McGeeney: Success or Failure?

Lemlin

klairondavis wrote: »

Hmmm, weren't we beaten out the gate by Dublin in Croke Park back in March? No one with any ounce of cop on truly believed that result could be turned completely on its head in three months.

No doubt Tyrone are a bit further on than Kildare but the gap between the two is hardly that significant on the evidence of this year. 4 points in the league semi final and 2 points in the qualifiers.

That discussion was just before the Dublin game. It may even have been February. I'm not going to search the thread for the posts anyway.

On the night in question though yourself and a number of posters argued that Kildare would beat Tyrone. I said they would not and Tyrone have beaten them twice since, whatever the score difference. Ye also argued that Kildare should be seen as a top six team with Dublin, Mayo, Donegal, Tyrone, Kerry and Cork.

I think one of the things that Kildare supporters need to drop is this notion of 'well we only lost by...' or 'a bad call caused' or 'we've had bad luck'.

Top teams make their own luck and top teams grind out a result in the end. Kildare have had many chances (Dublin in the Leinster final, Down in 2010, Donegal in 2011, even Tyrone this year) and they've failed to push on when a game was there for the taking.

McGeeney has brought the county forward IMO but in six years in charge Kildare have not defeated a top level team in the Championship. For the effort and dedication he has coerced, demaned or requested (whatever way you want to put it) from his players, I think that record has to be questioned.

klairondavis

Lemlin wrote: »

McGeeney has brought the county forward IMO but in six years in charge Kildare have not defeated a top level team in the Championship. For the effort and dedication he has coerced, demaned or requested (whatever way you want to put it) from his players, I think that record has to be questioned.

Coerced? You were doing a good job of hiding your bitterness up until then. I don't really see the point of replying to you on Kildare related topics anymore.

prospect

The only way to know if his term was a success is to know what goals the County Board set for him.

If he was given the target of getting into Div 1 and to blood young players (U21 title), then yes his term was a success.

If his goal was to win a Leinster SF title no matter what, then he failed.



So, unless you know his targets you cannot really determine his level of success.

Lemlin

klairondavis wrote: »

Coerced? You were doing a good job of hiding your bitterness up until then. I don't really see the point of replying to you on Kildare related topics anymore.

Bit of an overreaction there tbh. Perhaps I'm using the wrong word, change it to persuasion if ya like.

To coerce - To force to act or think in a certain way by use of pressure, threats, or intimidation; compel.

For me, most GAA managers use coercion and threats. Even my own at club level threatened players. For example, why was Sean Hurley dropped from the panel for attending Oxegen? That to me is coercion. He was dropped because he did what he wanted and didn't follow the manager's orders.

It also sends a message to the other players. Do what is expected of you or you're off the panel. Is that not coercing someone?

I don't see the problem with the word to be honest.

You Kildare lads are all too fond of throwing out the bias line when someone gives a fair argument. I used to hear the same from the Dublin lads on here when I said Whelan and the lads of the noughties were overrated. Now it's a generally accepted fact they were.

Ignore that line of my post if you like and concentrate on the rest. I will even edit the word if it pleases you. I really think you're overreacting though.

Crash Bang Wall

I would agrue that his success would be based on what he got out of the team & players available to him, and the best people to judge that are the Kildare people who know their club as well as County Football. Watching the club football scene would give people a good grasp at whats available, and what can be achievable.

If for arguments sake Longford get a new manager, and hes told he has to win a Leinster title within 3 years and he doesnt, then in theory hes a failure but realistically its not really a viable target.

From watching the footballl scene in Cavan over the last number of years, the only managers that can be deemed a success is McHugh and Hyland. Hyland is over achieving with the players he has IMO, and McHugh got as much as anyone could have out of the panel of players he had available. I dont base it on targets, I base it on what they got out of the players avaiable

premierstone

Crash Bang Wall wrote: »

If for arguments sake Longford get a new manager, and hes told he has to win a Leinster title within 3 years and he doesnt, then in theory hes a failure but realistically its not really a viable target.

This sums up the issue perfectly tbh.

VONSHIRACH

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-football/ian-mallon-time-for-kildare-stars-to-realise-player-power-brings-likely-failure-29555722.html

premierstone

VONSHIRACH wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-football/ian-mallon-time-for-kildare-stars-to-realise-player-power-brings-likely-failure-29555722.html

He is having a go at Kildare players for not delivering on the pitch and not doing their jobs, fcuk me the irony is incredible considering he is supposed to be an objective journalist writing in a national paper and has written one of the most one-sided articles you are ever likely to read.

As for player power this is the exact opposite to player power, they want McGeaney, the County board wanted to keep him, but in their wisdom the clubs decided they know best, its ludicrous and quite frankly irresponsible of them.

VONSHIRACH

The breakdown of the voting is interesting, with variations between the clubs. Some CB officers voted for change, most notably the Treasurer.

http://www.kildare-nationalist.ie/2013/09/05/way-voting-went/


Here is what Eugene McGee had to say.....

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-football/eugene-mcgee-kildare-players-should-stop-publicityseeking-or-damaging-rift-will-widen-29554281.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

premierstone

Looking at that breakdown of votes is alarming - Hurling Clubs, Handball Clubs, Referees, Leinster Delegates, Irish officers etc voting on the Senior Football manager's position, you couldn't make it up tbh.

klairondavis

4 of the hurling clubs actually voted for his retention - Broadford, Coill Dubh, Éire Óg and Naas. If the hurling clubs did not have a vote the motion would have been defeated by more!

premierstone

klairondavis wrote: »

4 of the hurling clubs actually voted for his retention - Broadford, Coill Dubh, Éire Óg and Naas. If the hurling clubs did not have a vote the motion would have been defeated by more!

It doesn't alter the fact that they should not have a vote, infact the very idea of the clubs having a vote at all is ludicrous.

A much fairer way would be to have an independent committe established, a committee that could include a rep on behalf of all the clubs if neccessary, another representing the players and another representing the County Board.

Lemlin

premierstone wrote: »

He is having a go at Kildare players for not delivering on the pitch and not doing their jobs, fcuk me the irony is incredible considering he is supposed to be an objective journalist writing in a national paper and has written one of the most one-sided articles you are ever likely to read.

As for player power this is the exact opposite to player power, they want McGeaney, the County board wanted to keep him, but in their wisdom the clubs decided they know best, its ludicrous and quite frankly irresponsible of them.

Who said he's meant to be objective though? He's said he's giving his opinion, albeit negative, and has pointed out that he has this view as a Kildare man.

I think it is an attempt at player power. Would the players not be better off just keeping their mouths shut or even appoint a spokesperson e.g. the captain? Respect needs to be earned and these lads have won nothing.

VONSHIRACH

The Kildare players have issued a statement, apparently exclusively to KFM Radio. I havn't heard or read it yet. According to KFM, they want the decision overturned.

klairondavis

premierstone wrote: »

It doesn't alter the fact that they should not have a vote, infact the very idea of the clubs having a vote at all is ludicrous.

A much fairer way would be to have an independent committe established, a committee that could include a rep on behalf of all the clubs if neccessary, another representing the players and another representing the County Board.

To be honest I don't have a major problem with the clubs having a vote on it but it's emerging now that some club delegates voted despite their clubs not holding a meeting before Tuesday's county board meeting That's a ridiculous situation.

My own club voted in favour but the delegate from our hurling club is listed as absent.

klairondavis

I would not pay any attention to Ian Mallon. He was posting stuff on twitter last year that he had "heard" from his sources in the Kildare panel. It was mostly nonsense.

migemo

Sad. That kildare fans think THAT was a success. Sad. Not 1 decent result against a decent team. No mystique as why ye only have 3 leinsters in 70 odd yrs. The bar is still low. Only for the back door giving a slightly better reflection on Mcgeeney reign it would be obvious to kildare like it is to the rest of us that absolutely nothing was achieved. Take the back door results against 3rd tier teams out of the equation and look at what you're left with.

Warper

Obv failure imo, regressing

Poor_old_gill

Have the Kildare county board not spent crazy amounts of money in funding his preparation plans?
Or am I completely wrong? That was my understanding of their debt situation

rpurfield

premierstone wrote: »

Looking at that breakdown of votes is alarming - Hurling Clubs, Handball Clubs, Referees, Leinster Delegates, Irish officers etc voting on the Senior Football manager's position, you couldn't make it up tbh.

yeah the democratic nature of the gaa is awful isnt it. your in the same boat as the panel who have accused the club delegates of looking to their interests over the county!!i always thought that was the point of club delegates was to represent their clubs interests!!

Stoner

Poor_old_gill wrote: »

Have the Kildare county board not spent crazy amounts of money in funding his preparation plans?
Or am I completely wrong? That was my understanding of their debt situation

Mine too, second or third highest spend on development I heard.

DoctaDee

I didn't want to rake the coals on Kildare's debt but seeing as how we're moving there .. my understanding is there's a portion of the debt that's linked to the Hawkfield Development Centre, which the clubs are levied each year on ... but outside that there was a huge spend in KCB which I think was noted as their "day to day" spending being out of control. It came to light when KCB received their 2nd (loan/bailout/advance) call it what you will, and an instruction to get their budgets in order. To the best of my knowledge they have striven to do so, with the senior panels training costs dramatically reduced .....

But...... interestingly the Treasurer of KCB voted against retaining McG .. which set me wondering on a purely economic basis whether 1. the decision was taken on what would be deemed a negligible return on their investment i.e they spent big but have little in the way of their benchmarked success and 2. whether the attendant cost of retaining McG was outside the demanded curtailing of the budget.

These are just general observations, and certainly not meant as a further "rub " on the current difficulties. Ta

klairondavis

DoctaDee wrote: »

I didn't want to rake the coals on Kildare's debt but seeing as how we're moving there .. my understanding is there's a portion of the debt that's linked to the Hawkfield Development Centre, which the clubs are levied each year on ... but outside that there was a huge spend in KCB which I think was noted as their "day to day" spending being out of control. It came to light when KCB received their 2nd (loan/bailout/advance) call it what you will, and an instruction to get their budgets in order. To the best of my knowledge they have striven to do so, with the senior panels training costs dramatically reduced .....

But...... interestingly the Treasurer of KCB voted against retaining McG .. which set me wondering on a purely economic basis whether 1. the decision was taken on what would be deemed a negligible return on their investment i.e they spent big but have little in the way of their benchmarked success and 2. whether the attendant cost of retaining McG was outside the demanded curtailing of the budget.

These are just general observations, and certainly not meant as a further "rub " on the current difficulties. Ta

The first part of your post is 100% accurate. I don't know why Martin Whyte voted against the motion and it could be that there are deeper financial issues that are not known to the public. Only he knows why he voted the way he did.

Just a little bit more background to the finances: 3 or 4 years ago expenditure was totally out of control. It's largely under control now. The county's books actually showed a €25k surplus for 2012.

Hawkfield is essentially a long term mortgage which is funded by a levy on every club in the county.

The problem Kildare have is that we're not bringing in enough money in to pay off our debts even though the current level of expense which is way down on what it was a few years back. Kildare spent approx €525,000 on all inter-county teams (football & hurling) in 2012 with €270,000 of that going on the senior footballers. That overall figure of €525,000 is down nearly €200,000 on 2011. It's budgeted to be even less for this year.

The big issue now is that fundraising and sponsorship are not at the levels they were at during Micko's time. The Supporter's Club had some incredible connections back then which it no longer has and obviously the economy was in a far healthier state.

Here's a post from last February outlining some of the figures: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=83212670&postcount=1175

lanarty56

Failed to win any trophies ,in most counties this would be seen as a failure

DoctaDee

I stopped off in Clane a couple of weeks ago, one of the shops there had a sticker in the window proudly stating they were part of Club Kildare ... is there any handle on the contribution levels from this initiative ? ... is the purpose to defray costs of the senior team or is it more general in nature ?

klairondavis

DoctaDee wrote: »

I stopped off in Clane a couple of weeks ago, one of the shops there had a sticker in the window proudly stating they were part of Club Kildare ... is there any handle on the contribution levels from this initiative ? ... is the purpose to defray costs of the senior team or is it more general in nature ?

Funds all Kildare teams, underage development squads etc.

It has only been brought under the one umbrella with the county board last year so hopefully that will lead to a more organised and focused fundraising effort.

Poor_old_gill

I come from a county that hasn't played Kildare in the championship in over a decade but my reading of the situation is that in reality they are nowhere nearer to winning anything of note since McGeeney took over,

All that seems to have happened under his tenure is that they seem to have become a massive team physically- that can be achieved by any county once they put the money into gym memberships/facilities/dieticians, etc-which Kildare seem to have done resulting in a crazy level of spending.

The skills set of their players doesn't seem to have moved on a whole lot and they have been easily found out by a lot of teams.

His tactics are poor and while he seems to be a player's manager- I just don't think he has done enough on the pitch

Amprodude

McG did nothing with a team that had a bit of potential. His days were up long before now, im thinking Kildare v Donegal 2011 quarter final. That was McGeeneys best year for him to deliver and he failed. He had no success with Kildare so i reckon he was a bit of a failure.

iDave

I just find this a remarkable phase in GAA history where a team was often ranked as 3rd or 4th best in the country and potential All Ireland winners despite no victory over major opposition.

Stoner

In all fairness there was a huge amount of people naming them as top five or six and I never heard the mam himself talking rubbish.

I'd you look at 2011 they were unlucky to not get a draw against Dublin but I'd argue that Boltons goal in that game was a little freaky in the way it skidded in and they were playing 14 men, then they ran Donegal close, these are significant performances only because Dublin and Donegal kicked on and won AIs after that, had either team not done so they would be considered overrated even though things did fall into place for the 2011 and 2012 winners.
I don't think Kildare ever had their day in that period. Looking back 2012 was set up to be a great year for them, the hangover for Dublin kerry not what they were, a poor meath team, underperforming Cork,.
I know I'm sticking up for them I've spent time reminding some of my kildare colleagues that a great record in the qualifiers year after means that you get knocked out of the provincial championship ever year.
But I would have liked to see them win something they were involved in some great games in that time.