Votes for Irish Citizens Abroad

munchkin_utd

Godge wrote: »

So, you would first of all have to be an emigrant during your own life (even if you emigrated at six months old?) but also if you lived in Northern Ireland, you would lose your vote. Have I got the proposal right?

thats actually the way the german vote for citizens abroad works.

Only those with a residence record of at least 6months within the borders of the country at some stage in their lives can vote.
This excludes swathes of folks who might have a german mum/ dad/ grandparent from being eligible to vote.

Theres "german" areas of france/ belgium/ north italy and dare I say austria which were once parts of the greater german nation, and there are german citizens there (especially in north of italy) through decendancy who feel as german as the folks in the country proper BUT they wouldnt have a vote as they have never lived in Germany.

Its actually a proper state of affairs as indeed (agreeing somewhat with previous posters) how could someone make an informed choice in a dail election/ bundestag election if they have little interest or background or connection with the running of the 26counties/ german country.

oscarBravo

FTA69 wrote: »

It's addressing the fact that Irish emigrants are disenfranchised from their country of origin, something that can't be said for the likes of the London Irish etc considering they aren't disenfranchised in any way.

It's contrary to the view that you have a right to vote because you're a citizen. If you're going to distinguish between classes of citizen for the purposes of letting people vote, it makes more sense to simply let residents vote.

Similarly a "tier" exists already whereby emigrants are disenfranchised upon their departure...

They're not a different class of citizen, though. My brother can't vote for the same reason the 3rd-generation Irish-American in Detroit can't vote: they don't live here.

View

munchkin_utd wrote: »

Theres "german" areas of france/ belgium/ north italy and dare I say austria which were once parts of the greater german nation, and there are german citizens there (especially in north of italy) through decendancy who feel as german as the folks in the country proper

A lot of those would never have had German citizenship nor would they claim it as they are German speakers not German.

A bit like a small island in NW Europe where most people speak English :-)

Painted Pony

FTA69 wrote: »

The notion that Irish elections would be "swamped" by votes coming from abroad is scare-mongering nonsense that hasn't transpired in any of the 115 countries that uphold the rights of their citizens to vote from abroad.

There is a unique problem with Ireland of course, which is to do with all of our friends North of the border. You say that the campaign to extend rights to ex-pats is not proposing to extend it to Northern Ireland. But were this campaign to succeed it would be very difficult to stop it subsequently being extended there.

How long do you think a state of affairs could continue where the only Irish people who could not vote in Irish elections were the ones …. living in Ireland???

Which goes back to our unique problem. Certainly, it would be something of a challenge to organise the general Irish Diaspora in to a potent political lobby. But Sinn Fein are an all-Ireland party. The could (and I think quite effectively would) organize their supporters in the North to boast their support in the South.

FTA69 wrote: »

If anything the fact that foreign nationals aren't allowed to vote in Ireland despite paying tax simply highlights the other erroneous notion that voting is in any way connected with taxation.

So you are citing the fact that our current electoral arrangements are as they are, as evidence that an alternative would be erroneous? Giving the argument you are trying to make here, I think you might find a logical flaw in this reasoning!

Godge

Godge wrote: »

My views on this are quite simple. If you don't pay your income tax here, you shouldn't have a vote in saying what the level of income tax should be.

They can have a vote in local, European or Presidential elections but not in Dail elections or referenda.

By that logic shouldn`t you get more votes if you pay more income tax

paul71

paul71 wrote: »

If you add it all up the figures would show an electorate of about 6.75 million with about 1/3 actually living in Ireland.

That would be awesome, the voters have been foolish enough for the past 90 years. Those are the kind of figures that could lead to a real shake up.

Godge

Deleted User wrote: »

By that logic shouldn`t you get more votes if you pay more income tax

My point has been misinterpreted a few times and maybe I didn't put it clearly enough.

If you want to vote in Ireland, you should be an Irish citizen and resident for income tax purposes in Ireland. That doesn't mean you only get a vote if you pay tax, it means you only get a vote if you are resident for taxes here - just because you are resident doesn't mean you pay anything.

So the likes of Denis O'Brien can f**k off if he thinks he can have a vote in our elections.

Godge

Painted Pony wrote: »

Which goes back to our unique problem. Certainly, it would be something of a challenge to organise the general Irish Diaspora in to a potent political lobby. But Sinn Fein are an all-Ireland party. The could (and I think quite effectively would) organize their supporters in the North to boast their support in the South.

Yes, I can see how they would do that. Probably work to ensure that their supporters North of the border have a vote on both sides of the Border in any referendum on Irish unity too.

The Corinthian

As an Irish expat, I think it almost entirely a daft idea.

To begin with as an expat you do lose contact, more correctly are out of sync with Ireland. The Internet may help, but Ireland does not stop changing the moment you wave goodbye and even within a few years attitudes in Ireland change enough for you to notice that you're no longer as 'Irish' as you once were.

Then there's the question of the diaspora. There's an estimated one million Irish-born people living abroad today - that's a pretty big voting group to add to the books all of a sudden. And what of their children? And grand-children? How many Irish citizens are on the books who've never even lived in Ireland and just happen to have the passport?

Then let's not forget all those citizens up north. I know the parties in the Republic leave a lot to be desired, but take a look at the guys these keep on voting for.

And seriously, what's the point to my voting? Because the current government is or isn't doing a good job? How would I know? Or taxes are too high? So I believe, but I don't pay Irish taxes, given I don't live there.

However, I did say it's almost entirely a daft idea, which means that I can see some merits. As an expat abroad, I am still dependant on certain policies - a simple example is embassy and consular representation and the protection of my rights as an Irish citizen. As such I wouldn't think some representation, such as what is done by Italy, would be a bad idea, but any integration of the diaspora into the current constituency model would be insane.

Given that, if the only reason that such representation was introduced was to use it as an excuse to introduce the taxation of expats, then they can stick it.

guillespe

It is also the case that most Irish emigrants hope to return at some stage and as such they fundamentally have a stake in the type of country that Ireland is or hopes to become. Lastly, it is also the natural extension of the current government platitudes about "engaging the diaspora" (or our money) in shaping the future of Ireland.

I agree with your sentiments,and i think this is also a very good idea,after all the irish dispoara have been failed by the government at some point.

To have emigration on the CV of any political party is a massive failure,and we should really be looking to government when apportioning blame here.


I think that the irish dispoara should have recourse on this and to be enabled to vote on the future of ireland,as they have insight that we do not.

The insight being how ireland may compare to the countries they are living in now.

The Corinthian

guillespe wrote: »

I think that the irish dispoara should have recourse on this and to be enabled to vote on the future of ireland,as they have insight that we do not.

We already have recourse on this; lost tax revenue. In many cases forever.

guillespe

The irish that are leaving IS lost tax revenue,how exactly does that fit in with recourse,im not sure i understand what you are saying..

If the lost irish generations are to have recourse they should be empowered with the vote,and im sure they would appreciate and use their vote wisely instead of voting in the same coalition of FF,FG,LAB,like we eejits have been doing.

Even after all the Fianna fail and bertie scandals we still voted them back in again ..

We irish keep voting in populist parties and until that changes - we will get more of the same.

oppenheimer1

worded wrote: »

Well irish people outside the country can hardly vote in a worse guberment than the present population has done time after time

Yes they could. For example if the franchise for presidential elections was extended to all overseas citizens, we would most likely have a President McGuinness in the Aras. Given the actual outcome of the election, this is something which would have gone against the wishes of the the current residents of the state.

The idea of extending the franchise for elections for overseas irish beyond some sort of tokenistic gesture is absurd. People who don't live here would not have to live with the consequences of their choices. Overseas votes would likely give rise to extreme nationalism or republicanism in the Dail, as you'll find many overseas citizens have rather romantic notions about the politics of the "auld sod".

I would be in favour of having an emigrant voice in the Seanad. Certainly it should be limited as the risk of giving real power to people without "skin in the game" is daft.

Grudaire

guillespe wrote: »

The insight being how ireland may compare to the countries they are living in now.

Oh stop the Ireland loathing nonsense, Ireland has good and bad points, as does every country.

Given the crazy politics in America and many other countries you're deluded if you think leaving Ireland means you're more likely to vote sensibly (America having a large proportion of emigrants)

The Corinthian

guillespe wrote: »

The irish that are leaving IS lost tax revenue,how exactly does that fit in with recourse,im not sure i understand what you are saying..

Expats are already exercising our democratic rights after a fashion; we're voting with our feet. And it is the consequences of this that are the recourse, the price, that the political parties must pay, especially given that most of those emigrating are the more qualified, and thus higher earning citizens.

If the lost irish generations are to have recourse they should be empowered with the vote,and im sure they would appreciate and use their vote wisely instead of voting in the same coalition of FF,FG,LAB,like we eejits have been doing.

How on Earth do you know that? What would an Irish citizen who's lived out of Ireland for thirty years know, beyond the Internet, of what a mess these parties have made? What would an Irish citizen who's never lived in Ireland know of them at all?

Even after five years I'm acutely aware that I'm out of touch with much of what is going on in Ireland and my knowledge of who's in the game is fuzzy at best. And I'm a lot better informed than most.

If anything, expats would be more likely to vote for the familiar; the guys we remember, rather than new parties we've never heard of. Have you seen how conservative some Irish emigrant communities are compared to Ireland? It's not in Dublin gays are banned from the St Patrick's day parade, after all.

We irish keep voting in populist parties and until that changes - we will get more of the same.

Honestly, Ireland is going to continue voting for the same populist parties anyway. Do you really want to introduce the parish pump to an international constituency that outnumbers actual resident citizens?

As for "engaging the diaspora", we already get that; it's called 'The Gathering'. Most transparent piece of pan-handling ever - "Ahh, sure why don't ye come over and spend some of that fine foreign coin you've made on your fifth cousins twelve times removed?"

expectationlost

one of the reports pointed to the by the convention experts http://www.idea.int/publications/voting_from_abroad/loader.cfm?csmodule=security/getfile&pageid=23636 has this chart

guillespe

guillespe wrote: »

I agree with your sentiments,and i think this is also a very good idea,after all the irish dispoara have been failed by the government at some point.

To have emigration on the CV of any political party is a massive failure,and we should really be looking to government when apportioning blame here.


I think that the irish dispoara should have recourse on this and to be enabled to vote on the future of ireland,as they have insight that we do not.

The insight being how ireland may compare to the countries they are living in now.

I doubt my living in China really provides much insight into things, although I suspect after almost 5 years here, I probably understand China better than Ireland. But then I never really understood the Irish political system all that well when I did live in Ireland. (All 30 years of that). Pretty much ,regardless of who was voted in they did what they wished and there was no realistic punishment of their failures. (The architects of the economic meltdown were, and never will be touched in any substantial way)

In general, I would suggest that this diaspora or expats in general should not have any real voting privileges. Not because we are out of touch. It's relatively easy to find out the current situation from reading a dozen articles or reading a variety of posts on boards. In all honesty, I doubt many voters I know in Ireland now, know much more than I could from a few hours research online. I could even go to the extent of canvassing the opinions of friends remaining in Ireland. Just because I'm outside doesn't mean I'm cut off.

Rather, I would agree with others here and say that we have made our own gesture by leaving. I probably won't return to Ireland because I've lost complete trust in successive governments during my lifetime. In many ways living in a country where I have no rights is easier. I don't have the illusion that my vote will change anything.(a pretty common feeling from other Irish friends here in xian)

However, I would throw something to those that have objections because we don't pay taxes. I pay quite a bit of money in taxes due to ever increasing property related taxes, taxes on income (rent), transfer of money into Ireland (to help pay my mortgage and other costs in having a house), solicitors fees, etc. To say that just because we are not in Ireland doesn't mean we aren't paying taxes is naive. And I do have a financial interest in knowing some nutcase government doesn't decide to seize my property or increase taxes (even though I'm not making a profit, and am still in negative equity on the bloody thing)

So while I don't really want to be able to vote, I can definitely see how others would want to be able to do so.

I firmly believe that if you made the similar need to register to vote (like the need to do so with the registrar) whilst abroad, most people wouldn't simply because it being Ireland, we would probably have to pay through the nose to do it, and it would be mishandled anyway. While I feel that Irish business people can be excellent, I have very little faith that any government could implement anything new without massive cost, some degree of corruption, and bad management. But that's probably just me. I'm not claiming that for other people.

djpbarry

Deleted User wrote: »

In many ways living in a country where I have no rights is easier. I don't have the illusion that my vote will change anything.(a pretty common feeling from other Irish friends here in xian)

I'm sure all the political dissidents in China who have been imprisoned without trial would be interested to here your views on Irish democracy.

djpbarry

djpbarry wrote: »

I'm sure all the political dissidents in China who have been imprisoned without trial would be interested to here your views on Irish democracy.

Am I actually wrong to feel that way about Irish Politics?

I didn't say anything about Chinese politics so I doubt they would care about my view... Of yours tbh.

djpbarry

Deleted User wrote: »

Am I actually wrong to feel that way about Irish Politics?

In my opinion, yes. The Irish electorate have the power to change Irish politics if they really want to, but either national priorities take a back seat to local issues or, more often, people just don't care.

Deleted User wrote: »

I didn't say anything about Chinese politics so I doubt they would care about my view... Of yours tbh.

You alluded to the fact that voting in China is, at present, relatively pointless given it is a single party state. You implied that voting in Ireland is just as pointless, an absolutely ridiculous comparison.

The Corinthian

djpbarry wrote: »

In my opinion, yes. The Irish electorate have the power to change Irish politics if they really want to, but either national priorities take a back seat to local issues or, more often, people just don't care.

Having lived in Ireland most of my life, but having also lived and experienced cultures in other countries (as I am now), my immediate thought on reading your post was that suggesting the Irish electorate have the power to change Irish politics if they really want to is a bit like suggesting that a psychotic can stop being crazy.

As Brendan Behan once put it; "other people have a nationality. The Irish and the Jews have a psychosis".

Also - you also removed yourself from being a member of said electorate; unless you're not Irish or are living abroad yourself, then you really should have said "we", not "they", and such a Freudian slip is actually part of the reason why the Irish electorate does not change things. It's always someone else's fault.

You alluded to the fact that voting in China is, at present, relatively pointless given it is a single party state. You implied that voting in Ireland is just as pointless, an absolutely ridiculous comparison.

There's not a lot of difference between a monopoly and an oligopoly.

Or can you tell the difference between Coke and Pepsi? I can't.

djpbarry

djpbarry wrote: »

In my opinion, yes. The Irish electorate have the power to change Irish politics if they really want to, but either national priorities take a back seat to local issues or, more often, people just don't care.

Gotcha. Agreed. The electorate during my time here didn't care enough to change anything, myself included. I felt powerless to change anything even I'd wanted to. Which is probably what other people felt.

You alluded to the fact that voting in China is, at present, relatively pointless given it is a single party state. You implied that voting in Ireland is just as pointless, an absolutely ridiculous comparison.

No. I didn't.

Where did I say that? Forget alluding to anything. Where did I say it, because my posts are usually quite blunt (if I want to say something)

djpbarry

The Corinthian wrote: »

Having lived in Ireland most of my life, but having also lived and experienced cultures in other countries (as I am now), my immediate thought on reading your post was that suggesting the Irish electorate have the power to change Irish politics if they really want to is a bit like suggesting that a psychotic can stop being crazy.

Only if you believe there is something inherently “wrong” with Irish people (and their ability, or lack thereof, to engage in the democratic process). Personally I think it largely boils down to apathy.

The Corinthian wrote: »

Also - you also removed yourself from being a member of said electorate...

...by moving to London.

The Corinthian wrote: »

There's not a lot of difference between a monopoly and an oligopoly.

That depends on how they’re imposed. The Chinese political system is imposed by the party. In Ireland, the system is imposed by the electorate. Granted, you can argue that the choices on the ballot paper aren’t great, but there’s always a least worst alternative.

djpbarry

Deleted User wrote: »

No. I didn't.

Where did I say that? Forget alluding to anything. Where did I say it, because my posts are usually quite blunt (if I want to say something)

You referred to the “illusion” that your vote can change anything in Ireland? It suggests that democracy in Ireland is inherently flawed. It isn’t. It’s just the way the electorate put it into practice.

The Corinthian

djpbarry wrote: »

Only if you believe there is something inherently “wrong” with Irish people (and their ability, or lack thereof, to engage in the democratic process). Personally I think it largely boils down to apathy.

Well, there is something 'wrong', that much is pretty clear, and in fairness the Irish are not the only nation with this malady, whatever it is.

...by moving to London.

Fair enough - but that's why I included the caveat.

That depends on how they’re imposed. The Chinese political system is imposed by the party. In Ireland, the system is imposed by the electorate. Granted, you can argue that the choices on the ballot paper aren’t great, but there’s always a least worst alternative.

How do you know there isn't in China? Be they members of the same party or same political class, you'll always find a least worst alternative.

clairefontaine

If ex pats could vote, divorce would have come in way way sooner, abortion would be legal, and there would have been a different outcome on the Church sex scandals.

If you look at most Irish ex pats, they tend to vote more liberal in their new countries.

Grudaire

Even in America?

Godge

clairefontaine wrote: »

If ex pats could vote, divorce would have come in way way sooner, abortion would be legal, and there would have been a different outcome on the Church sex scandals.

If you look at most Irish ex pats, they tend to vote more liberal in their new countries.

Gerry Adams would be President and Bono would be Taoiseach and Martin McGuinness Minister for Finance.

The Corinthian

clairefontaine wrote: »

If ex pats could vote, divorce would have come in way way sooner, abortion would be legal, and there would have been a different outcome on the Church sex scandals.

Sure, they'd still be under wraps if the Irish-American vote had a say.

If you look at most Irish ex pats, they tend to vote more liberal in their new countries.

Just ask the gays who can't march in the NYC St Patrick day parade.

ardmacha

If ex pats could vote, divorce would have come in way way sooner, abortion would be legal, and there would have been a different outcome on the Church sex scandals.

That's precisly the problem. These policies should reflect the wishes of the people in Ireland in these matters, not the views of those living elsewhere who do not have live with the outcome of these decisions.