European Union to order changes if they don't like Budget

shanered

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/european-commission-could-demand-changes-to-ireland-s-budget-next-month-1.1527329

Seems like our Government doesn't have any power any more over our situation, its a bit scary that our economic future is at the mercy of Brussels, no amount of complaining outside the Dail will affect the lads n lasses in Brussels.

Looks like Austerity is here to stay if I'm to make an educated guess, anybody else have any interesting views or comments on this story?

thebman

From the article:

The commission will then produce an opinion on the budgets by mid-November, with the euro group signing off on the budgetary plans on November 22nd.

If it is only an opinion then they can't demand anything. Just make recommendations.

I don't recall giving them the power to demand changes to our budget.

_Kaiser_

thebman wrote: »

From the article:


If it is only an opinion then they can't demand anything. Just make recommendations.

I don't recall giving them the power to demand changes to our budget.

We all know "recommendations" from the EU effectively mean instructions - that will be no doubt carried out to the letter by our Good European leader, in the same way that Ireland was "urged" to accept the bail-out.

Not sure how this is a story though after last year when leaks showed the EU got a look at our budget before we did.

We already know the EU is fond of the "go back and do it again" approach if Ireland turns in an unwanted result. This is no different.

It does help make my case that Irish "democracy" is a sham - and an expensive one at that! - so yay I guess

Mongfinder General

Income in 2013 will be €36-38 billion.

Social Welfare Expenditure will be €20 billion.

Elephant in the room.

Sea Sharp

It's a good thing. It allows the government to make the harsh unpopular measures (social welfare cutbacks) whilst being able to point the blame at the EU.

_Kaiser_

Mongfinder General wrote: »

Income in 2013 will be €36-38 billion.

Social Welfare Expenditure will be €20 billion.

Elephant in the room.

OK, this isn't directed at you personally as it's a common enough attitude here, but I personally am sick to my back teeth on this forum of this harping on about the social welfare budget as if everyone who has been made redundant in the last few years is somehow to blame for the mismanagement of the country's finances over the past 15/20 years. Incidentally most of the people that some reckon "their" taxes are paying for, are in fact merely getting back what they themselves paid into the system while they worked (a little fact that always seems to be overlooked in this argument).

Btw.. just in case anyone thinks this is a "dole head" rant, I'm currently working and have been since I left college (save for most of 2010 when I too was made redundant), but I would rather "my" taxes go to supporting those (genuinely) in need than be pissed away to keep the gravy flowing at the top or to pay off quality bankers like the Anglo lads or their EU counterparts.

Yes there are the "lifers" that should be identified and cut off, and the ancillary benefits need to be reviewed (such as automatic entitlement to free travel and medical cards for pensioners as but one example) as is happening, and the number of people claiming disability could stand a review, but to suggest that slashing payments to those who are most affected by cuts will magically fix everything is just completely wrong.

The real elephant is how this farce continues or why we're paying debts that were never ours at all - but it's not really.. Paddy does love his "status" and "begrudgery" in equal measure... or maybe it's just Stockholm Syndrome at this stage? Hence why this time it's (again) the employed vs the unemployed, but fear not.. the private vs public vs union worker in-fighting will no doubt be along soon again too.

hmmm

Considering the state of Irish politicians I'd be happier if the EU took over our budget entirely.

Tigerandahalf

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

The real elephant is how this farce continues or why we're paying debts that were never ours at all - but it's not really.. Paddy does love his "status" and "begrudgery" in equal measure... or maybe it's just Stockholm Syndrome at this stage? Hence why this time it's (again) the employed vs the unemployed, but fear not.. the private vs public vs union worker in-fighting will no doubt be along soon again too.

I think that is very true. However, before there is any debt writeoff the budget has to be balanced. Not until then will we have any power to push the ECB for debt writeoff. However balancing the budget through austerity alone is hammering many people who had no part in this whole fiasco.

zootroid

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

OK, this isn't directed at you personally as it's a common enough attitude here, but I personally am sick to my back teeth on this forum of this harping on about the social welfare budget as if everyone who has been made redundant in the last few years is somehow to blame for the mismanagement of the country's finances over the past 15/20 years. Incidentally most of the people that some reckon "their" taxes are paying for, are in fact merely getting back what they themselves paid into the system while they worked (a little fact that always seems to be overlooked in this argument).

Btw.. just in case anyone thinks this is a "dole head" rant, I'm currently working and have been since I left college (save for most of 2010 when I too was made redundant), but I would rather "my" taxes go to supporting those (genuinely) in need than be pissed away to keep the gravy flowing at the top or to pay off quality bankers like the Anglo lads or their EU counterparts.

Yes there are the "lifers" that should be identified and cut off, and the ancillary benefits need to be reviewed (such as automatic entitlement to free travel and medical cards for pensioners as but one example) as is happening, and the number of people claiming disability could stand a review, but to suggest that slashing payments to those who are most affected by cuts will magically fix everything is just completely wrong.

The real elephant is how this farce continues or why we're paying debts that were never ours at all - but it's not really.. Paddy does love his "status" and "begrudgery" in equal measure... or maybe it's just Stockholm Syndrome at this stage? Hence why this time it's (again) the employed vs the unemployed, but fear not.. the private vs public vs union worker in-fighting will no doubt be along soon again too.

There are 435,000 on the live register. If all those people were taking home the full employment benefit of 188 euro per week (which they are not), this would add up 4.25 billion per year. So what is the other 16 billion spent on? I have no issue with people seeking unemployment benefit, but our social welfare system must need serious reform if the main item people associate it with only accounts for a quarter of the expenditure, and also the fact that it takes up over half the tax revenue.

Secondly, we are still running a primary deficit, ie excluding interest payments, our expenditure is still higher than the tax we take in. So while paying off bank debts are infuriating, we would still be running a deficit even if we didn't bail out the banks.

In my opinion a country shouldn't be borrowing money to pay its day to day expenses. Borrowing should only be permitted for capital expenditure. But I think I'm in the minority with that viewpoint

Geuze

Mongfinder General wrote: »

Income in 2013 will be €36 billion

Please note that this is incorrect.

See Govt Finance data here:

http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/gfsa/governmentfinancestatisticsapril2013/#.UjZFHdK-qrw

Govt reveniue is 55 bn approx.

Geuze

zootroid wrote: »

There are 435,000 on the live register. If all those people were taking home the full employment benefit of 188 euro per week (which they are not), this would add up 4.25 billion per year. So what is the other 16 billion spent on? I have no issue with people seeking unemployment benefit, but our social welfare system must need serious reform if the main item people associate it with only accounts for a quarter of the expenditure, and also the fact that it takes up over half the tax revenue

Please note that unemployment payments are not, and never have been, the main part of SW exp.

The biggest SW exp is Child Benefit and State Pensions.

Also please note that Govt revenue is approx. 55-56bn, while DSP exp is approx. 20 bn.

Jumboman

Ireland should just tell the EU to F**K off or we'll crash the euro.

View

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

We all know "recommendations" from the EU effectively mean instructions - (

The EU noted that we were overly dependent on property related taxes for our Government income and recommended we rectify that - how much heed did we pay to those "instructions"?

View

Jumboman wrote: »

Ireland should just tell the EU to F**K off or we'll crash the euro.

We have about as much chance of crashing the Rouble as the Euro.

Jumboman

View wrote: »

We have about as much chance of crashing the Rouble as the Euro.

How so ? at the very least we could talk it down that world harm the markets.

Also the central bank could create billions to pay off our debts.

shanered

Was just watching Barrasso giving a speech about the EU's problem is a political one and that we should stay the course etc etc...
Really putting the gun to our head in this situation, he talks about financial goals, but what I feel the point is.how these financial targets are really effecting society, with huge youth unemployment across Europe it is.clear that even our Euro paymasters havent got the ability to sort this mess out.
I think what was said by our MEP is that 24/27 member states have a worse debt to GDP ratio than last year.
These.guys.are.not just running us into the ground, their running a good deal of the member states into the ground with their economic policies.
Along with the fact.that Ireland will have one less MEP in a reconfiguration of the European parliment just.seems like we have less.and less say by the day on how our country is to be run.

kona

shanered wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/european-commission-could-demand-changes-to-ireland-s-budget-next-month-1.1527329

Seems like our Government doesn't have any power any more over our situation, its a bit scary that our economic future is at the mercy of Brussels, no amount of complaining outside the Dail will affect the lads n lasses in Brussels.

Looks like Austerity is here to stay if I'm to make an educated guess, anybody else have any interesting views or comments on this story?

About time, country is pissing away far too much money still. And I'm sick of funding others to go on the piss when I've to work.

View

Jumboman wrote: »

How so ? at the very least we could talk it down that world harm the markets.

Markets ignore us unless they want to savage us. We are very small fry in financial terms.

Jumboman wrote: »

Also the central bank could create billions to pay off our debts.

Not without breeching EU law it can't and you do have the monies to pay the ECJ's fines we'd need to pay as a result?

You do also realise that the other member states can just HINT that won't accept our extra "fake" Euro from us and our banking system will start to implode?

spank_inferno

Didnt part of the lase EU treaty include a proviso whereas some part of the EU can run the rule over a members national budget??

If so... Is this not the stability treaty performing as expexted.

Which we did vote for.

_Kaiser_

kona wrote: »

About time, country is pissing away far too much money still. And I'm sick of funding others to go on the piss when I've to work.

Oh please. That's a ridiculous argument. As I noted above, the "dole heads" were there long before the recession and are not reflective of the vast majority of current welfare claimants who have enough trouble paying all their bills for another week, never mind "going on the piss".
That's not to say that said "dole heads" need to be identified and dealt with but I suppose this is an example of that hipster "straw man" thing that seems to be the favourite term on Boards these days as opposed to making a coherent counter-argument.

spank_inferno wrote: »

Didnt part of the lase EU treaty include a proviso whereas some part of the EU can run the rule over a members national budget??

If so... Is this not the stability treaty performing as expected.

Which we did vote for.

If by "vote for" you mean being forced to go back and give them the answer they wanted, then yes I suppose so.

Not really a good sign though when the original "will of the people" is ignored because the powers that be didn't get the answer they wanted. It reduces our so-called democratic process to mere rubber-stamping of decisions that were already made and agreed upon by our "betters"

mariaalice

shanered wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/european-commission-could-demand-changes-to-ireland-s-budget-next-month-1.1527329

Seems like our Government doesn't have any power any more over our situation, its a bit scary that our economic future is at the mercy of Brussels, no amount of complaining outside the Dail will affect the lads n lasses in Brussels.

Looks like Austerity is here to stay if I'm to make an educated guess, anybody else have any interesting views or comments on this story?

That might be a good thing even though I would be wary of it happening long term, the reason it might be a good thing is that the powers that be in Brussels are less subject to the cultural hegemony that Irish politics is, so therefor you would not get government (of any party) giving in to special pleading to protect there own patch.

Sleepy

Given the level of news we're hearing that the government are thinking of not cutting the full amount recommended by the troika is there anything to be said for a protest to demand they make the full cut and accept that the recommendations they're receiving are from more qualified sources than their own as former teachers, publicans etc.?

Jumboman

View wrote: »

Not without breeching EU law it can't and you do have the monies to pay the ECJ's fines we'd need to pay as a result?

You do also realise that the other member states can just HINT that won't accept our extra "fake" Euro from us and our banking system will start to implode?

If it was done right before the EU copped what was happening the money could be transferred into real assets say 50 to 100 billion. But the government havnt got the balls to do that,

Idbatterim

Given the level of news we're hearing that the government are thinking of not cutting the full amount recommended by the troika is there anything to be said for a protest to demand they make the full cut and accept that the recommendations they're receiving are from more qualified sources than their own as former teachers, publicans etc.?

nail on the head, why bother with all the advisers if they are just ignored? Labour called the previous government reckless and shortsighted, probably feeling a bit hypocritical now Labour hah? sure the election isnt too far away... I know it cant be quantified, but what will the actual cost and perception be, if we now start backing down quickly, because it will sure as hell be more than the compounded 300-600 million plus interest every annum, thats for sure!

How about we make a start by undoing some of FF dirty work (read Berties vote buying here) by bringing thousands back into the tax net and capping welfare? I wont go into the Haddington road agreement or pensioners...

If I were FG I may throw Labour a little slack, but the adjustment certainly wouldnt be going from 3.1 to 2.5 billion. All FG need to do is get us back to the markets at a reasonable rate, make it look like they have made the tough decision for optics and I can see the potential propaganda now... Its a real pity the FG 5 or whatever they are called, dont start a new party. They could then potentially have FG "light"and FG "right" in power, they would be far more fiscally conservative and responsible that anything else out there by a country mile IMO... I dont want to see Labour, SF or FF in power, as things stand, could well be a FF / FG coalition the next time round!!!

View

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

If by "vote for" you mean being forced to go back and give them the answer they wanted, then yes I suppose so.

We weren't forced to do any such thing.

Ireland was in fact an active supporter of these new measures as we voted in favour of them in the Council of Ministers as did 11 out of 12 of our MEPs (if I remember the EP votes correctly). These are measures Ireland wants in place.

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Not really a good sign though when the original "will of the people" is ignored because the powers that be didn't get the answer they wanted. It reduces our so-called democratic process to mere rubber-stamping of decisions that were already made and agreed upon by our "betters"

No will of the people was ignored. The democratic will of the people was that we would approve the relevant EU Treaties (on the Euro, the SGP and the Stability Treaty) and that mandate stands. These new measures which Ireland supports are measures adopted to give effect to those decisions of the electorate.

View

Jumboman wrote: »

If it was done right before the EU copped what was happening the money could be transferred into real assets say 50 to 100 billion. But the government havnt got the balls to do that,

The government has no intention of gambling with the economy on the basis of some pie-in-the-sky idea. There is no legal basis for them to do so either.

I can't see you offering to pay the massive EU fines the ECJ would impose on us for breeching EU law.

Jumboman

View wrote: »

The government has no intention of gambling with the economy on the basis of some pie-in-the-sky idea. There is no legal basis for them to do so either.

I can't see you offering to pay the massive EU fines the ECJ would impose on us for breeching EU law.

EU fines ? I wouldnt give them a cent. The government has already gambled with the economy by giving billions to the banks. Its not pie in the sky the central bank has the ability to create euro currency we should use that to our advantage. Also as long as we are still in the euro the EU will not want our backs to collapse especially since we are the "good boy in the class". We need to start playing hardball.

View

Jumboman wrote: »

EU fines ? I wouldnt give them a cent.

You wouldn't but the government will. The electorate decided we would be bound by decisions of the ECJ. You are now suggesting that the government flout a democratic decision of the electorate as well as the ECJ. How do you think the Supreme Court will rule in that case? The democratic system rests on the rule of law in case you need reminding.

Jumboman wrote: »

ts not pie in the sky the central bank has the ability to create euro currency we should use that to our advantage.

Not according to EU law it doesn't unless the ECB authorises it. The CBI after all is first and foremost now a part of the ESCB and bound by its rules and regulations.

Jumboman wrote: »

Also as long as we are still in the euro the EU will not want our backs to collapse especially since we are the "good boy in the class". We need to start playing hardball.

Any attempt at "hardball" and we are on our own to face the financial markets. The other member states will walk away at the merest hint of hardball as it will rightly be perceived as attempted blackmail.

There is no clause in EU law that means a member state cannot go bankrupt or be allowed to go bankrupt. Given a choice between blackmail and seeing the effects of another member state go bankrupt, the other member states will sit back and watch what happens. We didn't exactly rush to throw ourselves under the train for Cyprus when it looked for a short while like they actually might go bankrupt due to political indecisiveness, did we?

Jumboman

View wrote: »

You wouldn't but the government will. The electorate decided we would be bound by decisions of the ECJ. You are now suggesting that the government flout a democratic decision of the electorate as well as the ECJ. How do you think the Supreme Court will rule in that case? The democratic system rests on the rule of law in case you need reminding.

The politicians were elected to work in the best interests of the people. Which do you think the general public would prefer give money to the EU or to schools and hospitals ? The "democratic decision" of the electorate was only after we were asked to vote again in two referendums hows that democratic ? you can get any result you want if you keep asking the same question over an over again. Thats democracy EU style.

Not according to EU law it doesn't unless the ECB authorises it. The CBI after all is first and foremost now a part of the ESCB and bound by its rules and regulations.

I dont care what the EU says about anything the question should be what is good for Ireland. Germany and Frnace have no problem breaking EU law when it suits them.

Any attempt at "hardball" and we are on our own to face the financial markets. The other member states will walk away at the merest hint of hardball as it will rightly be perceived as attempted blackmail.

That is such a defeatist attitude in order words we should bend over and take it up the arse from the EU.

There is no clause in EU law that means a member state cannot go bankrupt or be allowed to go bankrupt.

If we went bankrupt it would destabilize the euro currency especially since we are been hailed as one of the only successfully "bailout" countries.

Given a choice between blackmail and seeing the effects of another member state go bankrupt, the other member states will sit back and watch what happens. We didn't exactly rush to throw ourselves under the train for Cyprus when it looked for a short while like they actually might go bankrupt due to political indecisiveness, did we?

They blackmailed us so why shouldnt we "blackmail" them or play them at their own game ?

_Kaiser_

Jumboman makes a lot of sense IMO

Like it or not, the EU has shown that it's more than happy to break it's own rules to suit the interests of the larger states and no matter how you try to spin it.. asking a country to "go back and do it again" because a referendum didn't produce a wanted result is not democratic is any shape or form.

You can't claim that we all signed up for it when the only reason we did was because we were forced to under threat of sanctions, hell and brimstone and what not (YES for Jobs anyone? Still waiting on that one...)

What about coercing the Irish state into accepting a "bailout" that has proven disastrous for our national economy, youth and sold our children into economic servitude ... while those at the top who are responsible for the mess escape unscathed - anyone who doubts this should have another listen to the Anglo Tapes.

Like I said previously, I can only assume that the EU supporters on this forum are suffering from Stockholm Syndrome. The only other conclusion I can draw is that they're either blind to the consequences of this Austerity-for-Some policy we've been forced to follow, or perhaps just (in typically Irish fashion) unconcerned because it hasn't (yet!) personally affected them to any great degree. I don't have to suffer racism to know that it's wrong, nor do I need to be assaulted to know that's wrong too!

_Kaiser_

View wrote: »

You wouldn't but the government will. The electorate decided we would be bound by decisions of the ECJ. You are now suggesting that the government flout a democratic decision of the electorate as well as the ECJ. How do you think the Supreme Court will rule in that case? The democratic system rests on the rule of law in case you need reminding.

Who said we have a democracy? Oh sure on the surface perhaps but thanks to the Whip system and sanctions against those who go against it, we've seen that TDs are really only there to "make up the numbers" these days.

The real power (whatever the EU has left us) is centralised around the cabinet table. Given the fondness on Boards for referring to RTE as Pravda (not inaccurate either), maybe we should go the whole way and refer to the Cabinet as the Politburo.

Not according to EU law it doesn't unless the ECB authorises it. The CBI after all is first and foremost now a part of the ESCB and bound by its rules and regulations.

Let's never lose sight of the fact that all these institutions that are so cherished on this forum are there to serve the will of the people.. not the other way around! Anything can be changed given enough support.

Any attempt at "hardball" and we are on our own to face the financial markets. The other member states will walk away at the merest hint of hardball as it will rightly be perceived as attempted blackmail.

Oh ok, so the EU can threaten to cut us off if we don't accept their "bailout" and threaten us with doom and despair if we don't vote the way they want (I'm sure they'd be happy to remove that option entirely if they could), but god forbid Ireland did what is in OUR own interests eh?

There is no clause in EU law that means a member state cannot go bankrupt or be allowed to go bankrupt. Given a choice between blackmail and seeing the effects of another member state go bankrupt, the other member states will sit back and watch what happens. We didn't exactly rush to throw ourselves under the train for Cyprus when it looked for a short while like they actually might go bankrupt due to political indecisiveness, did we?

Really? Cause as I recall it the same tactics were employed there too to keep the gravy train rolling in Brussels. I don't remember the actual citizens being too happy though! But that doesn't matter I suppose as long as the EU survives.