counties in Ireland are Leitrim, Longford, Carlow, Monaghan and Fermanagh and none of them have ever won an All-ireland.

Anyone who think population is not a huge factor in these sucesses & Failures is just denying the obvious.

Does the fact that 2 out of those top five counties have won feck all not counter your argument? Going further down the population list you get Derry and Kildare. So thats 4 out of the top 7 populations with a handful of wins between them

tritium

Dots1982 wrote: »

The 5 most populous counties in Ireland are Dublin, Antrim, Down, Galway and Cork and have won the All-Ireland 44 times combined.

The 5 least populous counties in Ireland are Leitrim, Longford, Carlow, Monaghan and Fermanagh and none of them have ever won an All-ireland.

Anyone who think population is not a huge factor in these sucesses & Failures is just denying the obvious.

The vast bulk of the titles belong to just two counties on that list. Both of them are behind far less populated Kerry. Size may be a factor at the extremes but claiming some massive advantage for Dublin just isn't borne out by the figures

Dots1982

ceegee wrote: »

Does the fact that 2 out of those top five counties have won feck all not counter your argument? Going further down the population list you get Derry and Kildare. So thats 4 out of the top 7 populations with a handful of wins between them

Down have won 2 which is 2 more than the combined total of the least populous counties so that reinforces my argument.

Antrim being a largely protestant community so a lot at play there in terms of secular populations that would not consider playing the game so no that doesnt counter my argument really.

prospect

Dots1982 wrote: »

Your selecting a certain time period to meet your argument I'm taking the whole historic record.

Okay,

In the 'whole history' of Hurling you have the following:

Kilkenny - 34
Cork - 30
Tipperary - 26

As the most successful, 2 of those 3 do not feature in you list. Limerick are next, waayyyy behind on 7 titles.


You can dice an slice figures any way you like. It is easy to make them support either side of the argument.


If population was the major contributing factor (Which you yourself have shown is not the case ) then you'd have almost identical statistics across all 4 codes, Football, Camogie and Hurling, but this is not the case.


Actually, looking at the various Stats, Cork are by far the most successful county and if anyone was going to be split (which is a dumb idea) then it should be them.

Just An Opinion

freddiek wrote: »

Dublin have won 2 of the last 3 AI and will probably win 3 of the next 4. They are dominating at minor and U-21 level also

How longer will the GAA permit players from a bloated area which houses an enormous chunk of the Irish population to play in the same championship as one county as Leitrim, and other less fortunate counties??

An innovative proposal was aired some years back to split Dublin into North and South. This was shouted down and never got anywhere.

Currently, Dublin players get to play every match in the AI Championship at home. In Dublin. In front of their own supporters who have their own private terrace. The Hill 16 element is less important but is indicative of how reverentially Dublin is treated by the GAA

Travel/Commuting is not an issue for Dublin players like it is for so many other counties' players. They all live in Dublin, work near to where they live and play football. If only that was the case nationally, but it isnt

We have heard countless tales of inter-county standard players being forced to emigrate to look for work. So they are unavailable to their counties. Have u ever heard of a Dublin player having to emigrate?? No, me neither...

Dublin can avail of the best training facilities in their own city. Is it any wonder they are by far the fittest team in the country?? They have been working for years now with sports science experts to give them an edge. Other counties don't have this expertise or resources and so are well behind

If Dublin were to be split into North and South, either or both would still win AI titles. There is a huge amount of GAA clubs in both North and South Dublin, so this is nothing to be afraid of. There is also a natural rivalry in place between those N & S of the river.

---

So I say to the GAA, fairness must come before commerce. Dublin's status as the Association's cash cow cannot blind the GAA to reality.

I am from a Leinster county that has endured countless defeats by Dublin. Fair enough. Just get on with it and improve. But we don't have a level playing field any more.

For the good of our Association, something must be done.

I say to the GAA, Please give us a LEVEL PLAYING FIELD

Split Dublin GAA

I'm sorry but the rubbish from this poster over the summer regarding country parents and the 'anyone but Dublin' post in the supporting county teams thread nullifies debatable logic for me. Jog on freddiek, it's boring at this stage.

Dots1982

prospect wrote: »

Okay,

In the 'whole history' of Hurling you have the following:

Kilkenny - 34
Cork - 30
Tipperary - 26

As the most successful, 2 of those 3 do not feature in you list. Limerick are next, waayyyy behind on 7 titles.


You can dice an slice figures any way you like. It is easy to make them support either side of the argument.


If population was the major contributing factor (Which you yourself have shown is not the case ) then you'd have almost identical statistics across all 4 codes, Football, Camogie and Hurling, but this is not the case.


Actually, looking at the various Stats, Cork are by far the most successful county and if anyone was going to be split (which is a dumb idea) then it should be them.

Participation rates are higher in those counties for Hurling. Although they have smaller populations than Dublin I would not be suprised if the amount of hurlers in those counties would actually be higher.

Hurling is a different case than Football so comparing the two in this argument is not really fair.

jack presley

Dots1982 wrote: »

Hurling is a different case than Football so comparing the two in this argument is not really fair.

Why is population such a big factor in football but not in hurling?

Dots1982

jack presley wrote: »

Why is population such a big factor in football but not in hurling?

It is a big factor. Hurling has counties that have smaller populations than Dublin but their participatory rates would be higher. Practically every kid in Kilkenny would have held a hurl in their lifetime. This is not the case for counties with larger populations.

jack presley

Dots1982 wrote: »

It is a big factor. Hurling has counties that have smaller populations than Dublin but their participatory rates would be higher. Practically every kid in Kilkenny would have held a hurl in their lifetime. This is not the case for counties with larger populations.

Sorry if I'm taking this out of context as I'm only poping in and out of the thread and am not seeing every post but are you saying that out of men's football and hurling and women's football and camogie, men's football is the only one where population gives you a big advantage? But it's participation rates in the other sports that gives you the edge?

Ace2007

Dots1982 wrote: »

It is a big factor. Hurling has counties that have smaller populations than Dublin but their participatory rates would be higher. Practically every kid in Kilkenny would have held a hurl in their lifetime. This is not the case for counties with larger populations.

well there is no point in the kid playing GAA football as there is no team down there.

Your argument about population = success is false.
Why not go and look at the number of registered players per county and come back and spout the facts.

Dots1982

jack presley wrote: »

Sorry if I'm taking this out of context as I'm only poping in and out of the thread and am not seeing every post but are you saying that out of men's football and hurling and women's football and camogie, men's football is the only one where population gives you a big advantage? But it's participation rates in the other sports that gives you the edge?

Ok Dublin has 1.2 million people or whatever and lets say 50000 play football. In Wexford they have 70000 people about and lets say 2000 play football. It would make sense (to me) that Dublin would achieve more at football. History also shows this to be the case.

OK so Dublin has 1.2 million people or whatever and lets say 5000 play hurling while Kilkenny has about 80000 people and 10000 play hurling. It would make sense ( to me) that Kilkenny would achieve more at Hurling. History also shows this to be the case.

Although the figures may not be correct can you follow the logic easily of why it would make sense for Dublin to be better at football than Wexford and Kilkenny would be better than Dublin at Hurling?

jack presley

Dots1982 wrote: »

Ok Dublin has 1.2 million people or whatever and lets say 50000 play football. In Wexford they have 70000 people about and lets say 2000 play football. It would make sense (to me) that Dublin would achieve more at football. History also shows this to be the case.

OK so Dublin has 1.2 million people or whatever and lets say 5000 play hurling while Kilkenny has about 80000 people and 10000 play hurling. It would make sense ( to me) that Kilkenny would achieve more at Hurling. History also shows this to be the case.

Although the figures may not be correct can you follow the logic easily of why it would make sense for Dublin to be better at football than Wexford and Kilkenny would be better than Dublin at Hurling?

That's too simple an idea. While numbers are obviously a factor, I wouldn't say it's as big as you're making it out to be. In my opinion the structure and organisation and the way the sports are managed are much bigger factors than the amount of people playing.

Dots1982

jack presley wrote: »

That's too simple an idea. While numbers are obviously a factor, I wouldn't say it's as big as you're making it out to be. In my opinion the structure and organisation and the way the sports are managed are much bigger factors than the amount of people playing.

OK I wouldn't. I think the single biggest factor is population. The organisation and structure should not differ all that much from county to county given we are a small island and anything new should move quite quickly to new places. The one thing where smaller counties will never be able to compete with larger counties is the amount of people playing the game.

jack presley

Dots1982 wrote: »

The organisation and structure should not differ all that much from county to county

Should not but they do.

ceegee

Dots1982 wrote: »

OK I wouldn't. I think the single biggest factor is population. The organisation and structure should not differ all that much from county to county given we are a small island and anything new should move quite quickly to new places. The one thing where smaller counties will never be able to compete with larger counties is the amount of people playing the game.

Wexford have twice the number of gaa clubs as Kilkenny, Id be shocked if enough of them were football only to see their hurling population be lower than Kilkenny. Yet look at their comparative records.

Take a look at the last few years in hurling. Kilkenny, Tipperary and Clare have all won All Irelands off the back of strong underage setups. Likewise Galway and Dublin have seen improved fortunes. The populations of these counties vary widely, but the work put in at underage level doesn't. That is what delivers success.

salmocab

After spending 40 odd minutes trawling thru this thread I'm wondering why do Leitrim keep getting mentioned? If every county except Leitrim was to be split in two then they still wouldn't be next to near playing football in september(not knocking Leitrim by the way). The problem with the Leinster championship is not that Dublin are too strong its that the other counties are currently weaker, the same could be said for all the provincial championships in both codes barring MHC and UFC. The real debate should be about changing the structures of the whole championship which in reality for the stronger counties doesn't start till quarter final stage. Dublin have done immense work over the last decade especially at underage level in both codes and I'm sure that other county boards are looking at the systems they have put in place and are trying to copy them. Splitting a county based on a large population is a ridiculous idea, where do you draw the line? should we have a team for say every 30000 people based on the constituencies for the dail because that system seems to work a treat.

coolisin

Have I missed something over the last 30years, but Dublin one of the most successful teams because of a few Leinster titles.

We are papering over the facts Kildare where only beaten by a free kick in 2011, Wexford by a couple points in 2011 and 12.

But these counties are weak?
Meath and Kildare this year ran out of steam end of, if their fitness was maintained for 70 mins they'd of won.

I stopped reading a few pages back but I remember travelling to Wexford, and Portlaoise twice this year to support Dublin.

I like the hurlers as an example, people wanted to complain about Kilkenny being too good, but nobody could really find a reason to punish them, poor reffing decisions where mentioned, their tough rough play.

Instead the other counties got on with it and adapted.

Split a county up, sure but only if Limerick, Cork and Galway follow suit.

People saying money money money, then everything would be sorted.
Underage structure and coaching is where to start.

And to point out this year, both under 21 teams knocked out in the first round.

You know I like Kilkenny they took there beating with sportsman ship this year, the Kilkenny fans around me where clapping the dubs and wishing us well, nothing about how much money was being pumped in, or where all the jobs are.

In a few years time you could have a great young Kildare, Meath or Wicklow team with the population increases they have gotten due to the families commuting.

Leinster rugby are pushing hard in getting young players interested, so are the FAI.

Dublin will also have a high population of non nationals who have zero interest in GAA and have no interest in sending there kids to the gaa camps.

prospect

Dots1982, you yourself have admitted at least twice in this thread that population is not the major contributor, in relation to one of the Ulster counties you stated that religion superseded population and in relation to hurling you stated that participation rates outweigh population.


Now what would be a more valid argument is that larger counties are more likely to have success in both codes. But even then, it is only a small factor in the overall equation for success.


I heard that the biggest Cúl Camps of the year was in a town in Kildare this year. Interesting if true, as Kildare is well down the list of counties by population.

Oasis_Dublin

Amazing that a certain follower of Kildare has chosen to resurrect a thread that had died before I went on my holidays. Why are people still paying attention to him?

PRAF

prospect wrote: »

Dots1982, you yourself have admitted at least twice in this thread that population is not the major contributor, in relation to one of the Ulster counties you stated that religion superseded population and in relation to hurling you stated that participation rates outweigh population.


Now what would be a more valid argument is that larger counties are more likely to have success in both codes. But even then, it is only a small factor in the overall equation for success.


I heard that the biggest Cúl Camps of the year was in a town in Kildare this year. Interesting if true, as Kildare is well down the list of counties by population.

The indicators of success probably include all of the following (and perhaps many more besides)

- Population
- Participation rates / Tradition
- Structures / Coaching
- Investment in facilities, coaches, etc.
- Overall health of the club scene in the county
- Specialisation in either hurling or football

Which ones are the more important is a matter of opinion. Clearly Dots1982 feels that population is the most important of them. I can see his point. The overall size of the population will give the total pool of players. Participation rates will then drive the total number of available players. After that, structures, coaching, etc. will determine how good your senior team is.

You could have the best structures, coaching, facilities, etc but if you just don't have the players then you'll never be successful.

For me, population will never be an argument for weakening an existing county. However, it could be used as an argument for justifying a request from two or more counties to combine their resources.

I've yet to hear anybody putting together a valid reason (except for the fact it's always been done this way) why some of the least populated / successful counties couldn't combine their resources to compete in the championship if that is what they wanted to do.

Duckworth_Luas

prospect wrote: »

I heard that the biggest Cúl Camps of the year was in a town in Kildare this year. Interesting if true, as Kildare is well down the list of counties by population.

Of the 26 southern counties Kildare is ranked 4th in terms of population. Only Dublin, Cork and Galway are bigger.

Oasis_Dublin

That huge population puts a huge amount of money back into the GAA which is then distributed to other counties.

Dublin has had a population advantage over all other counties since the beginning of (GAA) time and it has only won 8 football All-Irelands in the last 50 years, with 0 in hurling. That's about a 8% strike rate overall.

This thread really should be closed.

Dots1982

PRAF wrote: »

I've yet to hear anybody putting together a valid reason (except for the fact it's always been done this way) why some of the least populated / successful counties couldn't combine their resources to compete in the championship if that is what they wanted to do.

Reason 1: Where would they train? Longford lads going to Roscommon to train wouldn't be too happy.

reason 2: Makes playing for your county harder, less lads will get to play county football.

PRAF

Dots1982 wrote: »

Reason 1: Where would they train? Longford lads going to Roscommon to train wouldn't be too happy.

Is this any harder than guys from West Cork going to train in pairc ui chaoimh? Or guys from North Mayo training in Castlebar? Or guys based in Dublin who go back to their counties to train?

Those are mere logistics that could be easily worked out if the will was there to do so

Dots1982 wrote: »

reason 2: Makes playing for your county harder, less lads will get to play county football.

True, but is the objective that we want as many people as possible to play county football regardless of their standard?

I'm not suggesting forcing this on anyone. I'm only suggesting that if two counties wish to do so, with the agreement of the players and county boards, that they shouldn't be stopped from doing so.

For me, it is certainly better to contemplate allowing counties to combine their resources rather than forcing Dublin to split against its will

prospect

Duckworth_Luas wrote: »

Of the 26 southern counties Kildare is ranked 4th in terms of population. Only Dublin, Cork and Galway are bigger.

5th actually, Limerick also has a higher population.

Not sure why you decided to exclude the NI counties, 3 of which also have larger populations.

Duckworth_Luas

prospect wrote: »

5th actually, Limerick also has a higher population.

Not sure why you decided to exclude the NI counties, 3 of which also have larger populations.

Kildare's population exceeds Limerick's by 20000 meaning Kildare is ranked fourth of the counties that we can compare directly, hardly well down the list of counties by population.

AGC

Can't believe this thread is still open. This article is probably already on here but found it summed up the reaction well

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-football/eamonn-sweeney-gutsy-dubs-deserve-better-29618498.html