McGeeney: Success or Failure?

iDave

2008-2013
1 AI Semi final (same as Meath/Wexford in same timeframe)
1 Leinster final (same as Louth in same timeframe, less than Meath/Wexford)
Promoted to Division 1 in 2012 season at 5th attempt. Stayed up in 2013.
Best win, possibly Meath in 2010 QF.
No victory over a 'Tier 1' team in that timeframe in championship. Meath or Derry being their best scalp.
Defeated in Leinster when favourites against Wicklow 2008, Louth 2010 and Meath 2012.
Heavy defeats to Cork in 2012 QF and Dublin in 2013 Leinster SF.

During the 2009-2012 phase often touted as potential All Ireland winners but never really threatened to win one* and only one provincial final. He took Kildare from the doldrums they were in after 2007 but is that really an achievement for a proud football county like Kildare?
Overall given the level of hype that surrounded them and the players at his disposal and the failure to beat any top class team I would consider him a failure.
I'm sure many will disagree but that's my opinion.





*yes a width of the crossbar from a final in 2010 but they played average opponents in QF and SF and would most likely of lost to Cork in final

TheGoldenAges

Yes and no, brought Kildare to a whisker of being up there with the top teams in 2010/2011 although could never breach that gap.

That said he did well with their resources considering they lacked enough scoring power with natural forwards.

But last season and this season has seen them decline which to be fair was to be expected due to retirements and the integration of young players into their side. Don't think Kildare could have expected more in so far as getting beat by one team in the all ireland semi and another into the final.

I personally would have given him another year as their underage teams have been going well which would have led to senior success. With that said I think they needed a change in their backroom team or at least a skills coach because despite their claim of being the fittest team in the country at one stage, high skill levels bring success.

rpurfield

I wouldnt say a failure but i wouldnt call him a success either. His one tactic was to have his team so fit that theyd run over teams but hed no plan b for games against other super fit teams like dublin/tyrone etc. Id also take the moaning from players with a pinch of salt, any I seen quoted were regular starters under him!!

Tristram

Success? Emphatic yes. Without McGeeney Kildare would have remained in the wilderness and no one would have had any reason to talk about them over the last few years.

Moneymaker

He's been a success but he's taken them as far as he can imo.

The Seanie Johnston stuff really didn't help them at all. Probably created a lot of sideshows and distractions.

iDave

Moneymaker wrote: »

He's been a success but he's taken them as far as he can imo.

The Seanie Johnston stuff really didn't help them at all. Probably created a lot of sideshows and distractions.

Yes the SJ saga created a lot of bad feeling towards Kildare GAA. Using Coill Dubh for a minutes hurling was a joke

Tristram wrote: »

Success? Emphatic yes. Without McGeeney Kildare would have remained in the wilderness and no one would have had any reason to talk about them over the last few years.

Talk about setting a low bar.

premierstone

iDave wrote: »

He took Kildare from the doldrums they were in after 2007 but is that really an achievement for a proud football county like Kildare?

Really , maybe this is the problem, the lack of reality from Kildare supporters, 3 Leinster titles in the last 78 years and they see McGeaney as a failure for reaching 5 AI QF's and 1 Semi final. Kildare's loss will very much be someone elses gain.

romeosensini

for me he did not deliver... even a leinster championship would been something

klairondavis

Are Kildare in a better position now than they were in 2007? Undoubtedly yes. I wanted the man to go for a number of different reasons but I would never dispute that he helped bring Kildare on a long way. A lot the work he did behind the scenes will be unknown to those outside Kildare. In that regard he was a revelation. People will point to a lack of silverware but he probably got close to if not exceeded the limit of the talent that was available in Kildare. Some bad luck in key games during 2010 and 2011 also has to be factored into any evaluation of his tenure.

A failure? Not in my book but I do think it was the correct time for him to go. I hope that's not too contradictory!

klairondavis

premierstone wrote: »

Really , maybe this is the problem, the lack of reality from Kildare supporters, 3 Leinster titles in the last 78 years and they see McGeaney as a failure for reaching 5 AI QF's and 1 Semi final. Kildare's loss will very much be someone elses gain.

I think that's a stereotype that is overplayed. Kildare people do love their football and we invariably seem to have a big support but in my experience most Kildare people are more aware than most of the limitations of their footballers. There are exceptions but that's the case in every county.

premierstone

klairondavis wrote: »

I think that's a stereotype that is overplayed. Kildare people do love their football and we invariably seem to have a big support but in my experience most Kildare people are more aware than most of the limitations of their footballers. There are exceptions but that's the case in every county.

I was referring to the OP and to alot of the comments in the Kildare thread, probably an unfair generalisation on my behalf alright.

klairondavis

premierstone wrote: »

I was referring to the OP and to alot of the comments in the Kildare thread, probably an unfair generalisation on my behalf alright.

It's probably something that's unfairly thrown at a lot of counties that have failed to get over the line when it matters. Some of the Kildare support can get a bit carried away at small successes (see Leinster Minor and u21 wins this year) but that's only natural for a football mad yet success starved county. It's a similar story in Mayo, Cavan, Roscommon, Limerick (hurling) and Waterford (hurling). I don't think that over-excitement should be confused with unrealistic expectations. I didn't encounter a single Kildare supporter who thought we would get close to Dublin this year and the majority in Newbridge expected Tyrone to beat us.

Always_Running

iDave wrote: »

2008-2013
1 AI Semi final (same as Meath/Wexford in same timeframe)
1 Leinster final (same as Louth in same timeframe, less than Meath/Wexford)
Promoted to Division 1 in 2012 season at 5th attempt. Stayed up in 2013.
Best win, possibly Meath in 2010 QF.
No victory over a 'Tier 1' team in that timeframe in championship. Meath or Derry being their best scalp.
Defeated in Leinster when favourites against Wicklow 2008, Louth 2010 and Meath 2012.
Heavy defeats to Cork in 2012 QF and Dublin in 2013 Leinster SF.

During the 2009-2012 phase often touted as potential All Ireland winners but never really threatened to win one* and only one provincial final. He took Kildare from the doldrums they were in after 2007 but is that really an achievement for a proud football county like Kildare?
Overall given the level of hype that surrounded them and the players at his disposal and the failure to beat any top class team I would consider him a failure.
I'm sure many will disagree but that's my opinion.





*yes a width of the crossbar from a final in 2010 but they played average opponents in QF and SF and would most likely of lost to Cork in final

One of those average teams was Down who only lost the AI final by one point. 2010 was what if year for them and in 2011 v Donegal they didn't rub of the green either since that game they have gone down hill.

Radio5

Moneymaker wrote: »

He's been a success but he's taken them as far as he can imo.

The Seanie Johnston stuff really didn't help them at all. Probably created a lot of sideshows and distractions.

He has done all can I think. They have gone backwards since 2011. A new voice needed in the dressingroom methinks.

Frankie Lee

Only the deluded, the ignorant or the senile can consider him a failure.
The Leinster semi final in 09 alone ranks in my top 5 matches as a Kildare supporter.
To those who say he has brought them as far as he can more than likely fail to realise the number of young players brought through in the last 2 years. In the absence of a superior/equal replacement he should have been given more time to develop the team.
Opinions from the likes of Dermot Earley, Johnny Doyle, Eamonn Callaghan and Ronan Sweeney should count for something especially considering they played under Mick O'Dwyer and through the bad years.

castletownman

I think it's fitting that in the week after one of the most absorbing footballing spectacles of all-time that McGeeney gets the sack,considering the fact that he would be one of the biggest exponents of the "graft over craft" philosophy.

Not taking away how far he has taken Kildare, but a few incidents that happened during his tenure didn't endear him to me. Neither did the slight over-rating of Kildare by the media.

VONSHIRACH

Certainly McGeeney's Kildare failed to win the Leinster Senior FC or the AI. If you cannot win a LSFC you are not a serious AI contender. On that basis, he was unsuccessful, ie a failure. But many and most Kildare teams in modern times have failed before McGeeney's tenure. You cannot win titles however if you do not have the footballers who can outscore and outdefend opponents. You can do all the hard physical stuff, but its football abilty at the end of the day. You have to call a spade a spade. Its just a perpetual false dawn with Kildare. Even Laois and Westmeath have won Leinster titles more recently than Kildare.

People like Jimmy McGuinness, Mickey Harte, Pat Gilroy, Conor Counihan and now Jim Gavin are/were successful. How can McGeeney be deemed a success in Kildare?

Lemlin

klairondavis wrote: »

It's probably something that's unfairly thrown at a lot of counties that have failed to get over the line when it matters. Some of the Kildare support can get a bit carried away at small successes (see Leinster Minor and u21 wins this year) but that's only natural for a football mad yet success starved county. It's a similar story in Mayo, Cavan, Roscommon, Limerick (hurling) and Waterford (hurling). I don't think that over-excitement should be confused with unrealistic expectations. I didn't encounter a single Kildare supporter who thought we would get close to Dublin this year and the majority in Newbridge expected Tyrone to beat us.

In fairness I'd have to disagree. I remember having a chat with ye lads on the Kildare thread back during the league around March and ye really rated yourselves.

I said at the time that Tyrone were a better team and they have since beaten ye in League and Championship.

Hammar

McGeeney's reign with Kildare in my opinion has to be deemed as a success.
He took over a team going nowhere,and reached one all semi-final and, and 4/5 All Ireland quarter finals. They had rotten luck in that they were robbed by a horrendeous square ball decision in that semi-final against Down and they had a ridiculous free given against them in the 2011 Leinster semi final for a "phantom" foul which handed the game to Dublin. The questions of course are could he take them from where they are within the top 6-10 teams onto the level which Dublin and Mayo and perhaps Kerry are operating at. I have my doubts,and Kildare GAA people whom i've spoken to,have those same doubts. Perhaps a bit of freshness and some new ideas could be just whats needed to push Kildare over that hurdle.

klairondavis

Lemlin wrote: »

In fairness I'd have to disagree. I remember having a chat with ye lads on the Kildare thread back during the league around March and ye really rated yourselves.

I said at the time that Tyrone were a better team and they have since beaten ye in League and Championship.

Hmmm, weren't we beaten out the gate by Dublin in Croke Park back in March? No one with any ounce of cop on truly believed that result could be turned completely on its head in three months.

No doubt Tyrone are a bit further on than Kildare but the gap between the two is hardly that significant on the evidence of this year. 4 points in the league semi final and 2 points in the qualifiers.

kencoo

success. We were within shouting distance of AI final and semi finals (i.e. one point) during his command. Despite the sniping we were very consistent which is more that can be said for other teams of the same ability - no world beaters. There were weaknesses however i would have been surprised if any other manager could have got us to where we actually did.
Yes the team has gone downhill since 2010 which is disappointing however there were a rake of good u21s brought in this/last year so success cant be immediate. at the moment kildare wouldnt get near an AI - however i would be hopeful that in 2/3 years that we will be in touching distance again providing the younger players step up- i think thats alot less likely now that geezer is gone...

Tristram

iDave wrote: »

Talk about setting a low bar.

The bar was buried so deeply in the ground in terms of Kildare football no-one knew it existed. I think anyone who has watched/watches Kildare club football would know that McGeeney did one hell of a job transforming Kildare into a competitive outfit. It's just unfortunate that alongside the improvement on an inter-county level came a whole lot of bandwagoners who feel some sense of entitlement to be winning Leinsters and All-Irelands when the simple truth is that Kildare don't have the players for it.

I'm looking forward to seeing posters reaction when a new man is brought in for Kildare's "Great Leap Forward".

Tristram

Don't know if Barney Rock would be interested or the answer. Think about the type of football Celbridge were playing when coached them to a senior title and ask yourself if that's what you think will bring success at inter-county level. I think the apparent lack of a quality replacement is part of my problem with Kildare getting rid of McGeeney now.

Who is out there that people think would bring Kildare on from where McGeeney has brought them?

Stoner

klairondavis wrote: »

Hmmm, weren't we beaten out the gate by Dublin in Croke Park back in March? No one with any ounce of cop on truly believed that result could be turned completely on its head in three months.

No doubt Tyrone are a bit further on than Kildare but the gap between the two is hardly that significant on the evidence of this year. 4 points in the league semi final and 2 points in the qualifiers.

I agree the steam was gone a bit out of Kildare this year, but every other year there was hope from kildare supporters, they had plenty of decent runs and were considered contenders most years as say the number 5 team. They could really have done with a bit of luck over the past few years, I think that is what I take from it looking back, Kildare were a little unlucky more so than successful or unsuccessful.

Red Crow

premierstone wrote: »

Really , maybe this is the problem, the lack of reality from Kildare supporters, 3 Leinster titles in the last 78 years and they see McGeaney as a failure for reaching 5 AI QF's and 1 Semi final. Kildare's loss will very much be someone elses gain.

Yep that is certainly the case. The players themselves didnt want to see him go.

Stoner

premierstone wrote: »

Really , maybe this is the problem, the lack of reality from Kildare supporters, 3 Leinster titles in the last 78 years and they see McGeaney as a failure

Not really fair IMO, can we assume that they won 4 leinster titles in 79 years, that's one of those worst case stats.
What difference does the teams performance 20,30,40,50,60,70,80 years ago have on the current squad. Kildare supporters had high expectations because they had a decent team, and they support their team very well, they had some hype in there but it was not all their own doing. They had one if the best forwards, midfielders and centre back in the country 3 years ago and were entitled to hope for success. Far better position to be in than letting an 80 year old drummed up stat limit your expectations.
Kildare were right to have had hope and high expectations, they had some decent players and were well prepared in what we all thought was the way to prepare a modern team.
Plus they had savage unity and a bond with their manager that I would call second to none in that time period.

Hammer Archer

I remember Meath playing Kildare in Leinster the year before McGeeney took charge and remember thinking I'd never seen a Kildare team roll over as pathetically as I did that day. So in terms of lifting Kildare from the doldrums of Leinster, he was certainly a success.
But to only reach a single Leinster final in his 6 seasons has to count as a partial failure. Especially as Kildare were on the so called "easier" side of the draw (i.e. they couldn't meet Dublin until the final) on four occasions during his tenure.
He did great things for Kildare's fitness but tactically he is very poor which is most likely why he has never beaten a so-called top team.

Ceist_Beag

First 4 years - success. Last 2 years - failure.
He brought them a long way in the firs 4 years but the team has not only not progressed in the past two years, they have gone backwards. It also has to be remembered that McGeeney got the absolute best support possible for the county team - I think financially they were one of the biggest spenders in the country - maybe others can correct me on that if I'm wrong! I think with the crop of young talent coming through it was the right time to look at getting a new man in.

DoctaDee

Yeah agree with most of what's being said ... I think in retrospect the pivotal moment for McGeeney and Kildare in general was the 2011 loss to Donegal .. a match tbh they let slip big time.

The puncture to their confidence was repaired but never really fixed .. 2012 threatened in the qualifiers to be another good run until they reached the business end and failed to show up against Cork. 2013 championship was terrible .. on the upside the new man will have a squad in Div 1 of the league to plot their improvement.

Moneymaker

Has to be said though Kildare did suffer some atrocious luck.

Robbed of a draw by a handy free a few years ago vs Dublin. I remember feeling sick for them and i'm a Dub!

Crossbar away from beating Down in 2010.

Then the quarter final vs Donegal, yes they threw the game away but some of Donegal's 'tactics' during that game left a taste in the mouth.

rebel girl 15

Has to be measured as a success from where he brought the team until now. The work he has put in with the under 21's now to secure the future of Kildare football has gone slightly under the radar, and they now have a conveyor belt of players coming through. He apparently was instrumental in getting new sponsors on board, using his profile to do so but in a quiet way.

Teams can have lull years, but the reaction of the players so publicly tells the whole story. The amount of sacrifices that intercounty players have to make, they would have been the first to come out and say if he wasn't right - it may have meant new selectors or a fresh voice somewhere to help.

The vote was on whether McGeeney went forward for a further term, which was defeated. I presume the process now is that names will be put forward for the management position - what is stopping McGeeney from putting his name forward again? From what I heard, he was set to step down anyway but the players convinced him to stay on.

Lemlin

klairondavis wrote: »

Hmmm, weren't we beaten out the gate by Dublin in Croke Park back in March? No one with any ounce of cop on truly believed that result could be turned completely on its head in three months.

No doubt Tyrone are a bit further on than Kildare but the gap between the two is hardly that significant on the evidence of this year. 4 points in the league semi final and 2 points in the qualifiers.

That discussion was just before the Dublin game. It may even have been February. I'm not going to search the thread for the posts anyway.

On the night in question though yourself and a number of posters argued that Kildare would beat Tyrone. I said they would not and Tyrone have beaten them twice since, whatever the score difference. Ye also argued that Kildare should be seen as a top six team with Dublin, Mayo, Donegal, Tyrone, Kerry and Cork.

I think one of the things that Kildare supporters need to drop is this notion of 'well we only lost by...' or 'a bad call caused' or 'we've had bad luck'.

Top teams make their own luck and top teams grind out a result in the end. Kildare have had many chances (Dublin in the Leinster final, Down in 2010, Donegal in 2011, even Tyrone this year) and they've failed to push on when a game was there for the taking.

McGeeney has brought the county forward IMO but in six years in charge Kildare have not defeated a top level team in the Championship. For the effort and dedication he has coerced, demaned or requested (whatever way you want to put it) from his players, I think that record has to be questioned.

klairondavis

Lemlin wrote: »

McGeeney has brought the county forward IMO but in six years in charge Kildare have not defeated a top level team in the Championship. For the effort and dedication he has coerced, demaned or requested (whatever way you want to put it) from his players, I think that record has to be questioned.

Coerced? You were doing a good job of hiding your bitterness up until then. I don't really see the point of replying to you on Kildare related topics anymore.

prospect

The only way to know if his term was a success is to know what goals the County Board set for him.

If he was given the target of getting into Div 1 and to blood young players (U21 title), then yes his term was a success.

If his goal was to win a Leinster SF title no matter what, then he failed.



So, unless you know his targets you cannot really determine his level of success.

Lemlin

klairondavis wrote: »

Coerced? You were doing a good job of hiding your bitterness up until then. I don't really see the point of replying to you on Kildare related topics anymore.

Bit of an overreaction there tbh. Perhaps I'm using the wrong word, change it to persuasion if ya like.

To coerce - To force to act or think in a certain way by use of pressure, threats, or intimidation; compel.

For me, most GAA managers use coercion and threats. Even my own at club level threatened players. For example, why was Sean Hurley dropped from the panel for attending Oxegen? That to me is coercion. He was dropped because he did what he wanted and didn't follow the manager's orders.

It also sends a message to the other players. Do what is expected of you or you're off the panel. Is that not coercing someone?

I don't see the problem with the word to be honest.

You Kildare lads are all too fond of throwing out the bias line when someone gives a fair argument. I used to hear the same from the Dublin lads on here when I said Whelan and the lads of the noughties were overrated. Now it's a generally accepted fact they were.

Ignore that line of my post if you like and concentrate on the rest. I will even edit the word if it pleases you. I really think you're overreacting though.

Crash Bang Wall

I would agrue that his success would be based on what he got out of the team & players available to him, and the best people to judge that are the Kildare people who know their club as well as County Football. Watching the club football scene would give people a good grasp at whats available, and what can be achievable.

If for arguments sake Longford get a new manager, and hes told he has to win a Leinster title within 3 years and he doesnt, then in theory hes a failure but realistically its not really a viable target.

From watching the footballl scene in Cavan over the last number of years, the only managers that can be deemed a success is McHugh and Hyland. Hyland is over achieving with the players he has IMO, and McHugh got as much as anyone could have out of the panel of players he had available. I dont base it on targets, I base it on what they got out of the players avaiable

premierstone

Crash Bang Wall wrote: »

If for arguments sake Longford get a new manager, and hes told he has to win a Leinster title within 3 years and he doesnt, then in theory hes a failure but realistically its not really a viable target.

This sums up the issue perfectly tbh.

VONSHIRACH

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-football/ian-mallon-time-for-kildare-stars-to-realise-player-power-brings-likely-failure-29555722.html

premierstone

VONSHIRACH wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-football/ian-mallon-time-for-kildare-stars-to-realise-player-power-brings-likely-failure-29555722.html

He is having a go at Kildare players for not delivering on the pitch and not doing their jobs, fcuk me the irony is incredible considering he is supposed to be an objective journalist writing in a national paper and has written one of the most one-sided articles you are ever likely to read.

As for player power this is the exact opposite to player power, they want McGeaney, the County board wanted to keep him, but in their wisdom the clubs decided they know best, its ludicrous and quite frankly irresponsible of them.

VONSHIRACH

The breakdown of the voting is interesting, with variations between the clubs. Some CB officers voted for change, most notably the Treasurer.

http://www.kildare-nationalist.ie/2013/09/05/way-voting-went/


Here is what Eugene McGee had to say.....

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-football/eugene-mcgee-kildare-players-should-stop-publicityseeking-or-damaging-rift-will-widen-29554281.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

premierstone

Looking at that breakdown of votes is alarming - Hurling Clubs, Handball Clubs, Referees, Leinster Delegates, Irish officers etc voting on the Senior Football manager's position, you couldn't make it up tbh.

klairondavis

4 of the hurling clubs actually voted for his retention - Broadford, Coill Dubh, Éire Óg and Naas. If the hurling clubs did not have a vote the motion would have been defeated by more!

premierstone

klairondavis wrote: »

4 of the hurling clubs actually voted for his retention - Broadford, Coill Dubh, Éire Óg and Naas. If the hurling clubs did not have a vote the motion would have been defeated by more!

It doesn't alter the fact that they should not have a vote, infact the very idea of the clubs having a vote at all is ludicrous.

A much fairer way would be to have an independent committe established, a committee that could include a rep on behalf of all the clubs if neccessary, another representing the players and another representing the County Board.

Lemlin

premierstone wrote: »

He is having a go at Kildare players for not delivering on the pitch and not doing their jobs, fcuk me the irony is incredible considering he is supposed to be an objective journalist writing in a national paper and has written one of the most one-sided articles you are ever likely to read.

As for player power this is the exact opposite to player power, they want McGeaney, the County board wanted to keep him, but in their wisdom the clubs decided they know best, its ludicrous and quite frankly irresponsible of them.

Who said he's meant to be objective though? He's said he's giving his opinion, albeit negative, and has pointed out that he has this view as a Kildare man.

I think it is an attempt at player power. Would the players not be better off just keeping their mouths shut or even appoint a spokesperson e.g. the captain? Respect needs to be earned and these lads have won nothing.

VONSHIRACH

The Kildare players have issued a statement, apparently exclusively to KFM Radio. I havn't heard or read it yet. According to KFM, they want the decision overturned.

klairondavis

premierstone wrote: »

It doesn't alter the fact that they should not have a vote, infact the very idea of the clubs having a vote at all is ludicrous.

A much fairer way would be to have an independent committe established, a committee that could include a rep on behalf of all the clubs if neccessary, another representing the players and another representing the County Board.

To be honest I don't have a major problem with the clubs having a vote on it but it's emerging now that some club delegates voted despite their clubs not holding a meeting before Tuesday's county board meeting That's a ridiculous situation.

My own club voted in favour but the delegate from our hurling club is listed as absent.

klairondavis

I would not pay any attention to Ian Mallon. He was posting stuff on twitter last year that he had "heard" from his sources in the Kildare panel. It was mostly nonsense.

migemo

Sad. That kildare fans think THAT was a success. Sad. Not 1 decent result against a decent team. No mystique as why ye only have 3 leinsters in 70 odd yrs. The bar is still low. Only for the back door giving a slightly better reflection on Mcgeeney reign it would be obvious to kildare like it is to the rest of us that absolutely nothing was achieved. Take the back door results against 3rd tier teams out of the equation and look at what you're left with.

Warper

Obv failure imo, regressing

Poor_old_gill

Have the Kildare county board not spent crazy amounts of money in funding his preparation plans?
Or am I completely wrong? That was my understanding of their debt situation

rpurfield

premierstone wrote: »

Looking at that breakdown of votes is alarming - Hurling Clubs, Handball Clubs, Referees, Leinster Delegates, Irish officers etc voting on the Senior Football manager's position, you couldn't make it up tbh.

yeah the democratic nature of the gaa is awful isnt it. your in the same boat as the panel who have accused the club delegates of looking to their interests over the county!!i always thought that was the point of club delegates was to represent their clubs interests!!