TGC Feedback Thread *Closes September 25th 9pm*

BonsaiKitten

The Corinthian wrote: »

I totally accept that. Problem is that much of what is being discussed is related to moderator decisions and interpretations and how these are negatively impacting on the forum in some cases. Whenever such actions are questioned we are bluntly told this is forbidden - even in this feedback thread and they are part of that feedback.

So if I go into detail, without being told it's OK for me to do so, I could well be sanctioned and I'd rather not.

I see where you're coming from. But imo there is a difference between feedback on a specific issue in a thread - in which case you take it to PM as per usual - and the general feedback being asked for here, which can be backed up by examples, while not being a place to air grievances about "the time *insert poster here* said *insert thing thing* and *such a thing* did/didn't happen."

Not that I'm saying that's what was being done btw but I do think there is a place here to highlight examples.

The Corinthian

D'Agger wrote: »

You're simply being asked to take it to PM, this isn't a new concept, if you have questions on mod decisions, take them to the mods and discuss them free of fear seeing as it's not on the thread.

Are you saying that discussing mod decisions, as part of feedback here, have no place here and should be kept to PM's?

BonsaiKitten wrote: »

Not that I'm saying that's what was being done btw but I do think there is a place here to highlight examples.

I completely agree with you. Thing is, I'm not sure that the moderators, or at least some of them, would agree with you.

Maguined

Actually that is something I would like in the long run.

Would the mods allow one stickied thread in the forum that is used for appealing or clarifying all mod decisions made within the forum?

As it is a completely separate thread this will not disrupt the actual discussion threads. I can only guess but I would assume PM'ing users in response to mod decisions is quite the chore and having a thread would make it easier for other mods to provide a response rather than relying specifically on the mod that enforced any decision.

This would provide more transparency and clarification on rules for all users rather than the private PM function so only 1 user garners greater detail. It spreads the workload for the admins easier which would probably also result in quicker responses for users and as its a stickied thread would provide permanent clarification rather than one off private PM's.

Sacksian

Apologies for butting in but, as a lurker, I'd say browbeating in this context is characterised by an "overbearing" posting style. Some posting styles in this forum do come across as unnecessarily antagonistic to the neutral reader.

It's quite obvious - to me, at least - what that means but I agree with the poster above that this is covered by the "don't be a dick" rule.

Apart from that, it seems a shame that, if you look at the majority of thread titles, the whole forum just seems irredeemably negative and has somehow ended up as a weird gender conspiracy theory forum.

Maguined

Sacksian wrote: »

Apart from that, it seems a shame that, if you look at the majority of thread titles, the whole forum just seems irredeemably negative and has somehow ended up as a weird gender conspiracy theory forum.

Where you see negative I see interesting debate.

Of course people will have their own personal tastes about topics they are interested in the question is what do you do about it.

Would you prefer such threads that you feel are negative to be banned from the forum just so those that do not enjoy such discussions don't have to see them?

There are many threads that I view as negative and have no interest going on in this forum however I believe those threads have a right to exist as other users enjoy them.

Henry9

Maguined wrote: »

Off the top of my head it normally happens that while discussing mens rights someone will criticise feminism for effectively blocking mens rights, this is generally fine and accepted but then another poster will complain about the criticism of feminism and defend it saying it is about equality. Generally then if posters respond with further criticism of feminism and make the point that it is not about equality at all but only about furthering womens rights at the expense of men and never vice versa this is when I have seen mod intervention stating feminism is off topic and posts deleted.

Agreed. I don't see how you can separate the two issues as they are so entwined.

The other thing I don't understand is the phobia around 'whataboutery'.
Once a poster questions the ideology behind feminism they will be asked to provide examples. If they are produced someone for sure will play the 'whataboutery' card.

Sacksian wrote: »

Apologies for butting in but, as a lurker, I'd say browbeating in this context is characterised by an "overbearing" posting style.

Depends what you mean. Sometimes in response to an argument a poster will launch into a thorough dissection of their point. To some this comes across as 'overbearing' or 'nit picking'.
But maybe it just means some people don't like their opinion to be contradicted.
I would rather err on the debating style of argument than the 'this is true because it is how I feel' style.

I also don't understand the fear around something being OT. Conversations naturally evolve and different posters come and go. I don't think the thread title should be considered a binding contract.
If the conversation moves in another direction and the discussion is reasonable, what's the big deal?

Sure there are some gender warriors knocking about. But if someone is out of line there are already ways of dealing with them.
You can claim these things shouldn't descend into 'men vs women', but it's hard to see how you can avoid an element of that.
I can think of 4 other forums here where similar arguments come up, where the same battle is being fought by proxy. Two of them in a big way.

D'Agger

*We're going to leave the thread open for another 24 hours or so and we'll close it for good then.

See below and raise any concerns you may/may not have.

Off Topic Posts:
Please do not reply to an Off Topic post On Thread as this may be seen as an attempt by you to continue the Off Topic Discussion. You are therefore seen as encouraging Off Topic Discussion and are therefore just as liable to be actioned against.


Fashion:
A general discussion thread about fashion will be allowed. (ie. you spotted a good bargain, you want to throw up a pic and get an opinion etc etc) For Specific fashion advice (ie where can I get a suit in Dublin for a wedding) we would recommend using the Fashion and Appearances forum.


Arguing with a Mod Decision:
Arguing with a Mod on thread is not allowed and may be actioned against.


Serious Discussion Threads:
The general Mod rule of thumb for these threads will be:
We will allow discussion, but we are not here to protect you.
Generalisations against either of the sexes are a massive "No No"
Off Topic posts are a massive "no no"
Gerneralisations/ off topic posts/ responding to off topic posts may be infractable.


threads less going forward will be moved - unless it is blatantly outside the scope of this forum.
Women can, and are encouraged to participate in the discussions on this forum (and always will be). The exact same rules apply to women as to men and they will be enforced exactly the same.
Feminism is allowed to be discussed and criticised here. Any discussion should be constructive - well reasoned and valid. People are of course allowed to argue in favour of feminism, and to defend it with equally constructive posts but posts like 'women have it worse' will not be tolerated.
Please keep threads topical - open a new thread for different issues. this makes participation easier and makes following the conversation easier.


Online Dating Discussion:
Online Dating is catered for via a Private Group. It will not be discussed here.
To join the Group you must contact the Hoasted Mods: knucklehead6, miamee, Sparky

In addition to this we would like to address two other proposed changes:


We have taken the proposed browbeating rule out of the charter based on the feedback received on the thread over the past few days.

All mods have discussed the proposed idea for a thread to discuss mod decisions in the forum and we have decided to not go ahead with this for a number of reasons.

1) There's an existing procedure for boards for issues with moderator decisions and that is PM the mod/mods, if you are unhappy with the feedback then contact the category mod, failing that, bring it to the helpdesk. Our thoughts are, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. This procedure seems to be working for multiple other forums on boards, and we believe it works for us as a group of moderators.

2) We believe that mod decisions may involve either a single posters behaviour or the behaviour of a number of other posters, along with sensitive conversation subject matter - we feel that keeping the discussion of mod decisions should be kept to Private Message for this reason - it allows for franker conversation and based on that, one should hope, a speedier resolution.

We are going to leave the thread open for another 24 hours or so and then close it out so let us know if you feel the charter requires any further changes, let us know if you're happy with the charter ammendments or not etc.

Again, A big thank you to everybody for their efforts, thoughts and points over the time the thread has been active.

Maguined

Can my proposed mod decisions thread not be done in addition to the regular procedure rather than replacing it? I never though of replacing the current procedure as that is a boards wide procedure, I meant the thread as a supplemental way of users to understand and learn from moderators decisions.

So the decisions goes about it's normal routine however the results or summary of such could be put on the stickied thread so all could learn from it.

For example The Corinthian had a warning against him on this Feedback thread that I do not honestly understand. I am not arguing the decision I merely want to understand it. As I am not privy (nor should I) to any PM's between the mods and The Corinthian I am left not understanding the current decision and so the interpretation of the rules have become muddled to me.

If there was a stickied thread where I could quote the decision from the thread and ask the mods to explain the reasoning for the ruling even if it takes a couple of posts back and forth it would give myself and any other users better transparency and clarification of the rules.

As an addition rather than a replacement I can only see an advantage to this and nothing to lose over the current process.

awec

This post has been deleted.

Maguined

awec wrote: »

There will be no such thread created - that idea is a non-starter.

Any chance of a reason rather than a statement?

BonsaiKitten

Maguined wrote: »

Any chance of a reason rather than a statement?

I have to admit I could see that thread ending in a disaster - well intentioned yes but I'd imagine it could easily turn into an endless row between posters and the mods.

Maguined

BonsaiKitten wrote: »

I have to admit I could see that thread ending in a disaster - well intentioned yes but I'd imagine it could easily turn into an endless row between posters and the mods.

It would be the same as pming the mod about any decision so they will explain it in further detail but if the poster keeps endlessly rowing the mod will just stop and its concluded. The mods would be under no obligation to answer anything in the thread it would only be an option for the mods to show how the rules work as many posters have said in the feedback thread how unclear they are about what's acceptable so this would help with that.

awec

This post has been deleted.

Maguined

awec wrote: »

The reason's D'Agger outlined. There are adequate procedures in place already if someone wants mod clarification - every dispute being aired in public would add nothing constructive whatsoever.

D'agger explained why the suggestion is not a good idea as a replacement to the dispute resolution system. The idea is not as a replacement for dispute resolution but as rules clarification for transparency.

I don't think I am the only one in this thread that has asked for more transparency and rules clarification. I don't think the proposed rules changes address this point at all. Do the mods disagree and feel nothing further can be done to improve on this or is it something you are still looking into?

awec

This post has been deleted.

P_1

Maguined wrote: »

D'agger explained why the suggestion is not a good idea as a replacement to the dispute resolution system. The idea is not as a replacement for dispute resolution but as rules clarification for transparency.

I don't think I am the only one in this thread that has asked for more transparency and rules clarification. I don't think the proposed rules changes address this point at all. Do the mods disagree and feel nothing further can be done to improve on this or is it something you are still looking into?

It's a noble idea but sadly I can only see such a thread becoming a bitching session against the mods to be honest. You might get a few decent posts in it but I'd imagine the majority would be the same repetitive annoying rantings.

Maguined

P_1 wrote: »

It's a noble idea but sadly I can only see such a thread becoming a bitching session against the mods to be honest. You might get a few decent posts in it but I'd imagine the majority would be the same repetitive annoying rantings.

It would only become a bitching session if the mods allowed it to be. It is not a resolution thread, no mod decisions would be reversed, it is simply an explanation for clarity. If a user starts bitching the mods warn them just like they can on any other thread.

The mods set the rules so the thread can be as restricted or as free as the mods desire so I don't understand the automatic assumption it would turn into a bitching session or a time sink.

It could be introduced in its most restrictive form as a trial period and if successful great, if it goes badly it can just be removed and the trial considered a failure which I think is a better course of action then not bothering at all.

P_1

Maguined wrote: »

It would only become a bitching session if the mods allowed it to be. It is not a resolution thread, no mod decisions would be reversed, it is simply an explanation for clarity. If a user starts bitching the mods warn them just like they can on any other thread.

The mods set the rules so the thread can be as restricted or as free as the mods desire so I don't understand the automatic assumption it would turn into a bitching session or a time sink.

It could be introduced in its most restrictive form as a trial period and if successful great, if it goes badly it can just be removed and the trial considered a failure which I think is a better course of action then not bothering at all.

I'm guessing that you picture it acting as a form of proactive modding? Basically a user posts 'what did I do wrong and how can I avoid doing it in the future' with the mod replying 'you did x, that's not acceptable because of y', which could potentially leave the lads with less work to do in the long run.

Sadly from experience on boards what will probably tend to happen is we'll see users posting 'Mod x, WTF man, this is bollox, you're a nasty so-and-so', mods having to snip posts/ban posters etc and it generally creating a nasty vibe about the place.

Maguined

P_1 wrote: »

I'm guessing that you picture it acting as a form of proactive modding? Basically a user posts 'what did I do wrong and how can I avoid doing it in the future' with the mod replying 'you did x, that's not acceptable because of y', which could potentially leave the lads with less work to do in the long run.

The resolution of any disputes between the user and the mod in question will always follow the normal process so I wouldn't imagine that specific user in question also posting in such a thread as the mods would immediately tell them to read the PM's and to escalate any further dispute to the Cmods.

This would primarily involve other users, If I see mod action enforced on another poster but don't understand it then having the tread for clarification would be better than PM'ing the mod as a public explanation would be better for the community than a private individual one.

P_1 wrote: »

Sadly from experience on boards what will probably tend to happen is we'll see users posting 'Mod x, WTF man, this is bollox, you're a nasty so-and-so', mods having to snip posts/ban posters etc and it generally creating a nasty vibe about the place.

I don't understand this reasoning as you could say the same applies to any mod decision on any thread. Any poster abusing a mod by name calling will be actioned against on any thread.

Just because it would be a thread for providing explanation does not mean all the rules are thrown out and you can pester, blame and insult the mods to your hearts content.

Basically any behaviour that is currently considered acceptable for me to PM and question a mod would be the exact same for the thread and by making it public rather than 1 person receiving clarification for any issue the entire community could receive clarification.

P_1

Fair enough, the thing is there's already such a mechanism on the site for other users to see where someone has gone wrong if mod action is needed. When you see a yellow or red card under a post by clicking on it you can see why the mod action was taken. Maybe a better solution might be for the mods to include a clear message as to what was wrong with the post in that field rather than just leaving it blank?

Maguined

P_1 wrote: »

Fair enough, the thing is there's already such a mechanism on the site for other users to see where someone has gone wrong if mod action is needed. When you see a yellow or red card under a post by clicking on it you can see why the mod action was taken. Maybe a better solution might be for the mods to include a clear message as to what was wrong with the post in that field rather than just leaving it blank?

Yeah if that was properly filled in there would never be a problem. My issue is that frequently a statement is made rather than an explanation of a reason. This is not the mods fault necessarily, they are used to enforcing the rules so their intrepretation is more natural for them so I can easily see why they would resort to simply quoting the rule as they feel it is sufficient. However sometimes this is not sufficient so further clarification would be great.

I don't want to use any mod decision as an example so I will use this Feedback thread instead.

When I first raised this point it received two responses from the mods.

D'Agger wrote: »

All mods have discussed the proposed idea for a thread to discuss mod decisions in the forum and we have decided to not go ahead with this for a number of reasons.

1) There's an existing procedure for boards for issues with moderator decisions and that is PM the mod/mods, if you are unhappy with the feedback then contact the category mod, failing that, bring it to the helpdesk. Our thoughts are, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. This procedure seems to be working for multiple other forums on boards, and we believe it works for us as a group of moderators.

2) We believe that mod decisions may involve either a single posters behaviour or the behaviour of a number of other posters, along with sensitive conversation subject matter - we feel that keeping the discussion of mod decisions should be kept to Private Message for this reason - it allows for franker conversation and based on that, one should hope, a speedier resolution.

awec wrote: »

There will be no such thread created - that idea is a non-starter.

The first response states the mods have decided against the idea but then explains the reasoning why.

The second response states the mods have decided against the idea but gives no explanation.

On a feedback thread it doesn't really matter but when it comes to actual mod decisions on threads I think explanations and clarity are paramount so I think some sort of change would be beneficial.

Panthro

In before the lock tonight,
Cheers for the input to the majority of ye fine folks, an insightful thread it's been. Hopefully a new era of love and peace and harmony is just around the corner!:pac:
Panthro