TGC Feedback Thread *Closes September 25th 9pm*

D'Agger

Okay Guys,

It's that time of year when we look to get some feedback on the forum from the people who use it most.

Ideally we'd like to try to keep it to one post per person on what they feel could help improve things around here, although feedback on other users ideas is also welcomed, so we're going to go with the following rules to start with:


1) Scapegoating and singling out of users is not on - if you feel a user is posting in a poor fashion on the forum, report the post/s you take issue with

2) Respond in a constructive manner or don't post - it's really that simple, witty one liners can hold off for other threads on other days, if you don't agree with somebody, try to improve their idea rather than tastelessly dismiss it and offer no alternative.

3) If you like an idea - thank it, we'll be looking over the thread after we close it and will be taking how popular ideas are with other forum users, into consideration


Try to keep it clean please.

sam34

man, I am soooooo tempted to troll this thread :pac:

Panthro

@Sam..
Go ahead pilgrim...make my Millennium...

awec

This post has been deleted.

Maguined

This will probably come across as quite negative but it genuinely is not my intention.

I used to post more frequently in TGC but I very rarely post any more and for me that reason is that I do not know what TGC is anymore.

Most forums have a general purpose and then a community of regular posters build up around that purpose. TGC seems to have a small community existing but without any real purpose.

Again this is all my own personal views on the place but when I do come into TGC for a read I generally see the below tyes of threads.

1. Health stuff which gets broken down into serious questions that get locked as you have to go to a doctor for medical advice or very simple questions that get answered and so the thread is resolved quite quickly and not something that specifically needs to be in TGC and could quite easily of been posted in other forums

2. Fashion/Apperance threads whether thats what shops to go to or shaving etc. Again not much of a debate, generally resolved pretty quickly and not something that specifically needs to be in TGC and could quite easily of been posted in other forums.

3. Men's rights threads which historically the TGC mods in the past hated and clamped down on pretty excessively in my own personal opinion and seem to be somewhat tolerated now even if somewhat reluctantly. These tend to be the only threads that to me make sense to be in TGC as opposed to other forums which is somewhat ironic as I still think most TGC mods would prefer if those threads just died off so they didn't have to worry about them.

4. Chat threads, these are the threads that all froums have to build a sense of community amongst the regular posters that is always allowed exist off topic and out of bounds of the normal charter, these threads would never be allowed to be posted eslewhere as they are inherently just for the forums community without directly contributing to the purpose of the forums charter.

Types 1 & 2 do not build a community, 3 is a community the "regulars" do not particularly want or encourage and 4 is only self fulfilling which is why I view TGC as a small social community forum that only exists for it's general chat threads and is not really living up to it's already vague charter.

This is also why I think after 2 days no one has offered any feedback, no one knows how to improve TGC when no one really knows what TGC is?

Rather than asking what the "regulars" want to improve the forum I think a more important question is what do the mods feel TGC is about?

The charter states: "This forum is for discussion on any issue relating to general men's health, mental health, sexual health, the role of men in modern society, the pressures on men to succeed and anything else related to being a man."

That might be it's stated purpose but for me when I hear TGC all I think about is just a chat thread and unwanted men's rights threads.

This is not an attack on any of the mods as I think this is something that has built up and has been continuing for years.

Liam McPoyle

Personally, the forum has changed over the last while and not for the better mostly

There are 2 main reasons as I see it.

1) The closure of the online dating thread and subsequent starting of the OD forum.

First off, I still think the closing of the thread In here was the right decision as it had completely morphed from its original purpose into a catch all for OD related things.

The downside of it closing is that it did attract a huge amount of views and passers by who then got used to the forum and joined in with other threads, attended beers etc. Posters were able to "meet and greet" forum regulars and integrate into the forum relatively easily as there was a common ground which isn't there anymore.

2) The changing of social groups into forums.

There was a change recently that all active social groups were transformed into hosted forums which has resulted in a huge amount of private/invite only forums been created, this has resulted in a lot of people posting in there as opposed to on open forums.

3) "Men's" threads.

Over the last while there has been a marked increase in the amount of male related issues threads. By and large these are populated by the same handful of posters and if someone comes in with a differing opinion on a number if occasions I've seen people been nit picked and brow beaten into submission until they stop posting.

This has resulted in ( I feel ) a lot of the goodwill and friendly atmosphere we once had here evaporating in a cloud of self righteousness.

I know I'm as guilty as anyone in that I don't post in here all that much anymore and that a forum is built in the members contributions but I'm at the stage that I've lost the interest that I've had and find myself throwing my eyes up to heaven and moving on rather than trying to debate or get involved in most of the threads in here.

Panthro

Excellent feedback so far folks, cheers.
Suggestions on what thread to keep/let go/limit outright ban/outright welcome etc?

D'Agger

Mags, with regard to the purpose of the forum, I would have always thought that it was a place for men to discuss tastes mainly - alcohol, music, fashion etc. without ever infringing on forums like the Fashion & Appearance or Facial Hair and Hats forums. Any threads that seem to infringe on that (i.e. looking for in depth detail) would be moved.

As CS has said - recently there seems to be a rise of mens rights and men vs. feminism styled threads which are difficult to moderate as they have a tendance to degrade into threads where the content isn't put first, rather one-man-up-ship and forcing of points across. It seems, from somebody trying to be impartial, that the threads end up turning into a 'whoever shouts the loudest wins' type scenario more often than not.

Do they have a place in TGC - yes, but it has become a less hospitable forum as a result of them and I think we should look to keep the number of new threads created for similar issues down, and look to have one or two main threads such as the Mens Rights thread.

After that, an idea for a thread could be a TGC suits thread where people can put up pics of themselves, look for advice on what to buy, accesorize etc. - I don't think that'd be infringing on the Fashion forum, while providing some gents here with some advice when needed.

Maguined

Panthro wrote: »

Excellent feedback so far folks, cheers.
Suggestions on what thread to keep/let go/limit outright ban/outright welcome etc?

What does TGC want to be though? The Charter is outdated, all the health stuff does not really belong here as there are either better forums or it's advice you should receive from the doctors.

I agree with Coleman that the removal of the Online Dating was technically the right move as it was not specifically TGC related it was also really one of the only unique things to TGC so it's removal has masively reduced footfall into TGC and from that point of view I think it was a mistake to remove it.

The only other TGC specific stuff is the men's rights stuff which as I said does not really seem to be wanted by the chat thread regulars or the mods really. I also agree with Coleman that it is generally the same few posters that post in these topics the difference is that I think this is perfectly fine and natural. You find this across all different forums on boards though, the truly passionate in a topic will always contribute the most and regularly to this topic and that is a good thing. I just ordered myself a new PC last night, I went onto the upgrading and modding forum and asked for someone to recommend me a build, a very helpful user posted up a suggestion and this same user does it for the vast majority of people. His contributions are so regular and respected due that on most threads other posters even say "wait till X gets here, here will recommend you something good".

TGC is effectively a private social forum for general chats amongst a small community that just happens to be public rather than private. The only way to change this in my mind to define a new purpose for TGC. Currently the only unique and charter fulfilling topics the Men's Right's stuff is shunned by the mods and the "regulars" despite it being the most applicable so I think the forum should either embrace these topics fully and encourage them or else think of an entirely new purpose for TGC as realistically I don't much see anything else truly working.

TGC currently offers Chats that you can get better in private forums, quickfire topics and questions that are resolved quickly and are more appropriate and answered in more detail in other forums or men's rights which is begrudingly tolerated at best.

Dravokivich

Well, you really need to look at what drives the volume here. 16 of the top 20 threads in this forum (Excluding Stickies) are in one way or another just banter or general chat.

It's all I see whenever I find my way into tGC.

A handful of topical threads, surrounded by banter.

The issue isn't with what type of threads should be removed, or what should be encouraged more.

The question simply is, what is tGC and how is it intended to be directed. It's not a question solely posed to the moderators either. If the userbase is driving this forum towards one which is predominantly banter or general chat. I feel it needs to be recognised as that, opposed to as a forum intended for the discussion of male issues. Because that just makes up a small part of what occurs here.

Rev Hellfire

Right I'm a newbie as far as this forum goes, but that said I'm happy with the way the forum is run and is moving.

Personally I prefer the more 'serious' threads on men issues and rights and the increase in them is a good thing in my view.

That said I can see how the increase in these threads may be driving some people away; though on the flip side it's also bringing in new blood.

Anyway long story short, I'm not sure you need to change anything atm.

Maguined

Dravokivich wrote: »

Well, you really need to look at what drives the volume here. 16 of the top 20 threads in this forum (Excluding Stickies) are in one way or another just banter or general chat.

It's all I see whenever I find my way into tGC.

A handful of topical threads, surrounded by banter.

The issue isn't with what type of threads should be removed, or what should be encouraged more.

The question simply is, what is tGC and how is it intended to be directed. It's not a question solely posed to the moderators either. If the userbase is driving this forum towards one which is predominantly banter or general chat. I feel it needs to be recognised as that, opposed to as a forum intended for the discussion of male issues. Because that just makes up a small part of what occurs here.

It's a small part of what TGC currently is but to me it is the only part the is currently fulfilling the actual charter of TGC.

General chat threads are supposed to exist for the community of the forum not as the reason for the forum. If TGC is going to primarily be driven by what the desires of the chat threads want then I would suggest this is not a public forum about men but really it should be a private social forum like so many others out there.

If TGC wants to be more than a private social banter forum then it needs to focus and work towards that. D'Agger I am going to have to respectfully disagree with your point about tastes. As you say any in detail discussion rightfull gets moved to the fashon forum etc however what does that leave you with? less detailed more generic "let's talk about shaving our balls" type threads which there is nothing wrong with but are these the topics that deserve an entire forum and warrants an entire community around? personally I do not.

I still believe the only topics that currently lives up to the charter are the mens rights threads that the mods and general chat people do not actually want. I do not see a problem with nit picking and back and forth myself, that is part of any debate and I do not validate the issue that people do not find that friendly. You don't go into a topical divisive debate to make friends and be happy, you go there looking to discuss ideas and even if done in a nit picking way it is new ideas and new information I always get out of such threads despite not posting in them that much.

Just because something might require more work and moderation does not make it a bad thing in my view. If people do not want to debate in those threads then they are free not to but to restrict those people that do want to debate for fear of upsetting some to me is flawed logic and a stance I could never understand why it was adopted by the mods throughout TGC's lifespan.

The Black Oil

I'd agree that it may be useful to revisit the charter/general fit of the forum. I felt the reason no one had offered feedback for a few days was perhaps because they were surprised to see another thread. Personally, I didn't think another would crop up for a while as the previous one brought about a new batch of mods, though perhaps that's partly why there's now this thread - to review implementations from the last feedback session. Maybe some sort of mini census could be carried out to find out the age groups that post here and the focus of the forum, balancing the serious with the easy going stuff. Anyway...

Looking back through the forum from 200,8 and some time after that, it seems that the threads were largely about health (back when it was called Men's Health), understandably that changed. There are a couple of core male specific medical type threads that are interesting to read - I've no experience of the conditions/issues, but I think they should stay (obviously within normal boards rules) as they can help to de-mystify some of the perceptions that are out there. One off queries 'this happened me 2 days ago, what should I do?' are obviously a no go, and I would presume people accidentally post them here as they think they'll get a male orientated response. Apart from locking the obvious ones, and having a clear charter, I don't see an issue there. Reported posts are promptly dealt with, iirc.

I generally stay out of the men's rights thread because I know almost nothing about the subject and find it a little head scratching, inaccessible (the topic, not the thread), but that's down to my own lack of research and engagement - something I hope to change. Apart from some government information type websites I wouldn't really know where to go for information on this issue (though it's obviously very broad). I sometimes listen to Woman's Hour on BBC Radio 4, I've no clue about what any sort of male equivalent would be or is. I'm not blind to white male privilege in the media, btw. I agree it can be a difficult issue to discuss because even the perception of raising it can be met with immediate pushback, or attempts silence it. As for one up manship, etc - that's standard in many forums.

There was a thread on spending time with your dad during childhood - that was a good read. The sexism one is interesting, also. I'm trying to think of other topics that might work here that may not have already been covered, but I have to admit I'm not sure what else to suggest. Brainstorm, maybe.

Keano

I'm more of a lurker but I've always struggled with what is TGC exactly? Where does it fit in, is just here because TLL exists so only fair we have a male equivalent?

Pawwed Rig

I think Maguined hit the nail on the head in his first post.

Unfortunately this post might seem a bit negative too.

I really do not know what the forum is for. Having a quick look through the first 2 pages there are topics like 'mens clothes' - allowed 'new shoes' - not allowed, 'vasectomy' - allowed 'man boobs' - not allowed, 'negative equity with ex' - allowed 'divorce' - not allowed. I am more confused about this forum now than I was at the last feedback thread. Every thread in here could fit into another forum but I would think that it might be a better idea to leave them here rather than shipping them out immeadiately. If I am thinking about starting a thread I generally think twice as if I post here it is something I want to discuss here.

Apolologies in advance for the next bit and I hope that this will be taken in a constructive manner.
I do not think that the moderators are representative of the forum as a whole. During the last round of selections I think that mods were chosen for 'steady as she goes' reasons rather than reflecting the demographic of the forum as it exists. If you look at other forums the mods are the heart and soul of them. In TGC I rarely see a mod get involved in a debate.
For example 2 threads I follow
Woman hits a man thread - 1 post by a mod/ out of 194* posts
Sexism you have personally experienced 1 post/444*
*excluding mod actions
These two threads plus the Mens Rights thread comprise a fair %age of the posts on TGC over the last while. This is why I say the mods are not representative. And as I said I hope this will be taken as contructive criticism rather than an attack.

So I guess my recomendations (for what they're worth) would be to appoint a mod from the other side of the divide and encourage a higher footfall in TGC by not closing/moving so many threads. Finally give some clarity on what is allowed and what is not allowed.

Other than that I agree with most of what others have posted already.

The Black Oil

It's hard to see how the mods would take anything written so far as an attack. I don't have a clue how they were chosen apart from being active posters. I didn't realise that they weren't really active in those threads (not that they're obliged to be), and I'm not trying to back them up here, honest. What do you mean by demographic - age/personality/experience/wisdom? The perceived lack of breadth of posters and topics might be down to uncertainty about what the forum is for rather than the make up of mods or what topics are locked. Might be no harm to have a mod with a few more earth miles on the clock, though.

Panthro

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Right I'm a newbie as far as this forum goes, but that said I'm happy with the way the forum is run and is moving.

Personally I prefer the more 'serious' threads on men issues and rights and the increase in them is a good thing in my view.

That said I can see how the increase in these threads may be driving some people away; though on the flip side it's also bringing in new blood.

Anyway long story short, I'm not sure you need to change anything atm.

Seen as you post in the serious threads mainly:
The thing I find with the more serious threads is they tend to start off well as well meaning discussions, but quickly and invariably escalate into a debate thread which revolves around a core group of 4-6 posters who (as said earlier) turn the thread into a game of "one up-man-ship"/ "which gender has it worse off" situation. We try to intervene on thread, we get questioned, we warn a poster, we get questioned on it, we infract a user, we get questioned on it. Literally any intervention we make we get called up on it, insulted, name called.
And that's before we get the uber pedantic "you deleted my post but you won't delete theirs"..."you warn me but you won't warn them, clearly your favouring one side over the other" etc etc.
These threads take up a lot of our time, let's be honest they are difficult to Mod.
We become less like Mods and more like referees/parents to a few difficult/never happy individuals.

Rev Hellfire

I don't disagree with anything you're saying.
That said , just because they're difficult to manage doesn't mean they're not worth having.

But I guess this is part of the issue here, you have two separate groups looking for two different things from the forum. Some are looking for debate on mens issues while others are for a place to socialise and get grooming tips (joke ).

Both are valid reasons to post in this forum under its current charter, the question is can the forum accommodate both needs. Personally I think it can, diversity in the user-base is no bad thing otherwise it runs the risk of becoming an echo chamber.

Panthro

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

I don't disagree with anything you're saying.
That said , just because they're difficult to manage doesn't mean they're not worth having.

True, I've put forward the notion of allowing a limited number of serious threads to cater for those who want to discuss Men's topics.
These threads would have a clear set of rules to abide by.

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

But I guess this is part of the issue here, you have two separate groups looking for two different things from the forum. Some are looking for debate on mens issues while others are for a place to socialise and get grooming tips (joke ).

For my money, you actually have 3 sets of groups:
Those who legitimately want to hold a discussion (not get dragged into a debate) about Men's topics (quite often the same ones who leave a discussion once it becomes apparent it's moved into a one-man up-ship debate)
Those who want to debate the topic (these can be/encourage the introduction of the more "difficult" posters )
Those who post in the more lighthearted threads.

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Both are valid reasons to post in this forum under its current charter, the question is can the forum accommodate both needs. Personally I think it can, diversity in the user-base is no bad thing otherwise it runs the risk of becoming an echo chamber.

Currently, I think we can accommodate 2 out of the 3 listed above, with the middle group being the exception. I think group No.2 is outside of our remit.

corkgsxr

The next page on the main boards page. 1-3 pages. The right left buttons are to small and are unresponsive unless you zoom in alot

Panthro

corkgsxr wrote: »

The next page on the main boards page. 1-3 pages. The right left buttons are to small and are unresponsive unless you zoom in alot

Feedback yes, but not for the forum.
Perhaps feedback for the Site itself?
Feedback Forum

Edit:
D'Agger's link below is probably more accurate

D'Agger

Site Development

entropi

With me being only an occasional poster, even going back to the old Men's Health forum, it has definitely changed the demographic of people who post here. Back then, I can remember a good bit of traffic going through here (albeit I'm sure it was much more work for the mods too) and a wider variety of topics were available to talk about. Not to say that the posters here are not sound either, variety is nice! With the change in the nature of the forum from health to a broader description, confusion has set in.

As has been mentioned already, the types of threads and discussions allowed in here has not been quite what might be expected in here. I'm not saying it should be all purely "manly man" stuff, but allowances for some of the general 'appearance' threads could be allowed and not moved on to other pastures. The same with some of the stuff that might be put in to the OD forum (I'm not in it so unsure of the content) like how to dress and what type of etiquette to use for certain occasions.

A general chat thread is a given in most fora these days, which is always welcome to enhance the look and feel of the place, introduces that social cohesion and allows people to banter about without being in any way too serious or off topic. What I would really like to see is one moderator who is a woman. As an example, it has worked very successfully in The Ladies Lounge, with Zaph and Wibbs taking a role in that forum's moderation before, so why not here? It would be a nice touch and something new and shiny is usually a good thing, personally speaking.

Seeing what I've seen, you guys moderating the place are doing a grand job so far and keep it up. These threads always bring about some good change, some bad. Here's to making TGC a better place!

Panthro

@entropi Cheers for the feedback!:)
Just on the female Mod, Sam34 was our resident female Mod to the forum until a few days ago, we have since been putting a few names back and forth but haven't made any firm decisions as yet.

entropi

Panthro wrote: »

@entropi Cheers for the feedback!:)
Just on the female Mod, Sam34 was our resident female Mod to the forum until a few days ago, we have since been putting a few names back and forth but haven't made any firm decisions as yet.

You're welcome

Just mentioned that part as I never seen her around much (since I wasn't here enough to notice).

The Corinthian

D'Agger wrote: »

Do they have a place in TGC - yes, but it has become a less hospitable forum as a result of them and I think we should look to keep the number of new threads created for similar issues down, and look to have one or two main threads such as the Mens Rights thread.

That way it'll become so restrictive that if someone wants to discuss something that is not strictly on-topic for these two or three threads, the mods can happily nuke any such posts under the pretext of keeping things on topic - which is already the case in the already limited allowed threads in the area.

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

So I guess my recomendations (for what they're worth) would be to appoint a mod from the other side of the divide and encourage a higher footfall in TGC by not closing/moving so many threads. Finally give some clarity on what is allowed and what is not allowed.

I expect the more likely result of this thread is that men's rights discussions will end up limited to two or three heavily moderated threads, so that tGC can still claim to cover the topic and kill off any demand for a separate forum, and with the hope that they can slowly strangle any debate.

Panthro wrote: »

Seen as you post in the serious threads mainly:
The thing I find with the more serious threads is they tend to start off well as well meaning discussions, but quickly and invariably escalate into a debate thread which revolves around a core group of 4-6 posters who (as said earlier) turn the thread into a game of "one up-man-ship"/ "which gender has it worse off" situation.

That's a rather poor analysis of what happens. In reality, what often happens is someone with an opposing view will post something often on the lines of "women have it far worse" or "men don't suffer any real discrimination" and then naturally the posters react. Oddly the former rarely seem to get moderated.

And that's before we get the uber pedantic "you deleted my post but you won't delete theirs"..."you warn me but you won't warn them, clearly your favouring one side over the other" etc etc.

Give me a fscking break, the mods here are forever doing this. Just today we have a warning from a mod to a poster about mentioning a certain other forum here, yet one of the people thanking their posts also did so, but as (s)he's clearly not one of the 'troublemakers' (s)he's not on the radar.

These threads take up a lot of our time, let's be honest they are difficult to Mod.

Then don't. Let men's rights get spinned off to it's own forum or sub forum. Last time there was a feedback thread I pointed out that the moderators don't really like such threads and prefer the more light and fluffy topics and in fairness I understand this - you're not getting paid to moderate - and that maybe it's time you admit this and allow the topic to be moderated by those who actually care about it.

Panthro

The Corinthian wrote: »

Then don't. Let men's rights get spinned off to it's own forum or sub forum. Last time there was a feedback thread I pointed out that the moderators don't really like such threads and prefer the more light and fluffy topics and in fairness I understand this - you're not getting paid to moderate - and that maybe it's time you admit this and allow the topic to be moderated by those who actually care about it.

On the issue of a separate forum for such discussions, you weren't held back from requesting one were you? To my knowledge, we don't have any powers to stop you requesting one.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=80499003&postcount=262

The Corinthian

Panthro wrote: »

On the issue of a separate forum for such discussions, you weren't held back from requesting one were you? To my knowledge, we don't have any powers to stop you requesting one.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=80499003&postcount=262

And if you looked a few posts down from the one you've cited, you'll see I respond with why it won't happen; as long as tGC (pretends to) cover this topic, no separate forum will ever be green-lit by the Admins.

Panthro

The Corinthian wrote: »

And if you looked a few posts down from the one you've cited, you'll see I respond with why it won't happen; as long as tGC (pretends to) cover this topic, no separate forum will ever be green-lit by the Admins.

So that's a no then?
You should perhaps ask for one regardless.
Miracles do happen.

awec

This post has been deleted.

The Corinthian

Panthro wrote: »

So that's a no then?
You should perhaps ask for one regardless.
Miracles do happen.

Actually I did request one three years ago and it was rejected principally on the basis "these topics are covered in The Gentlemans Club much in the same way that the ladies lounge covers it for ladies".

Would you like me to waste my time and ask again, so as to get the same answer?

Look, ideally such topics should be covered in tGC. Some people don't like them and prefer the more metrosexual threads, which is fine but no one's forcing them to click on a thread link. Perhaps moving them to a sub-forum may be one way of placating them.

However this would not solve the problem that's already been raised by others here which is that the entire topic appears to be largely treated as an annoyance by the present moderators at best. Even now, all that's been suggested by moderators is restricting threads even further.

Unless this belligerence is dealt with, the only alternative is to set the topic free, TBH.

awec wrote: »

This is not a place for men to post extreme views and then expect to be protected by moderators. Of course the forum will always be men-leaning, but there is a line.

What extreme views? Certainly you'll get the odd idiot coming out with a "all women are" whatever, but it's now become a case deleting posts for going off topic, which means that other topics cannot be discussed as we are actively discouraged to start them.

Or is any kind of criticism of critique of feminism extreme? There's been perfectly well constructed arguments on this that have been either deleted or engendered warnings.

Meanwhile when the extreme view comes from a feminist angle, repeatedly there's been no moderation takes place, even when reported.

Could we have a definition of extreme from you that would explain all these discrepancies?

Personally, I'm not accusing any of the moderators of ideological biases, only on wanting a quiet life and I completely understand this. But I'm sorry, there really is a need for moderation from someone who actually has some interest in the subject here and I've not been alone in pointing this out.

awec

This post has been deleted.

KyussBishop

Following on from my post in the mens rights thread, that there shouldn't really be a divide between mens/womens rights discussion/movements:
How about a general 'Gender/Sex Equality' forum, to cover all issues ranging from mens/womens/trans/gay and all other orientation/sexual-preference issues, that aren't covered by the LGBT/Male-oriented/Female-oriented forums, or things which otherwise might get stuck to the private Sex and Sexuality forum? (though I don't know if there's much discussion there)

Seems like a good place to lump all such discussion together; would need a crack team of mods though, as putting so many conflicting groups together on the one forum, would ensure pretty fiery debate (but it would also set a pretty high critical standard to be met, for peoples arguments).

I think a lot could be learned from such a forum; I don't know a great deal about mens rights, and only some about womens, and there are a wide area of discriminated groups that I just know nothing about that would fit in such a forum.

It was suggested before (just as a 'Gender Equality' forum though - I think including sex equality issues would be good too), and didn't seem to pick up much steam (was suggested it get put under Humanities, but that doesn't really suit it because the issues are so specific), but that was 5 years ago now, so might get accepted this time around:
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055241377

Maguined

awec wrote: »

There are certainly plenty of instances of bullying in these threads of anyone who dares go against the grain with their opinion. I'm not going to enumerate every instance of what is over the line - but hopefully posters can exercise common sense going forward.

Can I ask what you classify as bullying? To me all I thought that would matter in a thread is if someone broke the rules or not? If someone is posting something in a thread that warrants mod intervention then surely you intervene and the issue is resolved? if something is posted that does not break the rules and so does not require mod internvetion then surely this is acceptable?

Are you saying there is a third option where someone is not technically breaking the rules but you feel the mods should be able to intervene as what they are posting is not acceptable within the current confines of the rules?

As long as the posters are not breaking the rules when posting against someone who is going against the grain I would not view this as bullying myself and more of a consensus forming amongst the forum.

The Corinthian

awec wrote: »

Posts are deleted as off topic in one thread - you have been using this site long enough to know that that doesn't mean another topic can't be started.

Yet what happens when, as a mod here suggested, we should:

D'Agger wrote: »

I think we should look to keep the number of new threads created for similar issues down, and look to have one or two main threads such as the Mens Rights thread.

With only "one or two" such threads, what is the scope for going 'off-topic' and thus limiting discussion? Pretty large, I'd imagine.

awec wrote: »

There are certainly plenty of instances of bullying in these threads of anyone who dares go against the grain with their opinion. I'm not going to enumerate every instance of what is over the line - but hopefully posters can exercise common sense going forward.

And what do you expect if someone jumps into a thread and claims that men suffer no real discrimination?

Put it another way; if someone were to post something on the lines of "black people are more stupid than white people", they're likely to be not only flamed for this by other posters, but also also banned by the mods.

How many posters have you banned for misandrist posts?

I'm glad you're not accusing me of bias, but I don't moderate for an easy life either. This forum isn't easy to moderate because no matter what you do you'll be annoying someone.

I understand that, but even you must have noticed that most moderation posts in these threads are being thanked almost exclusively by the other moderators. Considered that the decisions being made are not exactly supported by the community here?

To suggest we actively target these threads to strangle discussion is rubbish. That is certainly not the case.

Yet when you have moderators here suggesting that "we should look to keep the number of new threads created for similar issues down", that hardly looks like you're encouraging it either. You'll have to admit that you're not exactly promoting a supportive message.

TBH, I've suggested what would help in my last post. My fear is that D'Agger's containment strategy will instead and that will strangle discussion. Feel free to prove me wrong; I won't complain if you do.

The Corinthian

awec wrote: »

Of course constructive, thought out, critique of feminism is not extreme - please stop inventing straw men.

While we're on this, please feel free to explain to me on why my post that critiqued pre and post 1970's feminism was deleted by Panthro? Feel free to read it and let me know if it was 'extreme', 'off topic' or 'lazy stereotyping'.

Panthro

The Corinthian wrote: »

While we're on this, please feel free to explain to me on why my post that critiqued pre and post 1970's feminism was deleted by Panthro? Feel free to read it and let me know if it was 'extreme', 'off topic' or 'lazy stereotyping'.

Why are going on about Feminism in a Men's Rights discussion thread?
Quite a few posts were deleted as the conversation was starting to evolve around the discussion of Feminism, not Men's Rights.

The Corinthian

Panthro wrote: »

Why are going on about Feminism in a Men's Rights discussion thread?

I wonder why? Maybe because someone asked why men's rights movements are needed if feminism is about equality of the genders? Because it's relevant to why men's rights movements exist in the first place?

Quite a few posts were deleted as the conversation was starting to evolve around the discussion of Feminism, not Men's Rights.

And as threads are to be kept to a minimum, so will all threads end up censored.

D'Agger

The Corinthian wrote: »

Yet what happens when, as a mod here suggested, we should:

With only "one or two" such threads, what is the scope for going 'off-topic' and thus limiting discussion? Pretty large, I'd imagine.

Or the scope for what could be discussed in the threads could be quite large, it depends on how you look at a glass with 50% of it's volume in use.

The idea was along the lines of a large scale mens issues thread where you could discuss topics of domestic violence, mens rights issues, divorce etc. - the issue would be for us to decide the scope as per what is on topic and what is off.

Perhaps it's just me but I prefer forums where threads have a wider scope rather than having multiple threads, I find it's more organized to go through the forum rather than wading through somewhat similar threads where the same content is visited every few pages.

In that same vein, I'd prefer to have a general mens grooming thread or suits/clothing thread introduced.

Either way, it's an idea I put up in here to bounce it off other users to see what they thought it could bring to the forum.

Yet when you have moderators here suggesting that "we should look to keep the number of new threads created for similar issues down", that hardly looks like you're encouraging it either. You'll have to admit that you're not exactly promoting a supportive message.

Like I said above, who's to say a more general thread wouldn't promote better scope of conversation and that is someting I would support - the issue again, is judging what is OT and what is - in comparison to the rules set out on the thread - the thread would have to be well setup so as to allow good discussions imo

TBH, I've suggested what would help in my last post. My fear is that D'Agger's containment strategy will instead and that will strangle discussion. Feel free to prove me wrong; I won't complain if you do.

You'd swear I'm going to try to commit some sort of thread genocide :pac:

Seriously - what are your thoughts on the original point I feel I just expanded a little on there, would you still be against it or do you think it could work if approched a different way etc?

Panthro

The Corinthian wrote: »

I wonder why? Maybe because someone asked why men's rights movements are needed if feminism is about equality of the genders? Because it's relevant to why men's rights movements exist in the first place?

And as threads are to be kept to a minimum, so will all threads end up censored.

If you have a problem with the Moderation, please feel free to air your grievances with a C-Mod.
Seem as this is a Feedback thread about the Forum in general, I'll ask you politely refrain from calling up such Mod decisions in here.
Thank you.

The Corinthian

D'Agger wrote: »

Or the scope for what could be discussed in the threads could be quite large, it depends on how you look at a glass with 50% of it's volume in use.

Seemingly Pantro has other ideas on this, which is why I have raised this latest example here, so you'll have to admit that it does not bode well for what you claim.

Seriously - what are your thoughts on the original point I feel I just expanded a little on there, would you still be against it or do you think it could work if approched a different way etc?

It wouldn't work, for exactly the reasons I've already raised. Moderation of men's rights threads is getting more and more arbitrary, from what I can see. Limiting the number of threads essentially ghettoises the topic, into long meandering discussions that would put anyone off joining and on top of that it's already clear that any excuse, such as something being 'off topic' will be used to censor them.

Maguined

Panthro wrote: »

Why are going on about Feminism in a Men's Rights discussion thread?

Actually this is something I noticed before but forgot to mention in previous posts.

I have seen posts criticising feminism in the Men's Rights thread being deleted and found it odd as I would of thought they were on topic and relevant to the discussion of men's rights most of the time.

I just don't understand how you can talk about mens rights without comparing them to womens rights and women rights are influenced by feminism but you are not allowed criticise feminism?

So my feedback would be to allow the discussion and criticism of feminism as it's generally on topic when discussing men's rights.

Pawwed Rig

D'Agger wrote: »

Perhaps it's just me but I prefer forums where threads have a wider scope rather than having multiple threads, I find it's more organized to go through the forum rather than wading through somewhat similar threads where the same content is visited every few pages.

I would say the opposite in that I would prefer separate threads. With the catch all threads people jump on and off and the thread ends up going around in circles with the same items being covered again and again as few people will sit and read 500 posts prior to making their first post.
I can see how they would be easier to moderate though.
Also I do not see the harm in a small off topic side conversation. Were it to take over the thread then I can see it being an issue but 10 or 12 posts I think is perfectly acceptable.

Panthro wrote: »

Why are going on about Feminism in a Men's Rights discussion thread?

I am a little confused by this statement. I do not see how you can discuss one without the other. It would be the equivalent of a feminism thread with patriarchal privilege being a taboo topic?

I would encourage the mods to keep an open mind on these threads. Some of the ground covered definitely makes interesting reading and is an eye opener to look at issues from another persons perspective. Whether you agree or not is not the relevant point.
In the event that the mods remain uninterested in these issues I would again urge the appointment of someone who would be an active participant ensuring that the mod team remains representative of the forum as a whole.

Panthro

Maguined wrote: »

So my feedback would be to allow the discussion and criticism of feminism as it's generally on topic when discussing men's rights.

Taken on board, thank you.

KyussBishop

My post in the mens rights thread was deleted as being off topic, but it was about mens rights, and wondering why it is not incorporated into other movements as well - that wasn't off topic?

EDIT:

Panthro wrote: »

Why are going on about Feminism in a Men's Rights discussion thread?
Quite a few posts were deleted as the conversation was starting to evolve around the discussion of Feminism, not Men's Rights.

My post was about mens rights, in relation to feminism - since both movements are (at their heart) about gender equality, they are mutually intertwined (promoting equality for men, also means removing societal advantages men have over women, thus also relates to feminism), and I was posting wondering why they are not (in practice) intertwined.

The ambiguity here, is a good example of why a forum dedicated to sex/gender issues, would be a good idea.

D'Agger

The Corinthian wrote: »

Seemingly Pantro has other ideas on this, which is why I have raised this latest example here, so you'll have to admit that it does not bode well for what you claim.

You're discussing a currently existing thread, like Mags has just said, why not give the feedback that arguing feminism should be allowed to be discussed?

Limiting the number of threads essentially ghettoises the topic, into long meandering discussions that would put anyone off joining and on top of that

I disagree, I think if you look at the Soccer forum as an example, where there is a general discussion thread for a particular team that encompasses a vast amount of discussion on various subjects, the rules are clear from the offset and that makes it easier to post in and, I would imagine, moderate.

Again, to go back to Mags post - why not have a thread that can encompass the Mens Rights movement, Feminism, Legal issues i.e. divorce, child support etc?

it's already clear that any excuse, such as something being 'off topic' will be used to censor them.

We're not big brother and this isn't 1984, the mens rights thread is restrictive and we're keeping it that way until such time that we can potentially setup a new thread with a different set of rules to reflect what members of the forum want to discuss - my idea was to give it a more expansive/general scope

What changes would you look to bring to the mens rights discussion to improve it? Mags has mentioned allowing the discussion of feminism, anything else?

Femme_Fatale

It would be a bit of a travesty if there were no men's issues threads in The Gentlemen's Club, and if discussion/criticism of modern feminism could not be included full stop. There is nothing wrong with all threads being from men's point of view either - it is a men's forum.

The only problem with men's issues discussions is if they become "men versus women", if women-bashing enters the equation, if women get blamed for injustices men face (even those for which men are responsible - other men can be an obstacle towards men's rights, not just women; particularly when it comes to sexual assault of men by women), the "Us v them" stuff that's so hostile to female readers like "Women get all the perks" kinda sentiment, "If that were a woman, xyz would happen", hyperbole along the lines of "Nobody cares about men" and the pretence that men are really downtrodden overall. (It is the case, absolutely, that men experience injustices because of being men, and that women have the upper hand in some scenarios, but that does not make men overall a disenfranchised, oppressed group. Ditto women - in the West).

And that is how the men's issues threads can get, unfortunately. It's only a coterie of the same people over and over, who deny they are hostile towards women, but every so often their mask slips - whether it's what they say or what they thank.
On the "Sexism you have experienced" thread, the lack of leeway for questioning the more dubious/blatantly hostile comments gives people "protection" to post horrible stuff (I would say the very same about a female discussion on sexism).

Some of the latest posts to the current men's issues threads are just staggering in their nastiness towards women. It's dismaying to read, some of it is downright hurtful tbh. I wouldn't dream of venturing into the hardcore misogynistic discussion forums on the net, but I like Boards - it's a great website and it's depressing to see a similar element on what could be really interesting discussions on a forum that concerns issues which are of huge interest to me personally. I want more awareness of fathers' lack of rights, of domestic abuse of men, of men's health concerns, of the way ads and TV/film are open season on ridiculing men; slapping of men by women being no big deal, sexual assault of men by women being no big deal, etc.
But I find I simply cannot get involved in such discussions here, because I'm a woman and there are too many nasty, unnecessary, unhelpful comments directed at my gender in here, and it's too difficult to take part in such discussion because of the venom that has to be waded through.
It's like these threads are grabbed as an opportunity to vent (including digs towards women) rather than any constructive discussion (not saying that can't include venting, just that hostile venting alone over and over seems pointless).

With regards to "bullying" mentioned earlier which Maguined queried: It is most certainly the case that people who question the inflammatory, provocative, hostile, dubious posts are ganged up on. "Browbeaten" is the word someone used, and it's spot-on IMO.
Well this was the case until recently - I think the mods seem to be taking that on board now, and fair play to them.

As for feminism, I hate extreme feminism - I hate the stuff about "the patriarchy" and the inconsistency in terms of what hardline feminists deem worth getting worked-up over.
But it's just the reality that there are moderate feminists. Even if people will argue that they shouldn't attach themselves to a movement with such an extreme element, that doesn't change that they exist. They are just the female equivalent of moderate men's rights advocates, who get bothered by actual crap women experience because of their gender (not stuff like sexy billboards) and any such women I know, absolutely love men. Any of the women I know who nag and belittle men and go on about them being bastards and other such crap... are the same women who have no time for anything feminist.
Things are not always as they seem.

Rev Hellfire

D'Agger wrote: »

to go back to Mags post - why not have a thread that can encompass the Mens Rights movement, Feminism, Legal issues i.e. divorce, child support etc?

Because all you are really doing is attempting to ghettoise the confrontational content. I don't see why for example legal issues and child support belong exclusively in a thread about the men's right movement, they are each important matters and deserve there own individual threads.

Additionally I personally hate those sort of mega threads, it's hard to hold a discussion when there's such a broad scope assigned to it.

If you must at least have a thread for each of the distinct topics.

D'Agger wrote: »

What changes would you look to bring to the mens rights discussion to improve it? Mags has mentioned allowing the discussion of feminism, anything else?

My suggestion is that there is once the subject matter has a relationship to the issue of male rights that it is allowed. I don't believe you should be deleting posts unless they are abusive. Otherwise you're not facilitating discussion but rather directing it.

D'Agger wrote: »

We're not big brother and this isn't 1984, the mens rights thread is restrictive and we're keeping it that way until such time that we can potentially setup a new thread with a different set of rules to reflect what members of the forum want to discuss

Here's the rub, who decides what the members want to discuss, the active members or the moderators.

Maguined

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

With regards to "bullying" mentioned earlier which Maguined queried: It is most certainly the case that people who question the inflammatory, provocative, hostile, dubious posts are ganged up on. "Browbeaten" is the word someone used, and it's spot-on IMO.
Well this was the case until recently - I think the mods seem to be taking that on board now, and fair play to them.

Can I ask you what specifically do you think the browbeaters are doing wrong? Surely if they are being abusive in what they say then acting abusive is moderated on every forum? I don't mean to pick on you or anything but others have mentioned the same thing without really explaining what they mean?

So far all I can gather is that some posters are not breaking the rules but people don't like what they post so it gets called browbeating or bullying when all I can see is that they are not violating the rules so shouldnt be punished?

As for your feminism point what is your ultimate conclusion though? If given the choice between feminism not being allowed to be discussed or criticised in any mens rights threads or allowing such discussion even if it involves harsh criticism of feminism which would you choose?

D'Agger

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Because all you are really doing is attempting to ghettoise the confrontational content. I don't see why for example legal issues and child support belong exclusively in a thread about the men's right movement, they are each important matters and deserve there own individual threads.

Additionally I personally hate those sort of mega threads, it's hard to hold a discussion when there's such a broad scope assigned to it.

If you must at least have a thread for each of the distinct topics.

That's a fair point - the issue then becomes what can be covered on those specific threads, the scope for what is on or off topic becomes tighter but like you said if it's a related topic then it should be allowed, the question then is what's to stop people pushing that to include the most tenuous of links to drag a thread into a different region the excuse of 'well it's related to mens rights so it should be allowed' - it's us who has to make that decision and often you're not going to please everybody.

On the mens rights thread, from a personal viewpoint - it seems like we're being shouted at by both sides of an argument via reporting of posts and it's tedious to say the least, we're in a position where you need to decide what should be allowed and not allowed - that's why we're here, we want to find out what needs to be addressed in an open forum to allow threads like the mens rights thread to be discussed and see how we can improve the overall standard of both individual threads and the forum as a whole.

My suggestion is that there is once the subject matter has a relationship to the issue of male rights that it is allowed. I don't believe you should be deleting posts unless they are abusive. Otherwise you're not facilitating discussion but rather directing it.

Directing it to what we percieve to be on topic it should be noted - we all know that the Mens rights thread is restricted, due to our implementation of what we feel to be on or off topic for the current thread - again, I know I'm repeating myself but we're here to find out how to facilitate the discussion better.

Here's the rub, who decides what the members want to discuss, the active members or the moderators.

If somebody wants to setup a thread then we look to hold that up against the charter which we know is outdated and requires work, however, when it comes to a thread like the mens rights thread, which is something that encompasses something quite broad, we need to implement thread rules and look to implement them - at the moment the Mens rights thread needs reviewing.

I'm saying it's not 1984 because we wouldn't be having a feedback thread if we didn't want active member input into what can be improved which, thankfully we're getting, we're not the thought police, we simply try to have threads conversation flow without straying off the original topic.

The Corinthian

D'Agger wrote: »

You're discussing a currently existing thread, like Mags has just said, why not give the feedback that arguing feminism should be allowed to be discussed?

I do and it's been ignored without exception - indeed that I've done so by reporting the moderator post announcing the deletions has resulted in a rather snotty reply that the report function should not be used this way. Maybe PM's are easier to ignore?

Another recent example was the ruling on the acceptability of violence against men thread that bringing up how male rape is dealt with was off topic. Off topic? How silly of us not to realize that rape has nothing to do with violence. Completely insane.

I disagree, I think if you look at the Soccer forum as an example, where there is a general discussion thread for a particular team that encompasses a vast amount of discussion on various subjects, the rules are clear from the offset and that makes it easier to post in and, I would imagine, moderate.

Yet that is not what is happening here. Worse than that these supposed megathreads are not allowing "discussion on various subjects" as has been evidenced by the increased use of playing the off-topic card by the moderators. You've gotten several examples of this, at this stage.

Again, to go back to Mags post - why not have a thread that can encompass the Mens Rights movement, Feminism, Legal issues i.e. divorce, child support etc?

Because, as I've repeatedly said:

• Such threads become endless meandering monsters where finding any sub-topic becomes impossible and discourage participation, and
• because there are at this stage far too many examples of over-moderation that arbitrarily censor as off-topic or otherwise any deviation from some magical definition of said thread topic, as defined by moderators who clearly have little interest in it.

It wouldn't work and would simply serve to 'contain' the topic, which is all well and good if you'd prefer that tGC didn't have too many of them, as clearly the moderators feel, but then it would fail the claimed scope of the forum.

We're not big brother and this isn't 1984, the mens rights thread is restrictive and we're keeping it that way until such time that we can potentially setup a new thread with a different set of rules to reflect what members of the forum want to discuss - my idea was to give it a more expansive/general scope

You tried that already; the men's rights megathread came out of the last feedback thread here - and clearly it's not working. All you're suggesting is extending that strategy.

What changes would you look to bring to the mens rights discussion to improve it? Mags has mentioned allowing the discussion of feminism, anything else?

How about a sub-forum, with moderators who actually have an interest in the subject? Gets it out of immediate sight (which appears to be an issue for some) and would likely decrease the number of ham-fisted moderation decisions we've been seeing.

I'd vote for Wibbs, but I doubt he'd take it up given his recent resignation from tLL.

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

The only problem with men's issues discussions is if they become "men versus women", if women-bashing enters the equation, if women get blamed for injustices men face (even those for which men are responsible

I agree, however...

For example, you cite that men are responsible for some of these injustices. Logically then, if 'men' ourselves should be open to criticism, 'women' should also - yet to ban any potential "men versus women" comparisons could well result in any mention being censored by this policy.

On the other side, just as you get in some pro-feminist threads elsewhere, you also get some dreadful generalizations too, and they certainly should not be encouraged (in fairness they generally get shot down by other posters though).

The question is how do you differentiate between fair comment and nonsense, and unfortunately we appear to have a poor record on how this has been applied to date.