Votes for Irish Citizens Abroad

FTA69

I recently attended a debate in the London Irish Centre hosted by the Labour Party Irish Society which centred around the issue of whether or not Irish citizens abroad should have some sort of vote in Irish elections. Recently there has been a large input into the Constitutional Convention concerning this issue; primarily around the notion of allowing votes for the Presidential elections.

While a vote for the President would be a welcome symbolic acknowledgement of the contribution of the Irish abroad, I personally feel it should go further with either citizens being allowed to vote in their own constituencies or at the very least a separate seat in the Dáil being created for the diaspora. The vast majority of countries around the world, and nearly every country in Europe, currently allows their citizens to exercise their franchise so it isn't a massive shift in politics by any means, rather an alignment into the current electoral norms across the continent. It is also the case that most Irish emigrants hope to return at some stage and as such they fundamentally have a stake in the type of country that Ireland is or hopes to become. Lastly, it is also the natural extension of the current government platitudes about "engaging the diaspora" (or our money) in shaping the future of Ireland.

Any thoughts on this issue?

Here is the website for the group currently campaigning and making submissions to the Constitutional Convention:

http://www.vica.ie/index.php/aboutus

hfallada

Why should people be allowed to vote on issues what will have little or no impact on them? If you live outside Ireland, you probably will make your decision on what the media and family/friends will tell you. Which will probably impact your decision in a bad way.

Ireland is unique in a sense that so many irish citizens live abroad. There is probably a million Irish citizens live abroad. If you were born in Sligo and emigrated as a child 80 years ago. I dont believe you should be allowed to vote.

FTA69

Why should people be allowed to vote on issues what will have little or no impact on them?

Because the vast majority of them want to return to Ireland at some stage. The notion that emigrants have no stake in the future of the country of their origin (and most likely future residence) is flawed, secondly a key element of being a citizen of a particular country is the right to exercise your vote, a situation which is the norm across the rest of the world.

If you live outside Ireland, you probably will make your decision on what the media and family/friends will tell you.

As opposed to voters in Ireland is it? Many Irish people follow events in Ireland very closely and are often as tuned in as anyone within the country itself.

If you were born in Sligo and emigrated as a child 80 years ago.

Most of that older generation contributed vast sums in remittances that kept the country afloat, the 50s generation and those after are as entitled to a say as anyone else.

Godge

FTA69 wrote: »

Because the vast majority of them want to return to Ireland at some stage. The notion that emigrants have no stake in the future of the country of their origin (and most likely future residence) is flawed, secondly a key element of being a citizen of a particular country is the right to exercise your vote, a situation which is the norm across the rest of the world.



As opposed to voters in Ireland is it? Many Irish people follow events in Ireland very closely and are often as tuned in as anyone within the country itself.



Most of that older generation contributed vast sums in remittances that kept the country afloat, the 50s generation and those after are as entitled to a say as anyone else.

My views on this are quite simple. If you don't pay your income tax here, you shouldn't have a vote in saying what the level of income tax should be.

They can have a vote in local, European or Presidential elections but not in Dail elections or referenda.

FTA69

Godge wrote: »

My views on this are quite simple. If you don't pay your income tax here, you shouldn't have a vote in saying what the level of income tax should be.

So we should disenfranchise the unemployed and carers then? Should we give the vote to all the Eastern Europeans in Ireland? After all they're paying income tax?

Cody Pomeray

Godge wrote: »

My views on this are quite simple. If you don't pay your income tax here, you shouldn't have a vote in saying what the level of income tax should be.

Why has income tax been singled out for special mention?

If you don't pay the second home tax (NPPR), does that mean you get no say in what the NPPR should be? Shouldn't large property portfolio owners be able to determine their own liability for tax?

Manach

There will be cost associated with handling these votes. Should this be met by the voters themselves (given the current confiscatory levels of income tax it is impossible to identify which account money goes into), then I'd have no objection as if the state is paying court to the overseas Irish in terms of the Gathering or Investment, they should have a voice in certain elections like the presidental.

View

FTA69 wrote: »

Should we give the vote to all the Eastern Europeans in Ireland? After all they're paying income tax?

We should approach other EU states and propose a reciprocal deal where we give their citizens the vote here if they give Irish citizens living there the vote.

In fact, the referenda that extended the vote to UK citizens allows the Minister here to do just that so it wouldn't require a big change.

clairefontaine

Godge wrote: »

My views on this are quite simple. If you don't pay your income tax here, you shouldn't have a vote in saying what the level of income tax should be.

They can have a vote in local, European or Presidential elections but not in Dail elections or referenda.

This is the same reason women, blacks and non property owners were forbidden to vote.

VinLieger

clairefontaine wrote: »

This is the same reason women, blacks and non property owners were forbidden to vote.

There is no comparison between those cases and citizens living abroad, stop trying to shame people into having a different opinion

Days 298

I wouldn't mind Irish Citizens people abroad voting here only if they had lived in the 26 counties for more than 5/10 years at some stage in their lives.We are different to other countries due to the fact of the whole Northern Ireland situation, a lot citizens that have never lived in the 26 counties ever. People in Northern Ireland would have too much say in a country thats policies would have little effect on them if every passport holder could automatically vote. So expats yes, N.I no.

Just my opinion.

pablomakaveli

I no longer live in Ireland and i happily accept the fact i don't have a vote anymore. I wouldn't feel right voting in elections when the outcome would not affect me.

I don't contribute tax to Ireland and it would also seem unfair to have the same vote as someone who does and is resident.

Grudaire

Too many contentious issues for this issue to be dealt with properly tbh.

Personally it is my opinion that emigrants should not have the vote - or at least not indefinitely like VICA want. After several years people lose any practical link with Ireland. The practical issues with absentee voting is another issue to be addressed.

Indeed I would go as far as to say that people in the North have far more of a link to Ireland and Irish politics will affect them far more. (eg decisions on the boarder) Indeed it is not inconceivable that Ireland is united in our lifetimes.

Black Swan

FTA69 wrote: »

I recently attended a debate in the London Irish Centre hosted by the Labour Party Irish Society which centred around the issue of whether or not Irish citizens abroad should have some sort of vote in Irish elections. Recently there has been a large input into the Constitutional Convention concerning this issue; primarily around the notion of allowing votes for the Presidential elections.

While a vote for the President would be a welcome symbolic acknowledgement of the contribution of the Irish abroad...

Our President has very little power in government, but can make a valuable contribution representing the interests of Ireland about the world. In like manner the many Irish citizens working and schooling abroad can also represent those interests, each contributing in their own small way to Ireland's interests. Extending the vote for President to our citizens overseas, along with the obligation attached to that vote to do something, no matter how small, to promote those Irish interests, may help us beyond what the President (or other officials concerned with international relations, commerce, etc.) can do.

There are approximately 3 million Irish citizen passport holders living abroad. Even if a small percentage of them were linked, encouraged, and coordinated to represent our interests, they may make a difference.

Given the Presidential vote, I can envision a future voluntary organisation, with a web site that links and draws our Irish citizens about-the-world together (e.g., division of boards.ie?). Perhaps DeV can establish contacts with staffers in the President's office to identify Irish interest initiatives that need work beyond our borders, while at the same time discovering ways to reach and organise those many Irish citizens overseas?

I would be in favour of giving the vote for President to our citizens overseas, provided that we remind them that with this vote comes obligations. I would not be in favour of extending their vote for other offices, or matters that pertain to national, county, or financial issues.

worded

Well irish people outside the country can hardly vote in a worse guberment than the present population has done time after time

Grudaire

worded wrote: »

Well irish people outside the country can hardly vote in a worse guberment than the present population has done time after time

Jaysus I'd choose our incompetent idiots over America's capitalistic and malicious governments Tbf

murphaph

As an expat (and one who pays income tax still in Ireland, but that's not relevant to my point really) I feel expats should retain the vote for Dail elections for at least a certain number of years, perhaps 20. if your average expat hasn't returned by then, he probably won't. I feel this is only fair to folks who have lost their jobs due to economic mismanagement by their own government and where those folks have done the country an economic favour and have gone abroad to work, rather than sign on in Ireland and become a drain on the exchequer,

I agree that given there are apparently 3 million Irish citizens living abroad that a blanket vote for all would be unfair as many never had any practical or day to day connection to the country.

FTA69

Cliste wrote: »

Too many contentious issues for this issue to be dealt with properly tbh.

Personally it is my opinion that emigrants should not have the vote - or at least not indefinitely like VICA want. After several years people lose any practical link with Ireland. The practical issues with absentee voting is another issue to be addressed.

Indeed I would go as far as to say that people in the North have far more of a link to Ireland and Irish politics will affect them far more. (eg decisions on the boarder) Indeed it is not inconceivable that Ireland is united in our lifetimes.

I agree with you in the sense that Irish citizens in the north should have some sort of input into the electoral process and the state in general; the presidential elections would be a good start for this. I can't agree with your assertion that after "several" years emigrants lose a practical link however. We saw a large influx of returned emigrants during the boom years and many of them had been away for a lot longer than several years.

djpbarry

FTA69 wrote: »

I agree with you in the sense that Irish citizens in the north should have some sort of input into the electoral process and the state in general...

But "non-Irish" should not?

Grudaire

When people become entitled to voting rights elsewhere I see absolutely no reason for them to retain voting rights here.

When people do come back they are back in the voting process, this idea that somehow they deserve to keep voting rights because they may move back several years in the future is nice but raises the question of why we don't allow anyone immegrating to Ireland a voting right for a few years before they move.

When I say 'practical link' I mean actual physical link. I don't mean emotional, and I don't mean listening to your cousin on the phone. I don't even mean being subjected to cheesy Fáilte Ireland ads.
I mean how can decisions the government in Ireland take that affects your day-to-day life. You don't pay taxes here, your bins aren't collected here, we're not waging war on your country, the Gardaí don't keep you safe and the HSE doesn't save your life.

What scares me is that giving votes to all citizens would leave the system wide open for absolute abuse. Bad enough the handful who drive around to vote twice, imagine the number of postal votes an enthusiastic politician could engineer.

FTA69

djpbarry wrote: »

But "non-Irish" should not?

What do you mean?

Cliste,

When people become entitled to voting rights elsewhere I see absolutely no reason for them to retain voting rights here.

They don't though for the most part. I can vote in elections in the UK but only because of a special scenario that was devised for Irish and British citizens. Irish emigrants elsewhere have no franchise in their home country or abroad. The vast majority of the world's emigrants would exercise their franchise in their own country if they choose to do so. Ireland is one of the very few places that they can't.

why we don't allow anyone immegrating to Ireland a voting right for a few years before they move.

Because they aren't Irish citizens?

I mean how can decisions the government in Ireland take that affects your day-to-day life. You don't pay taxes here, your bins aren't collected here, we're not waging war on your country, the Gardaí don't keep you safe and the HSE doesn't save your life.

The taxation is a red-herring as has already been explained. The franchise is related to citizenship of the state, not the taxes you may or may not pay toward it. There are plenty of people in Ireland who pay no income tax but yet are perfectly entitled to vote and there are also immigrants (who vote in their own countries) who do pay tax to the Irish exchequer who have no vote.

As for having no link with Ireland, I think it's a bit disingenuous to suggest that you lose all practical link with the country the minute you're out the door. Many if not most emigrants retain a variety of links (family, economic, cultural etc) with Ireland and also make a massive contribution in all of the above spheres. Secondly they often have as much of a stake in Ireland's future or the type of place it will become as anyone else.

What scares me is that giving votes to all citizens would leave the system wide open for absolute abuse.

But yet it's common practice in nearly every other country in the world.

Brussels Sprout

I'd be in favour of giving Irish passport holders living abroad the right to vote in Irish elections with 2 conditions

1) They have to have been a resident in Ireland in the past 10 years
2) They have to go to the nearest Irish embassy or consulate to cast their vote

The first condition would be to exclude people who are too detached from the country or who possibly may never even have lived in Ireland (e.g. children of emigrants). The second condition would impose an inconvenience on voters and would therefore weed out people who may otherwise vote "just because they can" rather then because they are interested.

Grudaire

It is disingenuous to claim that people do not gain the ability to become naturalised in other countries. For example in the UK: http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/britishcitizenship/eligibility/naturalisation/standardrequirements/

No special arrangements necessary. The fact that many people are either too lazy or do not feel they want to become naturalised abroad is not an automatic reason that they should retain voting rights here.

You will notice that I mentioned taxation in a larger paragraph. I specifically made sure not to use it as an argument alone as you are correct that paying tax or owning land alone is not reason to vote.
You will notice however that everything you have listed are things that are not really government decisions. The government runs the country, it is not the soul of the country. It decides what Dole to pay etc. It does not control your relationship with your family or Irish culture. You'd have more of an impact on that by joining your local GAA club abroad!

Indeed I think that it would be downright ridiculous if people who had left the country held a balance of power in all matters political in Ireland. If there are over 1m people able and willing to vote abroad then we would effectively bowing to the will of people who have left the country.

Don't exaggerate, it's done in many other countries, but 'nearly all' is an embellishment. Besides, just because they do it doesn't meant we should do it

FTA69

Cliste wrote: »

It is disingenuous to claim that people do not gain the ability to become naturalised in other countries. For example in the UK: http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/britishcitizenship/eligibility/naturalisation/standardrequirements/

I never said that it isn't possible to get naturalised, rather that most emigrants are facilitated to exercise their franchise in their country of origin as a matter of right and in general can't automatically vote in their host country's elections without having to become citizens of that country. And after all that is the thrust of my argument; that franchise is connected to citizenship alone and as an Irish citizen I should be able to exercise franchise in my own country.

All you are proving by citing the link above is that British citizens can vote in British elections.

No special arrangements necessary. The fact that many people are either too lazy or do not feel they want to become naturalised abroad is not an automatic reason that they should retain voting rights here.

It is a special arrangement between Ireland and the UK in the sense no other nationality can vote in general elections here without being a British citizen. Also not becoming a citizen of the country you're in isn't a matter of laziness. I (and I'd imagine most other Irish people here) are content to remain Irish citizens as that expresses our national identity. The whole "bugger off and become American/Canadian/Australian citizens and vote there" argument is a bit churlish to say the least, and is typical of the attitude traditionally displayed toward emigrants in Ireland.

Indeed I think that it would be downright ridiculous if people who had left the country held a balance of power in all matters political in Ireland. If there are over 1m people able and willing to vote abroad then we would effectively bowing to the will of people who have left the country.

Personally I feel that a useful compromise would be the creation of seats specifically for the Irish diaspora in parliament similar to what they do in the French National Assembly. Also the notion of the Irish electoral system being swamped by voters abroad is another fallacy. Voter turnout is in effect very low when citizens abroad are allowed to vote. Talk of the place being held hostage to foreign votes is simply scare-mongering.

Don't exaggerate, it's done in many other countries, but 'nearly all' is an embellishment. Besides, just because they do it doesn't meant we should do it :

It's done in 115 odd other countries, nearly every other democracy; and it's also done by all but 4 countries in Europe. The reason the campaign brings this up is because voting from abroad is a normal procedure and not this mad outlandish notion that some people try and make it out to be.

Sir Humphrey Appleby

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

I'd be in favour of giving Irish passport holders living abroad the right to vote in Irish elections with 2 conditions

1) They have to have been a resident in Ireland in the past 10 years
2) They have to go to the nearest Irish embassy or consulate to cast their vote

The first condition would be to exclude people who are too detached from the country or who possibly may never even have lived in Ireland (e.g. children of emigrants). The second condition would impose an inconvenience on voters and would therefore weed out people who may otherwise vote "just because they can" rather then because they are interested.

That could be hundreds if not thousands of miles from where they live.

FTA69

Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »

That could be hundreds if not thousands of miles from where they live.

I agree. Either a citizen abroad has the vote or they don't. There's no need to place restrictive conditions on it. Dutch citizens can vote over the internet.

View

FTA69 wrote: »

They don't though for the most part. I can vote in elections in the UK but only because of a special scenario that was devised for Irish and British citizens. .

No such "special arrangement" was ever devised in the UK. Irish citizens retained the vote as they qualified - until "recent" decades - as British citizens in many cases. Since then you have the whole reality that dis-enfranchising Irish citizens means lots of people in NI would lose their vote. Should NI ever leave the UK, expect the historical oddity of Irish citizens having the vote in the UK to end "shortly" thereafter.

Grudaire

You're ignoring the key aspect of my argument - namely that governments are an administrative feature of countries rather than a means of being connected to the country. Why would people who are not directly affected by a governments decisions hhave a say in that Government?

(And note I am not against voting rights for several years after a citizen leaves, but indefinitely is clearly unnecessary)

FTA69 wrote: »

All you are proving by citing the link above is that British citizens can vote in British elections.

No, I'm saying that people are afforded the oppertunity to engage with the demographic process in their country of residence. They get a say in who collects the bins where they put their rubbish, what taxes they have to pay, what laws they have to obide by.

FTA69 wrote: »

The whole "bugger off and become American/Canadian/Australian citizens and vote there" argument is a bit churlish to say the least, and is typical of the attitude traditionally displayed toward emigrants in Ireland.

I didn't say that :rolleyes:

Indeed Ireland affords the opportunity to hold dual-citizenships. This allows people who leave to become naturalised abroad, and retain their link to Ireland. But it would afford voting rights in two countries. Hardly necessary?

FTA69 wrote: »

...
Talk of the place being held hostage to foreign votes is simply scare-mongering.

Sensible suggestion regarding a limited number of seats being made available, one which I would agree to. Some suggestions seem to be to retain voting rights in your home constituency.
Currently however there is a requirement for a broadly similar level of representation for every person. This would necessitate a change to the constitution to ensure this.

I'm not scare-mongering, I'm merely pointing out flaws in these broad brushed suggestions.

Painted Pony

FTA69 wrote: »

Because they aren't Irish citizens?

But what is significant about citizenship?

Surely the logical approach in any grouping, from a humble residents association up, is that you afford an input to those who have a current involvement, as opposed to an interest, in whatever concerns the grouping addresses?

For example, given the nature of modern employment dynamics, many of us will find work in a constituency other our home one. We may retain an interest in it and may hope to someday return to live in it, but in the meantime our past, and possible future involvement in our home constituency, should not lead us to expect to be permitted to vote in say local, or even national elections.

So why take a different tack in relation to the nation and its citizens?

djpbarry

FTA69 wrote: »

What do you mean?

My point has just been addressed quite nicely above by Painted Pony.

You're placing a ridiculous emphasis on citizenship. For example, you state that Irish citizens in NI (I presume that means Irish passport holders?) should have some input into the Irish electoral process. But why just the Irish passport holders? Surely non-Irish passport holders in NI are every bit as affected by what happens in The Dáil as Irish passports holders in NI?

murphaph

View wrote: »

No such "special arrangement" was ever devised in the UK. Irish citizens retained the vote as they qualified - until "recent" decades - as British citizens in many cases. Since then you have the whole reality that dis-enfranchising Irish citizens means lots of people in NI would lose their vote. Should NI ever leave the UK, expect the historical oddity of Irish citizens having the vote in the UK to end "shortly" thereafter.

There most certainly are special agreements between the UK & Ireland wrt. voting rights for each others citizens in the other country. It has nothing to do with grandfather rights etc.

Irish citizens are expressly permitted to vote in all UK elections once they have established residency in the UK (I think at the latest 5 years after settling there, but can be sooner). Similar applies in reverse but excludes right to vote in presidential elections.

FTA69

Painted Pony wrote: »

But what is significant about citizenship?

It's significant because not only is it my national identity it is also the embodiment of my allegiance to Ireland and my wish to be part of that country's future. This is something of paramount importance to many emigrants and is the reason why most of us don't seek to take on citizenship of the countries we're in.

Also citizenship is significant in this particular discussion as that is exclusively what the franchise stems from.

For example, given the nature of modern employment dynamics, many of us will find work in a constituency other our home one. We may retain an interest in it and may hope to someday return to live in it, but in the meantime our past, and possible future involvement in our home constituency, should not lead us to expect to be permitted to vote in say local, or even national elections.

I know many, many people who live in cities like Cork and Dublin who travel to their home constituencies in order to vote. Similarly I don't think it fair to compare explicitly local campaigns etc with the wish to have a say on the future of your own country.

Brussels Sprout

murphaph wrote: »

Irish citizens are expressly permitted to vote in all UK elections once they have established residency in the UK (I think at the latest 5 years after settling there, but can be sooner). Similar applies in reverse but excludes right to vote in presidential elections.

Point in case: I applied for, and was granted, a vote in the last British general election (2010) having only been living there for for less than 2 months.

As far as i know british subjects who are residents in Ireland can vote in our general elections but not in our presidential elections or referenda.

djpbarry

murphaph wrote: »

Irish citizens are expressly permitted to vote in all UK elections once they have established residency in the UK (I think at the latest 5 years after settling there, but can be sooner). Similar applies in reverse but excludes right to vote in presidential elections.

There is no requirement to establish residency.

djpbarry

FTA69 wrote: »

It's significant because not only is it my national identity it is also the embodiment of my allegiance to Ireland and my wish to be part of that country's future. This is something of paramount importance to many emigrants and is the reason why most of us don't seek to take on citizenship of the countries we're in.

Irish people don’t seek US citizenship?

FTA69 wrote: »

I know many, many people who live in cities like Cork and Dublin who travel to their home constituencies in order to vote.

Might they be students?

enda1

I'm Irish and live abroad. I strongly believe that I should NOT have the right to vote in general elections, local elections, European elections or referenda. I think maybe an allowance to vote in Presidential elections could be acceptable but I'm not even sure about that.

Basically it comes down to the fact that you shouldn't have the right to vote if you are not represented by the outcome of the vote.

View

murphaph wrote: »

There most certainly are special agreements between the UK & Ireland wrt. voting rights for each others citizens in the other country. It has nothing to do with grandfather rights etc.

Irish citizens are expressly permitted to vote in all UK elections once they have established residency in the UK (I think at the latest 5 years after settling there, but can be sooner). Similar applies in reverse but excludes right to vote in presidential elections.

Irish citizens living in the UK had voting rights for decades before Ireland - unilaterally - decided to give such rights to UK citizens living in Ireland. The UK did not request that Ireland do this at the time and never expressed the slightest interest in us having done so.

FTA69

djpbarry wrote: »

Irish people don’t seek US citizenship?
Might they be students?

No, don't many of them these days due to my old age. Both my aunt and uncle remain registered in Waterford despite living away from that constituency for over 20 years. Many people I knew in Cork City would return to Kerry, rural Cork etc to vote in their village or town of origin.

Irish people don’t seek US citizenship?

Most of them there don't. If you weren't automatically granted the franchise here now would you apply for British citizenship in order to get it? I know bucket loads of Irish people in Australia and Canada and while most of them are trying to get residency I know very few who have expressed interest in getting the passport.

djpbarry

FTA69 wrote: »

No, don't many of them these days due to my old age. Both my aunt and uncle remain registered in Waterford despite living away from that constituency for over 20 years. Many people I knew in Cork City would return to Kerry, rural Cork etc to vote in their village or town of origin.

Ignoring for a moment that this constitutes fraud, it illustrates everything that's wrong with democracy in Ireland - local trumps national in general elections. Exporting that mentality strikes me as a really bad idea.

FTA69 wrote: »

Most of them there don't. If you weren't automatically granted the franchise here now would you apply for British citizenship in order to get it? I know bucket loads of Irish people in Australia and Canada and while most of them are trying to get residency I know very few who have expressed interest in getting the passport.

But that's the point - it's all about necessity. Irish people in the UK don't apply for British citizenship because they don't need to. I know plenty of Irish people who have US passports (for example) because they felt it was necessary to get one.

paul71

I tried to look up the number of Irish citizens living abroad and came up with different figures, but the best estimates seem to indicate 3 million. Given that the potential electorate that people are proposing in this thread would vastly exceed the electorate resident in the country, we therefore cannot compare ourselves with other countries such as Holland as someone mentioned earlier.

The fact is that in a parlimentary democracy based on constituencies (assuming non-residents citizens would have their own constituency) , should we grant the vote to all Irish citizens then the number of TDs elected by non-residents would exceed the number elected by residents.

I have to ask would anyone really be comfortable living in a country where the government was selected by people who do not live here?

View

paul71 wrote: »

I tried to look up the number of Irish citizens living abroad and came up with different figures, but the best estimates seem to indicate 3 million. Given that the potential electorate that people are proposing in this thread would vastly exceed the electorate resident in the country, we therefore cannot compare ourselves with other countries such as Holland as someone mentioned earlier.

The fact is that in a parlimentary democracy based on constituencies (assuming non-residents citizens would have their own constituency) , should we grant the vote to all Irish citizens then the number of TDs elected by non-residents would exceed the number elected by residents.

I have to ask would anyone really be comfortable living in a country where the government was selected by people who do not live here?

Well I can largely agree with that I'd have to say it is a double-edged sword as Irish citizens abroad might actually elect better people since they might focus on policies not potholes.

Likewise recent immigrants might vote the same way as they probably don't understand that voting for Joe rather than Pat - from the same party and who will both follow the same party whip - is the be-all and end-all of most voters' political decision making.

paul71

View wrote: »

Well I can largely agree with that I'd have to say it is a double-edged sword as Irish citizens abroad might actually elect better people since they might focus on policies not potholes.

Likewise recent immigrants might vote the same way as they probably don't understand that voting for Joe rather than Pat - from the same party and who will both follow the same party whip - is the be-all and end-all of most voters' political decision making.

That could well be true but you could equally argue that a majority electorate based abroad could eventually realise the position of power that they have and form a party of their which could deliberately funnel all tax receipts away from the preverbale pothole into emigrant support policies.

Also not included in the figure of 3 million are the potential 1 million Unionists who are entitled to Irish citizenship and certainly have not taken it up yet. I really could not see them pass up the opertunity of getting 10% to 15% representation in the Dail. If you add it all up the figures would show an electorate of about 6.75 million with about 1/3 actually living in Ireland.

Painted Pony

FTA69 wrote: »

It's significant because not only is it my national identity it is also the embodiment of my allegiance to Ireland and my wish to be part of that country's future. This is something of paramount importance to many emigrants and is the reason why most of us don't seek to take on citizenship of the countries we're in.

Well those kind of lofty sentiments are good and well but the reality of course is that election issues are usually about more bread and butter matters such health, education, welfare etc.

And it makes no sense to some of us that we would change our system so that those who are directly affected by these issues would be a minority of the electorate!

FTA69 wrote: »

Also citizenship is significant in this particular discussion as that is exclusively what the franchise stems from.

But surely exposes an anomaly? A Pole may be part of Irish society, contributing to the Irish economy, educating their children in Irish schools etc. and have no (automatic) right to a say. But someone else who is a citizen, and who has no intension of returning to Ireland, or indeed may never have set foot in Ireland, does?

FTA69 wrote: »

I know many, many people who live in cities like Cork and Dublin who travel to their home constituencies in order to vote. Similarly I don't think it fair to compare explicitly local campaigns etc with the wish to have a say on the future of your own country.

Assuming they vote in the constituency in which they reside (and I think they should) then they can not also vote in their home one. And no one makes the argument that because they retain an interest in their constituency and want to be a part of its future, which they may well do, that they should retain their vote. When they are actually part of their constituency again, they can regain their franchise.

Why should it be any different with ex-pats?

View

paul71 wrote: »

.
Also not included in the figure of 3 million are the potential 1 million Unionists who are entitled to Irish citizenship and certainly have not taken it up yet. I really could not see them pass up the opertunity of getting 10% to 15% representation in the Dail.

Whatever about anyone else I doubt there would be much uptake by Unionists.

It would be akin to giving everyone here votes in the Spanish election - we aren't interested in being Spanish and have limited reason to concern ourselves with Spain's politics so why would we vote?

murphaph

djpbarry wrote: »

There is no requirement to establish residency.

Ok, but you have to be resident in the UK to vote there.

Son Of A Vidic

murphaph wrote: »

Irish citizens are expressly permitted to vote in all UK elections once they have established residency in the UK (I think at the latest 5 years after settling there, but can be sooner).

I'll tell you how soon, I moved to London during the summer of 1996 and I was quite amazed to learn, that I was entitled to vote in the May 1997 general Election. I fully support the right of the Irish diaspora to vote. Tens of thousand have been forced from this little island in recent years, through no choice of their own. Thanks to the incompetence & acquiescence of consecutive bleating governments. I'll leave it there, but you can be absolute certain nothing will change. The politically spineless denizens of Dáil Eireann, know all to well what their faith would be if such voting rights were extended.

paul71

View wrote: »

Whatever about anyone else I doubt there would be much uptake by Unionists.

It would be akin to giving everyone here votes in the Spanish election - we aren't interested in being Spanish and have limited reason to concern ourselves with Spain's politics so why would we vote?

I think you missed the point, we have no interest in Spainish politics because they have no impact on us.

Unionists have plenty of interest in Irish Politics, because they view us as a threat (rightly or wrongly) to their identity and culture, and I doubt very much if they would ignore the chance to take seats in the Dail with a view to blocking any movements (real or imagined) towards re-unifying the Island.

View

paul71 wrote: »

I think you missed the point, we have no interest in Spainish politics because they have no impact on us.

And equally we have little to no impact on the average Unionist (probably less than Spain has on us as a result of inter-Eurozone politics).

paul71 wrote: »

Unionists have plenty of interest in Irish Politics, because they view us as a threat (rightly or wrongly) to their identity and culture, and I doubt very much if they would ignore the chance to take seats in the Dail with a view to blocking any movements (real or imagined) towards re-unifying the Island.

I am sure some Unionists view us as a threat, most don't though and are focused on domestic (UK) politics as we are - at best - like a rain cloud on the distant horizon: not something to worry about too much although you might keep an eye on it just in case.

djpbarry

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

Tens of thousand have been forced from this little island in recent years, through no choice of their own.

For goodness sake, give it a rest. Plenty of us chose to leave. Some may have had little choice, but most did.

FTA69

Painted Pony wrote: »

Well those kind of lofty sentiments are good and well but the reality of course is that election issues are usually about more bread and butter matters such health, education, welfare etc.

It isn't lofty and sentimental, it's plain reality. A citizen's franchise is derived from their citizenship alone. You might think the notion of a national identity or citizenship is a load of watery b*llocks, but it's a very real issue for many people and is especially potent for many emigrants who find themselves immediately disenfranchised the minute they leave Ireland. This despite the fact that most people leaving at the moment are forced to do so in order to find work elsewhere with a large proportion of them sending home remittances as opposed to hanging around at home drawing the dole. Most emigrants also have a project of return and many will buy property in Ireland.

And it makes no sense to some of us that we would change our system so that those who are directly affected by these issues would be a minority of the electorate!

The notion that Irish elections would be "swamped" by votes coming from abroad is scare-mongering nonsense that hasn't transpired in any of the 115 countries that uphold the rights of their citizens to vote from abroad. As has been pointed out on another thread, Lithuania has a massive emigrant population that are permitted the vote and the sky hasn't fallen down over there. The above notion is largely a red herring anyway considering you could set up a constituency geared toward the diaspora which is what they do in France.

But surely exposes an anomaly? A Pole may be part of Irish society, contributing to the Irish economy, educating their children in Irish schools etc. and have no (automatic) right to a say. But someone else who is a citizen, and who has no intension of returning to Ireland, or indeed may never have set foot in Ireland, does?

It isn't an anomaly, the only thing outside the norm in this debate is the state's flat refusal to allow its citizens to exercise their right to a vote which is facilitated in nearly every other democracy. The thousands of Poles in Ireland, on the other hand, are perfectly entitled to vote in their own country as well as vote in local and European elections in Ireland. If anything the fact that foreign nationals aren't allowed to vote in Ireland despite paying tax simply highlights the other erroneous notion that voting is in any way connected with taxation. (The "no representation without taxation" red herring that people like to bring up.)

Why should it be any different with ex-pats?

Because it's fallacious to connect an emigrant's desire to have a say in his own country with issues that are parochial in nature. Where an Irish citizen decides to vote in Ireland itself is irrelevant to the discussion to be honest.

paul71

FTA69 wrote: »

Painted Pony wrote: »

The notion that Irish elections would be "swamped" by votes coming from abroad is scare-mongering nonsense that hasn't transpired in any of the 115 countries that uphold the rights of their citizens to vote from abroad. As has been pointed out on another thread, Lithuania has a massive emigrant population that are permitted the vote and the sky hasn't fallen down over there. The above notion is largely a red herring anyway considering you could set up a constituency geared toward the diaspora which is what they do in France.

I am afraid it is not "scaremongering nonsense", it is a simple plain and demonstrable fact that the citizenship of Ireland abroad exceeds the electorate at home.
The only legal way to franchise the electorate abroad is based on the population figures in the same way that constituencies in Ireland have numbers of seats allocated based the census figures, if you do not do this then you will have a situation where one vote is worth less then another.

Analogies with Lithuania (or any other country in the world, with the possible exception of Lesotho) are just false, Lithuania has NOTHING like the level of citizens living abroad. They have a large 20 year emigration history, our history of emigration is an even larger proportion of the population over a 160 year period, and they certainly do not have anything even approaching 30% of their electorate abroad.

We on the other hand have 3 million citizens living abroad. The last Dail election had 2,220,000 voters of a registered electorate of 3,000,000.

Put simply, there is NO legal or logisitic method of franchising our citizens abroad without allocating 50% + of the Dail seats to them unless you introduce a mechanism which restricts the value of their vote.