Child Protection.....has society gone over the top in its desire to protect children?

AudreyHepburn

Reading the Micheal Le Vell thread and others that have cropped up here over time, I really do think we as a society have become paranoid and hysterical over child safety.

The Le Vell demonstrates how unwilling we are to accept that people can be falsely accused of things, that children can and do lie and/or make mistakes, that not guilty verdicts can genuinely mean not guilty.

I have seen threads where women are afraid to let their sons near male loos on their own or where the idea of children being anywhere adult men is enough to cause panic attacks.


I have seen male posters say they would be afraid to go near a child that wasn't their own.

Have we gone over the top with regard to child safety?

Mint Sauce

Society has just became more fearful. I certanly would be wary of going near a child even it it was clearly lost or in distress incase a passer by thought I was up to something.

Mickey H

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

There is media-induced terror and paranoia re paedophilia, yes. As in, it can be looked for/found when it's not there.

Agreed.

Sh1tbag OToole

I made a similar thread not so long ago. All this think of the children stuff has gone mad altogether and its not just to do with paedophiles.

If you look back at photos of London in the early 1900's there are children playing on the street everywhere . unattended. Now in the backarse of Ireland where traditionally everyone looked out for each other people are afraid to let children play outside in their own garden.

I suppose society is more fragmented now and people dont know each other as much, also back in the day children were plentiful and many died young. Now if a child dies in an accident or gets murdered people tend to think of it as 'that lad had at least another 80 years left' instead of 'some other thing could just easily have killed him next week'

If one kid falls off a trampoline or some other contraption there are immediately calls to ban the said contraption. Even if someone decides to dig a hole on their own land and a child falls into it, the person who dug the hole would be liable. It really is mad. I can see someday I will have to give up my car and be condemned to a Google driverless car on the off chance I might someday run down a child

Wacker The Attacker

I believe the children are our future.

Teach them well and let them lead the way.

Show them all the beauty they possess inside.

DK man

Young 16 year old school girls are not allowed to do work experience in crèches until they have been Garda vetted - which takes @16 weeks!

cassid

Society needs to protect children and all who are vulnerable

But it should also protect "alleged perpetrators" and identies should not be revealed until a verdict is given.

Le Veil will now always be associated with this even, though he has been declared innocent. An innocent verdict won't stop the idle chatter, "there's no smoke bla bla bla"

AudreyHepburn

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

There is media-induced terror and paranoia re paedophilia, yes. As in, it can be looked for/found when it's not there.

Yes that's certainly part of it.

I'd imagine the Clerical Abuse scandal may have added to it too.

Mint Sauce wrote: »

Society has just became more fearful. I certanly would be wary of going near a child even it it was clearly lost or in distress incase a passer by thought I was up to something.

I wonder why we are so much more fearful though?

AudreyHepburn

cassid wrote: »

Society needs to protect children and all who are vulnerable

But it should also protect "alleged perpetrators" and identies should not be revealed until a verdict is given.

Le Veil will now always be associated with this even, though he has been declared innocent. An innocent verdict won't stop the idle chatter, "there's no smoke bla bla bla"

Of course we have a duty of protection and rightly so.

I just wonder if we overdo it sometimes?

I agree with total amonimity on all sides of an accusation except for the accused if found guilty.

Femme_Fatale

The accused should definitely have anonymity. The way that guy's name was dragged through the mud as if he was guilty, before the verdict was even reached, is disgusting.

clairefontaine

Yes and no.

All perspective has been lost.

Not just with pedophilia. With everything.

Reporting child abuse has become in some cases a war of vindictiveness. People using kids and the system like this, whether spite towards a neighbour (yes have seen this happen) or in custody battles, or in family feuds, should be prosecuted.

Handsome Bob

Child protection isn't the issue; it's ignorance of what actually constitutes a valid child welfare concern.

Jester252

Some rules brought in by companies are just discriminating.
A male is forced to move if an unaccompanied minor is seated next to him as all males have the potential to be sex offenders. Imagine the uproar if the word male was black, female etc. Sure only a few weeks ago a father was detained by the police in England because he was walking with his son and someone just assumed he was a sex predator

Jimoslimos

Jester252 wrote: »

Some rules brought in by companies are just discriminating.
A male is forced to move if an unaccompanied minor is seated next to him as all males have the potential to be sex offenders. Imagine the uproar if the word male was black, female etc. Sure only a few weeks ago a father was detained by the police in England because he was walking with his son and someone just assumed he was a sex predator

I don't think he was detained, just stopped and questioned, but yes I agree.

Femme_Fatale

Jester252 wrote: »

A male is forced to move if an unaccompanied minor is seated next to him as all males have the potential to be sex offenders.

Where? On trains etc? How can that be enforced? Is it a case that if the ticket inspector sees a man sitting down next to a child, the rule is that the ticket inspector has to tell the man to move to another seat?

clairefontaine

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Where? On trains etc? How can that be enforced? Is it a case that if the ticket inspector sees a man sitting down next to a child, the rule is that the ticket inspector has to tell the man to move to another seat?

Some airplanes.

Femme_Fatale

clairefontaine wrote: »

Some airplanes.

Crikey. But can it always be ascertained that the man is not the child's father/guardian?

clairefontaine

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Crikey. But can it always be ascertained that the man is not the child's father/guardian?

Yes because when you buy the ticket, you make special arrangements for a minor travelling alone.

It wouldn't suprise me if up the road they won't let minors travel unaccompanied at all.

AudreyHepburn

clairefontaine wrote: »

Yes because when you buy the ticket, you make special arrangements for a minor travelling alone.

It wouldn't suprise me if up the road they won't let minors travel unaccompanied at all.

I'm surprised they let it happen now.

KilOit

Couldn't agree more, it's gotten totally out of hand

op should check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hunt_(2012_film) great film
that is similar to what your saying

Femme_Fatale

clairefontaine wrote: »

Yes because when you buy the ticket, you make special arrangements for a minor travelling alone.

Jesus. This is actually a written rule by some airlines?

What is thought can be done to the child by the man in front of all the other passengers and the staff?

AudreyHepburn

KilOit wrote: »

Couldn't agree more, it's gotten totally out of hand

op should check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hunt_(2012_film) great film
that is similar to what your saying

I keep meaning to watch that actually.

Is it good?

woodoo

I generally think it has gone too far but then at times you are reminded of the sort of monsters out there and you reconsider.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2417572/Geoffrey-Portway-dungeon-First-pictures-torture-dungeon-British-man-planned-rape-murder-eat-children-beneath-Massachusetts-house.html

clairefontaine

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Jesus. This is actually a written rule by some airlines?

What is thought can be done to the child by the man in front of all the other passengers and the staff?

http://jezebel.com/5934753/should-airlines-be-allowed-to-forbid-men-from-sitting-next-to-unaccompanied-minors

AudreyHepburn

woodoo wrote: »

I generally think it has gone too far but then at times you are reminded of the sort of monsters out there and you reconsider.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2417572/Geoffrey-Portway-dungeon-First-pictures-torture-dungeon-British-man-planned-rape-murder-eat-children-beneath-Massachusetts-house.html

:eek:

That's the most horrific thing I've ever read!!!

Still though I don't know that we allow should monsters like this to influence our ideas about children and adults in general.

Femme_Fatale

woodoo wrote: »

I generally think it has gone too far but then at times you are reminded of the sort of monsters out there and you reconsider.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2417572/Geoffrey-Portway-dungeon-First-pictures-torture-dungeon-British-man-planned-rape-murder-eat-children-beneath-Massachusetts-house.html

Vomit.

Monsters have always existed though - and children today are far safer than they ever were. In some societies though, they are still treated appallingly.

clairefontaine wrote: »

http://jezebel.com/5934753/should-airlines-be-allowed-to-forbid-men-from-sitting-next-to-unaccompanied-minors

Christ alive. And they say "Predictably" Reddit thinks it's gender discrimination, as if there's something kinda flawed about thinking so. If I were a man, I'd be so livid over that rule. And women could never ever be child molesters of course.
I find Jezebel horribly man-hating at times.

clairefontaine

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Vomit.

Monsters have always existed though - and children today are far safer than they ever were. In some societies though, they are still treated appallingly.

Christ alive. And they say "Predictably" Reddit thinks it's gender discrimination, as if there's something kinda flawed about thinking so. If I were a man, I'd be so livid over that rule. And women could never ever be child molesters of course.
I find Jezebel horribly man-hating at times.

Personally sending a minor unaccompanied is not a choice I would make.

It's not that women can never be a molestor its statistically much higher for men. Airlines want to avoid lawsuits. It could be insurance companies dictating the policy.

But yes I can see how a plane, long haul could be a perfect environment for a predator.

Femme_Fatale

clairefontaine wrote: »

Personally sending a minor unaccompanied is not a choice I would make.

Yeh, me neither.

Kiwi_knock

Having done some volunteering with children over the summer, I have seen the lack of men volunteering in the same activities. I really hope men are not avoiding volunteering with kids for fear of being labelled a paedophile. I was volunteering in a very structured environment, everyone had undergone child protection training and had been Garda vetted. The two to one policy or one to many policy is really stressed, so as a male adult I would have no issue approaching or being around a child for fear of being labelled a paedophile. I really hope other males do not feel society is forcing them to avoid being friendly to children, it would be a real shame.

KilOit

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I keep meaning to watch that actually.

Is it good?

it's an amazing movie, if you don't mind reading subtitles you should give it a bash.

woodoo

Kiwi_knock wrote: »

Having done some volunteering with children over the summer, I have seen the lack of men volunteering in the same activities. I really hope men are not avoiding volunteering with kids for fear of being labelled a paedophile. I was volunteering in a very structured environment, everyone had undergone child protection training and had been Garda vetted. The two to one policy or one to many policy is really stressed, so as a male adult I would have no issue approaching or being around a child for fear of being labelled a paedophile. I really hope other males do not feel society is forcing them to avoid being friendly to children, it would be a real shame.

That is most certainly happening already.

Sh1tbag OToole

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Yeh, me neither.

Feck it. Thats more of it now

I was sent several times as a young lad and it was an experience.You are well minded, no chance for you to escape but still a welcome break from the parents and a first taste of independence. Would hate to have missed out due to modern overcautiousness

Femme_Fatale

Sh1tbag OToole wrote: »

Feck it. Thats more of it now

I was sent several times as a young lad and it was an experience.You are well minded, no chance for you to escape but still a welcome break from the parents and a first taste of independence. Would hate to have missed out due to modern overcautiousness

Well I mean more specifically small children, not pre-teens/teens. Not because I think great harm will come to them, but I just wouldn't like the idea of them being alone; might be scary for them.

Sh1tbag OToole

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Well I mean more specifically small children, not pre-teens/teens. Not because I think great harm will come to them, but I just wouldn't like the idea of them being alone; might be scary for them.

First time I went I was 6 maybe 7. I thought it was good fun. Maybe its not for all kids though

hatrickpatrick

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703779704576073752925629440.html

My name is URL

clairefontaine wrote: »

http://jezebel.com/5934753/should-airlines-be-allowed-to-forbid-men-from-sitting-next-to-unaccompanied-minors

Some of the responses there make me just want to turn off the computer and go live in the hills

As the father of a young (3 1/2 y.o.) daughter, I applaud this policy. It's a case of Schröedinger's molester here.

emily wainwright

The whole thing with protecting children has gone over the top. There are men who won't be in a room on their own with their nephews.

Mary28

The number of dirtbags that came near me as a child I don't think You can be too cautious. One in four is a pretty high ratio . I'd rather not risk anything with my own kids.

My name is URL

Mary28 wrote: »

The number of dirtbags that came near me as a child I don't think You can be too cautious. One in four is a pretty high ratio . I'd rather not risk anything with my own kids.

Where are you getting the 'one in four' thing from? One in 4 men are child abusers? =/

I can't know what happened to you as a kid, and your views and opinions may well make sense to you depending on your own experiences, but you certainly can be too cautious.. you can easily instil an irrational fear and distrust of males in your kids.. and that could be something which stays with them and has a negative effect on them and their own relationships for life.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

The weird thing is that I essentially agree here but for some reason I kinda get the changing nappies being restricted to being done by females only purely on the grounds of female child sexual abuse is statistically so so small. Now when it comes to mental and physical abuse these statistics start to become more gender neutral so in my opinion changes things back then when it comes to basically everything else.

That film quoted above seems like a good yet intense watch, might check it out, it seems so bloody sad.

Generally speaking I would agree that society has gone too far in the 'mollycoddling' of children to the point of lunacy.

I was speaking to a lady recently from an organisation (don't want to give any more details) and she told me she was at a child custody case a number of weeks ago and said the presiding (male) judge was of the opinion that a child under the age of 3 should not be away from its mother and spend any night with the father on its own.
#I'm fully aware this is as anecdotal as it gets and this is a fairly anonymous posting site but all I can say honestly this is what she told me#

onerone

As a man who enjoys the finer things in life I think its sick that I'm called a pervert or weirdo when the women have cute names like cougar or gerbil. sick of it!

cuckoo

I'd agree that there's a lot more hysteria around the issue of child abuse.

The local swimming pool/gym was renovated a few years ago and I went for a look around when thinking of joining. The showers for the swimming part are in the open, beside the pool - and visible from the reception area and outside the building. When I commented that it was a little bit....public, the staff response was "child protection".

The women's changing rooms for the gym have a shower room, no cubicles, no partitions....nothing. Why? "child protection".

So now when I'm washing my hair after a swim I can wave at people waiting for the number 15 bus on Rathmines road, not sure how that's protecting children but, well, 'hi bus people'.

Knasher

I remember hearing about a court case in the UK against a creche, where a young child wandered away and drowned in a pond. A brick layer had seen the toddler walking alone but didn't intervene for fear of being spotted and accused of being a paedophile.

I think most men could probably relate to that builder, there was a study recently that found that 75% of men wouldn't help a child in distress for fear of what it would look like to others, 25% would ignore the child completely while 50% would look for a woman to help.

MadsL

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I'm surprised they let it happen now.

What?

You do realise not everyone lives in the same country as their ex.

My daughter has travelled internationally alone from the age of 14 and transatlantically twice now alone, inlcuding side trips at the age of 16 up to cousins via Las Vegas (change planes)

It is not the age but the child, she's equipped with steel toe doc martens and instructions Most perverts would need protection from her.

Zen65

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

That's the most horrific thing I've ever read!!!

The guy seems especially vile, but (if I read it correctly) he did not actually hurt anyone. He may simply have been a fantasist who bought these bits of equipment to make his fantasies seem more real to him. Yet he is treated in the article as if he was a paedo murderer. To my mind his crime is distributing paedo images, but I may have missed something when I read the story.

I'm all in favour of punishing people who distribute kiddie porn.

Murderers actually get an easier time of it, which I can never understand. The guy who is suspected of planning to abduct kids is regarded as being a greater danger than a person who is known to have actually killed multiple adults.

As for the impact all this has on men, I agree that it makes it more difficult for men to volunteer for working with children. I teach karate as a volunteer to kids and adults and the degree to which I have to be careful not to be alone with kids is unreal. What makes me mad then is adults who drop their kids off early at the dojo and run even if the other male instructors have not yet arrived. That sort of behaviour leaves me compromised so I effectively have to avoid any interactions with those kids until another adult arrives. The alternative for me is to keep the door locked so those kids get left alone in the car park. Sometimes I have to bring other adults to accompany me who are not involved with the class at all, if i know the other instructors will be late getting down for a class. Less than one in twenty parents will stay in the hall to watch the class, and provide a "second adult" to allow me teach. As for teaching karate without touching a kid's fist or arm . . . . it's not possible!

AudreyHepburn

MadsL wrote: »

What?

You do realise not everyone lives in the same country as their ex.

My daughter has travelled internationally alone from the age of 14 and transatlantically twice now alone, inlcuding side trips at the age of 16 up to cousins via Las Vegas (change planes)

It is not the age but the child, she's equipped with steel toe doc martens and instructions Most perverts would need protection from her.

:rolleyes:

I'm not sure I should dignify that with a response....yes of course I know that, I am not a fool.

I meant I'm surprise that in spite of that there hasn't been hell raised by parents and an embargo placed on it, thats all.

AudreyHepburn

Zen65 wrote: »

The guy seems especially vile, but (if I read it correctly) he did not actually hurt anyone. He may simply have been a fantasist who bought these bits of equipment to make his fantasies seem more real to him. Yet he is treated in the article as if he was a paedo murderer. To my mind his crime is distributing paedo images, but I may have missed something when I read the story.

I'm all in favour of punishing people who distribute kiddie porn.

Murderers actually get an easier time of it, which I can never understand. The guy who is suspected of planning to abduct kids is regarded as being a greater danger than a person who is known to have actually killed multiple adults.

As for the impact all this has on men, I agree that it makes it more difficult for men to volunteer for working with children. I teach karate as a volunteer to kids and adults and the degree to which I have to be careful not to be alone with kids is unreal. What makes me mad then is adults who drop their kids off early at the dojo and run even if the other male instructors have not yet arrived. That sort of behaviour leaves me compromised so I effectively have to avoid any interactions with those kids until another adult arrives. The alternative for me is to keep the door locked so those kids get left alone in the car park. Sometimes I have to bring other adults to accompany me who are not involved with the class at all, if i know the other instructors will be late getting down for a class. Less than one in twenty parents will stay in the hall to watch the class, and provide a "second adult" to allow me teach. As for teaching karate without touching a kid's fist or arm . . . . it's not possible!

Yes you did....the fact that he had purpose built a torture chamber and was planning to kidnap, torture, kill and consume a child.

That man was a danger and a monster....don't try to make less of his crimes.

To your second point....yes it is truely sad that men are , some what ironically, the ones more in fear of interaction with children than the children themselves.

Our paranoia is doing more harm than good imo.

AudreyHepburn

Sh1tbag OToole wrote: »

Feck it. Thats more of it now

I was sent several times as a young lad and it was an experience.You are well minded, no chance for you to escape but still a welcome break from the parents and a first taste of independence. Would hate to have missed out due to modern overcautiousness

Indeed, realistically, what harm could possibly come to you in a tub 6 miles high filled with people? Particularly if the cabin crew are watching out for you.

Out fo curiosity do we know of any cases of abuse occurring on a plane?

clairefontaine

cuckoo wrote: »

I'd agree that there's a lot more hysteria around the issue of child abuse.

The local swimming pool/gym was renovated a few years ago and I went for a look around when thinking of joining. The showers for the swimming part are in the open, beside the pool - and visible from the reception area and outside the building. When I commented that it was a little bit....public, the staff response was "child protection".

The women's changing rooms for the gym have a shower room, no cubicles, no partitions....nothing. Why? "child protection".

So now when I'm washing my hair after a swim I can wave at people waiting for the number 15 bus on Rathmines road, not sure how that's protecting children but, well, 'hi bus people'.

Well if that's in the women's changing room, then obviously they think women are the main perpetrators of child molestation? Do they have that in the men's room too?

You know what's weird about that, is that exposing your nudity to a child is considered an offence, so how are you NOT supposed to without a private area? They are creating sex offences with that layout. Stupid morons.

clairefontaine

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Indeed, realistically, what harm could possibly come to you in a tub 6 miles high filled with people? Particularly if the cabin crew are watching out for you.

Out fo curiosity do we know of any cases of abuse occurring on a plane?

Well any potential witnesses there... You don't know any of them, can't identify them and will never see them again. Combine that with bystander effect, a child's fickle memory, small confined and controlled spaces and yes it's easy for me to see ow it would happen.

Yes there have been cases.

AudreyHepburn

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703779704576073752925629440.html

What truly sad and sick society we live in.

Perhaps we should just lock all men away as soon as they're born, you know just in case.

These kinds of articles actually make me angry :mad: