Mural in East Belfast of George Best to be replaced by UVF gunman

SharpshooterTom

Work is underway to replace the Best mural, which was painted around three years ago at Inverwood Court in Sydenham.

The mural was originally funded by European money as part of a regeneration project managed by Belfast City Council to tackle sectarianism.

The new painting shows a UVF gunman, along with a Martin Luther King quote, which states: 'Freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed'.

A council spokesman said: "In 2010, Belfast City Council, as part of the council's PEACE III project 'Tackling the Physical Manifestations of Sectarianism', provided £1,500 towards the material costs of a mural in memory of George Best.

"This mural replaced an old UVF mural and was welcomed by the community at the time.

"There was no stipulation, relating to the granting of funding for the original project, as to how long the mural had to remain in place.
"The council was unaware of any plans to replace it."

http://www.u.tv/News/Best-mural-replaced-with-UVF-gunman/c05eac9c-0729-4e41-be20-bf70dc6aa5de

So another non-sectarian mural is being replaced by a masked UVF gunman in east Belfast. I'm not getting the Martin Luther King quote though, why place a man who dedicated his life to peace and who believed in non-violent protest next man holding a machine gun?

Anyway although a senior PUP man has condemned it, there appears to be a lot of support for it on loyalist forums and facebook pages. Apparantly it represents 'the tension' and 'current mood' that is felt in east belfast regarding the flag protests. Anger basically.

There's a lot of support for paramilitaries in East Belfast still, people who are regarded as heroes to the local community. Did the UVF actually kill many IRA men? I guess if they did that would have been fair game but I get the impression most of the time they just killed random drunk taigs and entering pubs and shooting innocent catholics watching football matches. :rolleyes:

Oh and George Best isn't that popular with some loyalists on forums of course because he famously wanted a UI football team and played for the so called "English Celtic".

Gee Bag

The new painting shows a UVF gunman, along with a Martin Luther King quote, which states: 'Freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed'.

I'm finding it very, very diffficult to get my head around this bit.

dd972

Always had a bit of time for David Ervine and the PUP, he once said 'we've got to get this nonsense out of our heads about not being Irish, we've more in common with the people on The Falls than the English, Welsh or Scots'

There are a quotient of Loyalists who've no time for the Paisley's, Robinson's and Trimbles.

Bit of a shame about the mural, I'm sure the locals derived more aesthetic pleasure from the Best one.

donegal__road

maybe it was commissioned by the UFF, and someone got their wires crossed..

(a bit like the scene in Spinal Tap, where they get the measurements wrong for the Stonehenge sculpture)

ONeill2013

at least it's not another Irish mythology 'loyalist' mural

http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4013/4547898304_fff823ba56_z.jpg

http://static.giantbomb.com/uploads/original/3/31838/963871-cuchubelfast.jpg

Femme_Fatale

ONeill2013 wrote: »

at least it's not another Irish mythology 'loyalist' mural

http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4013/4547898304_fff823ba56_z.jpg

http://static.giantbomb.com/uploads/original/3/31838/963871-cuchubelfast.jpg

Haha, thick *****!

ONeill2013

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Haha, thick *****!

i'm no expert in irish mythology but i always assumed cu chullainn didn't actually exist?

Clandestine

This is actually hilarious, I'm sorry

donegal__road

ONeill2013 wrote: »

at least it's not another Irish mythology 'loyalist' mural

http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4013/4547898304_fff823ba56_z.jpg

http://static.giantbomb.com/uploads/original/3/31838/963871-cuchubelfast.jpg

reminds me of this

ONeill2013

and again

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2755/4390424530_c6c4659146_z.jpg

Legs.Eleven

donegal__road wrote: »

reminds me of this

The comments below it are classic. Bobby Sands is "deid" apparently.

Legs.Eleven

ONeill2013 wrote: »

and again

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2755/4390424530_c6c4659146_z.jpg

The Hand http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0082497/

Karl Stein

What.
The.
Actual.
Fuck?

awec

This is a real shame IMO. This lot are a bunch of scumbags. This is territory marking - no doubt about it and I am sure the people of the area don't want it. Maybe they want another few quid thrown at them.

But there's no point sitting here pretending that it's only part of one community who view these sort of scumbags as heroes - there are sections of the nationalist community who are more than happy to see IRA parades and whip out the old misty eyed poetic tripe when speaking about their "heroes".

For every goon who views Michael Stone as a hero there's another goon who views Brendan McFarlane as the same. For every Billy Wright idoliser there's a Sean Kelly idoliser (and I don't mean the cyclist!). Ultimately this is the problem, I think it's a mindset thing and I'm not sure how you fix it.

That said, comments like "there is a lot of support for paramilitaries in East Belfast" and that loyalists don't like George Best cause he wanted a UI football team are baseless and nonsense. A more cynical person may even label such statements differently.

Karl Stein

awec wrote: »

This is a real shame IMO.

I was with you up as far as that bit.

But then that's your shtick isn't it? Any time loyalists or Unionists show themselves up you arrive with your whataboutery and attempts to diminish any criticism by pointing and screaming 'look at them'uns'.

TheChizler

Did I imagine it or were there more posts a minute ago?

awec

Charlie Rock wrote: »

I was with you up as far as that bit.

But then that's your shtick isn't it? Any time loyalists or Unionists show themselves up you arrive with your whataboutery and attempts to diminish the criticism by pointing and screaming 'look at them'uns'.

Not at all.

I'm not going to sit here and accept rubbish like "there is a large paramilitary support in East Belfast" when making such a statement is entirely baseless.

I'm also not going to sit here and read rubbish that basically points the finger at an entire community as being a bunch of paramilitary loving catholic hating bigots.

I am not diminishing the criticism at all, I'm more than critical of the shortcomings of these people. I'm critical of the one-sided agenda that's put across at times in these threads, and the head-in-the-sand tripe that ensues when someone has the audacity to call them on it.

There was an IRA parade in Tyrone recently. Does that mean that Tyrone is a paramilitary supporting hole? Of course not. I think a bit of common sense and courtesy should be used and perhaps even a bit of honesty when it comes to creating these threads - rather than sensationalist tripe that only seeks to mislead.

One would have to ask why you have such an issue with someone putting things into perspective. Would you prefer the thread just continue in a misleading manner, and we can all get in a bit of generic unionist bashing?

Karl Stein

ONeill2013 wrote: »

i'm no expert in irish mythology but i always assumed cu chullainn didn't actually exist?

The thing is - Catholics/Nats/Reps have no monopoly on our mythology. It's when these guys try to turn it into part of their anti-culture that's, frankly, pathetic.

awec

Legs.Eleven wrote: »

The comments below it are classic. Bobby Sands is "deid" apparently.

I'm pretty ashamed to know this, but...

There is a line in the song (or an unofficial line cause I don't think it's in the video - whatever "unofficial" means in this context I dunno cause the song is obviously recorded by some goon with a casio keyboard in his garage):

"Remember our fathers brave and bold, as they fought for ulsters cause in far off lands (fcuk bobby sands he's deid)"

Obviously it's meant to be "dead", but it must be some scottish / ulster scots pronunciation of it cause when it's sung it's definitely pronounced "deid".

Either way, it's a sh!te song.

Karl Stein

awec wrote: »

Not at all.

Em.. that's exactly what you did. I'm confident I could go back through your posts and point out other instances of it.

I'm not going to sit here and accept rubbish like "there is a large paramilitary support in East Belfast" when making such a statement is entirely baseless.

But that's not what you did? If that was your problem then pull the quote and refute it rather than engage in nothing more than 'but look at them'uns' distraction.

I'm also not going to sit here and read rubbish that basically points the finger at an entire community as being a bunch of paramilitary loving catholic hating bigots.

And this has been done where?

I'm critical of the one-sided agenda that's put across at times in these threads, and the head-in-the-sand tripe that ensues when someone has the audacity to call them on it.

One-sided agenda of what? Head in the sand to what?

Would you prefer the thread just continue in a misleading manner, and we can all get in a bit of generic unionist bashing?

See this is being dishonest, an obvious strawman easily set fire too. Nobody here has said 'Lol that's Unionists for ya'.

Wow. Just wow.

Dr Turk Turkelton

ONeill2013 wrote: »

at least it's not another Irish mythology 'loyalist' mural

http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4013/4547898304_fff823ba56_z.jpg

http://static.giantbomb.com/uploads/original/3/31838/963871-cuchubelfast.jpg

Damnit now I'm a loyalist:-(

awec

Charlie Rock wrote: »

Em.. that's exactly what you did. I'm confident I could go back through your posts and point out other instances of it.

What part of:

"This is a real shame IMO. This lot are a bunch of scumbags. This is territory marking - no doubt about it and I am sure the people of the area don't want it. Maybe they want another few quid thrown at them."

is diminishing the criticism?

What do you want me to do?

Why are you against perspective being put on this? I'm all for criticising the people behind these murals having done so rather clearly myself on this thread, but I fail to see why pointing out that there is a wider problem in Northern Ireland when it comes to issues of paramilitaries and then using some examples of why is such a huge issue for you. Should we all just pretend that it isn't a problem and spend the rest of this thread pointing and laughing?

Jester252

Good to see the progress in the past 15 year is taking a step back. Hope it only a temporary decline.

Karl Stein

dd972 wrote: »

There are a quotient of Loyalists who've no time for the Paisley's, Robinson's and Trimbles.

And I wouldn't blame them tbh. Unionist politicians of Paisley's ilk have often tried to gain political capital by manipulating fundamentalist loyalism by poking at fears, insecurities and a general sense of disenfranchisement then washing their hands of the consequences.

The most recent example of the above being the Flag issue.

awec

Charlie Rock wrote: »

And I wouldn't blame them tbh. Unionist politicians of Paisley's ilk have often tried to gain political capital by manipulated fundamentalist loyalism by poking at fears, insecurities and a general sense of disenfranchisement then washing their hands of the consequences.

The most recent example of the above being the Flag issue.

Very true.

That said, I don't put Trimble in the same category as Paisley. I have / had time for the former, but never the later.

Karl Stein

awec wrote: »

What part of:

"This is a real shame IMO. This lot are a bunch of scumbags. This is territory marking - no doubt about it and I am sure the people of the area don't want it. Maybe they want another few quid thrown at them."

is diminishing the criticism?

That big bit after 'BUT...' and then the whataboutery an 'but them'uns' ensued.

Why are you against perspective being put on this? I'm all for criticising the people behind these murals having done so rather clearly myself on this thread, but I fail to see why pointing out that there is a wider problem in Northern Ireland when it comes to issues of paramilitaries and then using some examples of why is such a huge issue for you.

You didn't put perspective on it. You engaged in whataboutery and distraction. What is the perspective? Do you even have a perspective? Because 'whatabout them'uns' is not a perspective.

How about this Awec. Let me try.

Loyalism in disadvantaged areas has found itself at an impasse. The sons of former working class Protestants used to follow their Fathers into the shipyards and other industries and thus there was little in the way of a culture of education in these areas as it simply wasn't needed.

The shipyards are gone now and loyalist areas are blighted by unemployment and there is not much in the way of a culture of continuing education. This leaves lots of disempowered young men with time on their hands. The Flag issue and the handling of it simply played into this feeling and the paramilitaries can capitalise on this. What's needed is assertive community intervention to divert young people in these ares into jobs training and further education.

That, would be perspective (and it can apply to Nationalists who are drawn towards the Republican equivalent)

When you opened the thread were you looking for a discussion or a laugh?

I don't think it's all that funny tbh. Also, nobody should be immune from ridicule. And, yeah, Loyalists have no monopoly on gob****ery in the north. That's obvious.

K-9

awec wrote: »

This is a real shame IMO. This lot are a bunch of scumbags. This is territory marking - no doubt about it and I am sure the people of the area don't want it. Maybe they want another few quid thrown at them.

But there's no point sitting here pretending that it's only part of one community who view these sort of scumbags as heroes - there are sections of the nationalist community who are more than happy to see IRA parades and whip out the old misty eyed poetic tripe when speaking about their "heroes".

For every goon who views Michael Stone as a hero there's another goon who views Brendan McFarlane as the same. For every Billy Wright idoliser there's a Sean Kelly idoliser (and I don't mean the cyclist!). Ultimately this is the problem, I think it's a mindset thing and I'm not sure how you fix it.

That said, comments like "there is a lot of support for paramilitaries in East Belfast" and that loyalists don't like George Best cause he wanted a UI football team are baseless and nonsense. A more cynical person may even label such statements differently.

awec wrote: »

Not at all.

I'm not going to sit here and accept rubbish like "there is a large paramilitary support in East Belfast" when making such a statement is entirely baseless.

I'm also not going to sit here and read rubbish that basically points the finger at an entire community as being a bunch of paramilitary loving catholic hating bigots.

I am not diminishing the criticism at all, I'm more than critical of the shortcomings of these people. I'm critical of the one-sided agenda that's put across at times in these threads, and the head-in-the-sand tripe that ensues when someone has the audacity to call them on it.

There was an IRA parade in Tyrone recently. Does that mean that Tyrone is a paramilitary supporting hole? Of course not. I think a bit of common sense and courtesy should be used and perhaps even a bit of honesty when it comes to creating these threads - rather than sensationalist tripe that only seeks to mislead.

One would have to ask why you have such an issue with someone putting things into perspective. Would you prefer the thread just continue in a misleading manner, and we can all get in a bit of generic unionist bashing?

That's all whataboutery crap though, the North doesn't stand a chance if everything is about the zero sum game, but what did the other crowd get/do? type crap. Nobody stands a chance with that mindset, and both sides are as bad as each other.

The new painting shows a UVF gunman, along with a Martin Luther King quote, which states: 'Freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed'.

What a bastardisation of one of the most uplifting and inspirational sppeches ever. Read like "white men" are the most oppressed race in the world crap, it's a narrative that does seem to get more traction in Loyalist discussions for obvious reasons. A section of that society who enjoyed a supremacy background, now feel threatened and down trodden.

Both sections have huge potential and opportunites ahead of them, seems like a section just want to live in the past and repeatedly fight old battles instead. I don't think there is anything anybody can do for them, just lost causes.

SharpshooterTom

awec wrote: »

That said, comments like "there is a lot of support for paramilitaries in East Belfast" and that loyalists don't like George Best cause he wanted a UI football team are baseless and nonsense. A more cynical person may even label such statements differently.

So you're denying that there is still significant support for paramilitaries in parts of east belfast? Because otherwise they wouldn't exist would they? I thought this was evident during the flag protests in which they essentially helped organise some of those protests. Now I never said that everyone supports paramilitaries in EB nor did I say most people did, I just said in deprived communities in EB there is still a lot of support for paramilitaries, tullycarnet etc.

With regards to George Best, I clearly stated it was only off forums/facebook pages that I read that, and I wasn't even sure because I mentioned that, it was going to be taken seriously, but I wrote it anyway for the hell of it because it was being said by loyalists on the net who were defending the idea that some of them didn't like George Best anyway.

Femme_Fatale

awec wrote: »

But there's no point sitting here pretending that it's only part of one community who view these sort of scumbags as heroes

Who is pretending that? Knew there'd be whataboutery, just knew it. Even on this thread.
This is about a loyalist mural, hence criticism of a loyalist mural - it is not about a republican mural.

there are sections of the nationalist community who are more than happy to see IRA parades and whip out the old misty eyed poetic tripe when speaking about their "heroes".

Yes there are. Who said there aren't?

conorhal

I aplaud this!

No tourist taking one of those black cab tours of Wast Belfast and the Falls Road are interested in a mural of some local hero, a third of which is corporate sponsored advertising with a feckin hashtag!

I however do find it hilarious, the manner in which Loyalism has taken a leaf out of the Shinners book and apropriated the language of the civil rights movement and donned the mantle of 'victimhood'.

citytillidie

talking about flags, i seen how much respect there is for the flags here in Derry when they were taking them down in the waterside.

If they had respect for their flag they would not have kids climb the ladder to rip the flags from the lamp post ensuring it also rips while the "grown ups" tuck into their chips.

anncoates

The UVF obviously misunderstood the brief when they heard a mural was required for a British-based, heavy drinking East Belfast man with a propensity for wild shooting.

The Golden Miller

awec wrote: »

This is a real shame IMO. This lot are a bunch of scumbags. This is territory marking - no doubt about it and I am sure the people of the area don't want it. Maybe they want another few quid thrown at them.

But there's no point sitting here pretending that it's only part of one community who view these sort of scumbags as heroes - there are sections of the nationalist community who are more than happy to see IRA parades and whip out the old misty eyed poetic tripe when speaking about their "heroes".

For every goon who views Michael Stone as a hero there's another goon who views Brendan McFarlane as the same. For every Billy Wright idoliser there's a Sean Kelly idoliser (and I don't mean the cyclist!). Ultimately this is the problem, I think it's a mindset thing and I'm not sure how you fix it.

That said, comments like "there is a lot of support for paramilitaries in East Belfast" and that loyalists don't like George Best cause he wanted a UI football team are baseless and nonsense. A more cynical person may even label such statements differently.

ah the old sly dig at the irish nationalists bit again, in something completely unrelated to them. yet the irish people would never dream of throwing any sly digs at loyalists in an irish nationalist related thread, except bash their own even more. we wouldnt want to come accross as "sectarian to the other side". and these people say they are objective ha. pathetic. dont worry avec, you've shown yourself to be more enlightened and matured on the situation, by coming at it from the british perspective, with a thinly veiled british apologist post "its not just them, its us too", and im just a celtic jersey wearing, barstool republican for pointing it out. good lad

The Golden Miller

awec wrote: »

One would have to ask why you have such an issue with someone putting things into perspective. Would you prefer the thread just continue in a misleading manner, and we can all get in a bit of generic unionist bashing?

when does unionist bashing ever happen? like ever? i think your getting it mixed up with nationalist bashing, which happens all the time on here. why not read through the forum and see for yourself

Wasn't George best an alcoholic wife beater anyway

replacing him with a gunman?
Wrong direction guys...

I am pie

awec wrote: »

This is a real shame IMO. This lot are a bunch of scumbags. This is territory marking - no doubt about it and I am sure the people of the area don't want it. Maybe they want another few quid thrown at them.

But there's no point sitting here pretending that it's only part of one community who view these sort of scumbags as heroes - there are sections of the nationalist community who are more than happy to see IRA parades and whip out the old misty eyed poetic tripe when speaking about their "heroes".

For every goon who views Michael Stone as a hero there's another goon who views Brendan McFarlane as the same. For every Billy Wright idoliser there's a Sean Kelly idoliser (and I don't mean the cyclist!). Ultimately this is the problem, I think it's a mindset thing and I'm not sure how you fix it.

That said, comments like "there is a lot of support for paramilitaries in East Belfast" and that loyalists don't like George Best cause he wanted a UI football team are baseless and nonsense. A more cynical person may even label such statements differently.

Good post, I get a ban everytime I use the appropriate words to express my disgust at these pathetic fools. It is an embarassment to every decent person from the North, however to suggest that people in East Belfast don't like George Best is completely and utterly idiotic.

As for the the English Celtic comments....words fail me, completely made up and inaccurate. Norman Whiteside from the Shankill played for United, as did Sammy McIlroy. They are extremely well supported in NI, as are Liverpool in both communities

Gulliver

The new painting shows a UVF gunman, along with a Martin Luther King quote, which states: 'Freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed'.

Stupid question about that quote - who are the Loyalists gaining freedom from if they are loyal to the Crown/Country who control the area and Southern Ireland had no control over the area? Did I take it up wrong?

Genuine question, by the away.

BlatentCheek

The change of the mural reflects loyalist extremist groups consolidating their control over working class protestant areas - control which most mainstream unionists are too gutless to challenge.

The MLK quote is a ham-fisted attempt to copy the very smooth and effective PIRA method of hijacking progressive narratives from around the world to whitewash their own murder campaign

Capt'n Midnight

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/no-offence-to-george-best-but-loyalists-could-be-doing-with-a-few-more-heroes-1.1518776

it's the IT so probably can't quote it but the article compares Unionists in the Maze getting misspelt tattoos and doing weights with Republicans doing degrees and boning up on the law

Highflyer13

Lol Loyalists. They take down a mural of a legend who represented them well to replace it with a gunman. Words fail me.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Best was raised in a staunch Unionist family, his father was a member of the Orange Order and a young George also took part in marches during his youth. As an adult he tried to keep out of the whole political scene in his footballing career, I think when he raised the point of having a United Ireland soccer team some of the hardliners went off him, Pathetic really when you think about. He was their hero at one point, as the line goes 'Georgie, Georgie they call you the Belfast boy.'

ardle1

ThomasFlynn wrote: »

http://www.u.tv/News/Best-mural-replaced-with-UVF-gunman/c05eac9c-0729-4e41-be20-bf70dc6aa5de

So another non-sectarian mural is being replaced by a masked UVF gunman in east Belfast. I'm not getting the Martin Luther King quote though, why place a man who dedicated his life to peace and who believed in non-violent protest next man holding a machine gun?

Anyway although a senior PUP man has condemned it, there appears to be a lot of support for it on loyalist forums and facebook pages. Apparantly it represents 'the tension' and 'current mood' that is felt in east belfast regarding the flag protests. Anger basically.

There's a lot of support for paramilitaries in East Belfast still, people who are regarded as heroes to the local community. Did the UVF actually kill many IRA men? I guess if they did that would have been fair game but I get the impression most of the time they just killed random drunk taigs and entering pubs and shooting innocent catholics watching football matches. :rolleyes:

Oh and George Best isn't that popular with some loyalists on forums of course because he famously wanted a UI football team and played for the so called "English Celtic".

Awh right seriously, no s#*t, anyway back to the Coronation St Thread:rolleyes:

Son Of A Vidic

awec wrote: »

But there's no point sitting here pretending that it's only part of one community who view these sort of scumbags as heroes - there are sections of the nationalist community who are more than happy to see IRA parades and whip out the old misty eyed poetic tripe when speaking about their "heroes".

Of course this conveniently overlooks the fact, that the catholic community viewed itself as the oppressed during the war. As opposed to Loyalism, which fought to maintain it's perched position of dominance and subjugation over the catholic community. Thankfully the days of sectarian rule and the orange statelet are long dead and consigned to history.

iDave

The cheek of them to compare themselves to the oppressed African American communities. Ulster Loyalism is a byword for discrimination and hatred and they have no right to ever view themselves as oppressed. NI post partition fitted every sensible definition of an apartheid state run by the same ideology that pretends to be discriminated against. Pathetic.

0ph0rce0

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Best was raised in a staunch Unionist family, his father was a member of the Orange Order and a young George also took part in marches during his youth. As an adult he tried to keep out of the whole political scene in his footballing career, I think when he raised the point of having a United Ireland soccer team some of the hardliners went off him, Pathetic really when you think about. He was their hero at one point, as the line goes 'Georgie, Georgie they call you the Belfast boy.'

Probably the same UVF scum that shot up the pub in Down in the 90's because they were watching the REPUBLIC of Ireland match and said to themselves they must be Catholics :rolleyes:

bbam

Feck them and their murals.
Couldn't care less if they painted their mas asses on the walls.
Leave them and their petty paintings and parades.

crazygeryy

george who?

Duck's hoop

K-9 wrote: »

it's a narrative that does seem to get more traction in Loyalist discussions for obvious reasons. A section of that society who enjoyed a supremacy background, now feel threatened...

It's been like this in Derry for many years. The murals evoking comparisons between Derry Protestants and West Bank Palestinians always raise a wry smile.

I'm sure they're taking the p1ss.

I also think it serves as a stark reminder how fecking complicated the whole 'Ulster' thing is, that Loyalists would identify so strongly with Cuchullain, the Cattle Raid, Red Hand and all the rest.

bobbysands81

awec wrote: »

This is a real shame IMO. This lot are a bunch of scumbags. This is territory marking - no doubt about it and I am sure the people of the area don't want it. Maybe they want another few quid thrown at them.

But there's no point sitting here pretending that it's only part of one community who view these sort of scumbags as heroes - there are sections of the nationalist community who are more than happy to see IRA parades and whip out the old misty eyed poetic tripe when speaking about their "heroes".

For every goon who views Michael Stone as a hero there's another goon who views Brendan McFarlane as the same. For every Billy Wright idoliser there's a Sean Kelly idoliser (and I don't mean the cyclist!). Ultimately this is the problem, I think it's a mindset thing and I'm not sure how you fix it.

That said, comments like "there is a lot of support for paramilitaries in East Belfast" and that loyalists don't like George Best cause he wanted a UI football team are baseless and nonsense. A more cynical person may even label such statements differently.

Classic whataboutary and just about every generalisation that you could have when it comes to the north. Why bother?

.jacksparrow.

Its the young generation who don't remember the troubles in east Belfast who are stirring this up again.

Mostly teenagers where there is massive unemployment etc.

Senior loyalist politicians have no control or sway over these as evident from the flag issues.

Saab Ed

BIg digger, large trench, bye bye. Since our earliest written history its always been the most troublesome part of the island. Different people's these days I'm afraid, might as well be Welsh or Bretons. One shared past but not much in common today. I rue the day the metal barricade border crossings came down.