Skipping LCU divisions?

Airbender

The LCU League fixtures and tables for 2013 - 2014 have recently been posted on http://www.leinsterchess.com; without dates, though. Has anybody noticed that Blanchardstown, the winners of the Bodley Cup (Division 6), have been promoted straight into the O'Hanlon Cup, i.e. into Division 4? It looks like Dublin, who came 4th in the BEA (Division 5) and so qualified for the O'Hanlon, decided to stay in the BEA. The vacant slot in the O'Hanlon has been given not to Rathmines who came 5th in the BEA but to a team from the lower league, instead. No explanation has been given on the LCU website. I wonder what our friends from Rathmines think about it?

Sparks

Can you read those fixtures? I keep getting an error page when I try to access them.

L1m1tless

It was stated at the start of the season that 1 team from Div 6 would get promoted to division 4.

cdeb

@Sparks - all you can see at the moment is the league tables, and you can then see each club's fixtures by clicking on the club name. The fixtures per se are showing an error, as are the Bodley tables (will be that way for a while until entries are confirmed) and the summary league tables page.

But yeah, what CowboyDreams says is correct; this was announced mid-way through last season. Round Tower turned down promotion to the O'Hanlon as they wanted to work their way up through all the leagues. So there were three teams promoted from the BA to the O'Hanlon and one from the Bodley to the O'Hanlon.

Airbender

In my view, each team should work their way up through the leagues. Round Tower did the right thing when they refused to skip the division, and I have enormous admiration for them. The Blanchardstown kids coached by John Delaney are good players and will do well in the O'Hanlon, there's no doubt about it. However the Rathimines youngsters who were denied a place in Division 4 are equally good. I still think it was a bit less than fair on them.

cdeb

I don't agree about teams skipping divisions, but no team can really complain about what happened being unfair as it was signposted long ago that it was going to happen.

I don't think it's fair to imply criticism of Blanchardstown for what they did (you say you admire Round Tower for not skipping the BA, but markedly don't make the same comment about Blanchardstown). We'd probably have done the same.

Anyway, Rathmines didn't miss out; next in line for promotion were/are Dublin, who came fourth in the BA.

Airbender

Rathmines did miss out. Dublin refused promotion and entered their team in the BEA, instead. Next in line was Rathmines (the 5th place in the BEA). What the LCU announced on their website was a play-off between the teams that came 3rd and 4th in the BEA and the two best teams from the Bodley. The play-off never took place. Blandchardstown beat Round Tower to win the Bodley Cup. Did it merit skipping the BEA? I somehow don't think so. Anyway, the LCU could operate in a more transparent manner.

Another thing: what if the next year's Bodley Cup winner expresses their wish to skip the BEA, the way it was done this season? The LCU have created a dangerous precedent here.

cdeb

Fair enough so; wasn't aware of that. Or that the play-off didn't take place.

But still, you can't really complain about not being promoted from fifth. To be honest, at that stage, the 11th-placed team in the O'Hanlon would have more claim to be annoyed.

Airbender

What we really need are properly formulated promotion rules. I wonder how many years we'll have to wait for that.

cdeb

I actually proposed that at the LCU AGM, but it was defeated.

The basis was that it's two up two down at all times, and if there's a gap in, say, the O'Hanlon (due to withdrawals), then you fill it with - in order, moving down the list only if earlier clubs turn down promotion - third in the BA the previous season, 11th in the O'Hanlon, 4th in the BA, 12th in the O'Hanlon, and then 5th to 10th in the BA. No double promotions permitted.

Airbender

I know you (St. Benildus) proposed it at the LCU AGM. Such a shame it was defeated! Our club actually voted for it, to no purpose. We'll propose it again next year, won't we? Hopefully, better luck next time.

cdeb

Back on the original post, the fixture dates will be out in the next week, with the Armstrong starting the week of the 23rd, the Heidenfeld the week of the 30th, and so on.

I presume the fixtures are done in two steps while the LCU are getting used to the new fixture software.

checknraise

The only reason Round Tower didnt skip a division is because they wanted to win another trophy - A bit pointless if you ask me.

I would expect Blanchardstown to get promoted again easily enough this year and dont see the problem with them skipping a division. Were people not complaining that Roundtower were too strong for the Bodley last year anyway?

Rathmines have probably the most talented bunch of juniors around and I would be expecting most of them to be playing up a division either in the Heidenfeld or Ennis.

Predictions for the season:

Armstrong: Gonzaga
Heidenfeld: Rathmines
Ennis: Longford
O'Hanlon: Blanchardstown
BEA: Round Tower

Airbender

Airbender wrote: »

Another thing: what if the next year's Bodley Cup winner expresses their wish to skip the BEA, the way it was done this season? The LCU have created a dangerous precedent here.

I believe the question is still valid.

Irish Warrior

checknraise wrote: »

I would expect Blanchardstown to get promoted again easily enough this year and dont see the problem with them skipping a division. Were people not complaining that Roundtower were too strong for the Bodley last year anyway?

Rathmines have probably the most talented bunch of juniors around and I would be expecting most of them to be playing up a division either in the Heidenfeld or Ennis.

Predictions for the season:

Armstrong: Gonzaga
Heidenfeld: Rathmines
Ennis: Longford
O'Hanlon: Blanchardstown
BEA: Round Tower

I don't think Blanchardstown will get promoted this season. TBH even with John Delaney on board 1 I think they will have a fight to avoid relegation.

They won their Bodley group by 6½ points (impressive as that was for a mostly new team), but Round Tower won their Bodley group by 18½ points (an experienced team).

There's a big difference between the Bodley and the O'Hanlon. Even with a 2200+ board one, the rest of the team will face much tougher opposition than they did in the Bodley.

While most players in the O'Hanlon are around 1200-1400, they are experienced players and I'm not sure kids playing in their second season will come out on top.

I wish them the best and it will be interesting to see how they do, but they will notice a difference from the Bodley for sure.

Ciaran

Airbender wrote: »

I believe the question is still valid.

With the two extra spaces because of two Ennis teams pulling out, I'd say last year was an exceptional circumstance so I don't think the Bodley winners in a normal year could look to take the place of the BEA runners up. It would be nice to have had a set of procedures put in place at the AGM though.


Did Blanchardstown really beat Round Tower for the Bodley title? That's an amazing result!

cdeb

Airbender wrote: »

I believe the question is still valid.

I think it might be badly phrased though. If the Bodley winners express an interest in skipping a division, they'll be told they can't. Last year was a special circumstance, and it wasn't the Bodley team that asked to skip a division anyway - the leagues controller decided to allow it to fill gaps.

I don't agree with the idea, but there's no precedent set for Bodley teams to ask to be promoted two divisions (well, and have it accepted)

On the leagues, it's hard to look beyond Gonzaga for the Armstrong alright, though God knows we seem to have been saying that the past few years! Killian Delaney's a big signing; that should tip things in their favour. Hard to look beyond Curragh for the drop, but Celbridge should stay up; always makes things interesting when one of the promoted teams stays up! Will be interesting to see how Dublin have reacted to last year's shock.

Rathmines have lost a couple of players from last season, but they should still be way too strong for the Heidenfeld. I'm thinking Dún Laoghaire-style comfort there. Celbridge-style annihilation isn't out of the question; just depends who stays and who goes. Don't think they'll do a 1-2, but they might; there's no real stand-out promotion sides. Probably Phibsboro or Elm Mount will have a yo-yo season or two. Inchicore could be an outside bet; they've merged with Tallaght and have gotten a couple of strong players.

Benildus should be down at the bottom unfortunately, though we've strengthened our squad. Bray's Ennis don't look like they have enough to stay up in the Heidenfeld. Kilkenny could be down there again, though they've a couple of good juniors and it's hard to tell how strong their team will be. Lucan maybe if their seven and eight are weak. Looks like it's between those four though.

In the Ennis, Rathmines have two fewer boards to put out, which always helps those relegated from the Heidenfeld, but then they've lost a couple of players, which will negate that. And then they've got some very good juniors coming through. I think they'll be up there. Don't know anything about the others though.

Agree that the O'Hanlon is probably beyond Blanch, but you never know. John Delaney should score close to 100%; that's a big start. They've a couple of other players around 1200-1300 strength; I don't know if they'll have a board 5 or 6 though. I think Inchicore will win, again with the Tallaght influx helping. Benildus could be dark horses here; we finished really strongly last season (17 points from the last four games, all wins).

Round Tower should walk the BA; there was talk of them signing a 2000+ player for this season! But we (and Blanchardstown?) showed last season that they're not entirely unbeatable; we should have won the away game for example.

Skerries should go up with them; I think John Loughran is playing there this year. I just hope they've a quieter venue for games this year! Again, Inchicore will probably be up there too. Gorey too, maybe. And Trinity. And Rathmines. Actually, that's a bloody competitive league this year.

The Bodley is impossible to call obviously as the teams aren't out yet. I think Wicklow are entering after their oopsie last year; they should be too strong for everyone. I'd hope for us to be up there, and Rathmines as well probably. But one new team there could throw all that up in the air.

Ciaran

cdeb wrote: »

Killian Delaney's a big signing; that should tip things in their favour.

cdeb

Hey, makes me sound more like a proper sportsman.

Airbender

Ciaran wrote: »

Did Blanchardstown really beat Round Tower for the Bodley title? That's an amazing result!

They did, by one point. No one expected that.

cdeb

That game hasn't been rated yet either then?

Edit - here's the result on the Blanch website (not that I doubted you!). They also beat Dublin 4-1 in the Bodley/BA play-off thingy; another decent result. They'll be up there in the O'Hanlon, but I still reckon the title will be a bit beyond them.

Airbender

Interesting. So the match between Dublin and Blanchardstown did take place? No result for this one on the Blanchardstown site but I trust your information. 4-1 against Dublin is a fabulous result!

cdeb

No, I got that result from the Blanchardstown site; at the link posted. (Actually, you've to scroll forward a page to the newer items for the result)

Airbender

Thanks. It is there, indeed: https://sites.google.com/site/blanchardstownjuniorchessclub/team-announcements/blanchardstownwinspromotiontodivision4

These kids must be very good if they hammered Dublin. Let's see what they can do in the O'Hanlon.

EuropeanSon

Hi guys, this thread popped up on the front page earlier and I had a read, and was curious about the strength of the BEA teams this year? They seem to be pretty strong versus last year, so much so that nobody mentioned Trinity (my team) even as contenders. Are there a bunch of new clubs around, or is there another reason for this?

We have a decent enough team (a few good players over 1300, plus possible new players and a few just below that), the main issue that weakened us was how often we had to forfeit boards last year.

cdeb

I think you'll find Trinity did get one mention.

The three teams promoted from the Bodley are particularly strong, so that's affecting the quality of the BA.

It's always a boost for teams coming down from the O'Hanlon to have to put out one board fewer, especially given your record with walkovers last year.

Drogheda are entering the Bodley this year, their site says. Inchicore are looking at having three teams (up two on last season), as are we (Benildus, up one on last season). There's four new teams already. Blanchardstown and Rathmines will likely have new teams too. It could be a mammoth Bodley this year. The split between the 90-minute league and the 60-minute league will alleviate that to an extent, but we could be looking at a permanent reintroduction of the O'Sullivan (Division 7) very soon. A long way from the 7-team Bodley of just four seasons ago.

Airbender

I think Trinity will do well in the BEA.

I believe this is what we'll have in the Bodley: St. Benildus (2 teams), Inchicore (2), Naomh Barrog (2), Blanchardstown, Drogheda, Malahide, Wicklow, Dun Laoghaire, Curragh, Rathmines, Elm Mount, Bray, Portmarnock. All in all, 16 teams (Shankill will not enter a team this year, so far as I know). So it won't be a mammoth Bodley but something similar to what we had last year. Probably, the same format (divisions A and .

EuropeanSon

cdeb wrote: »

I think you'll find Trinity did get one mention.

The three teams promoted from the Bodley are particularly strong, so that's affecting the quality of the BA.

It's always a boost for teams coming down from the O'Hanlon to have to put out one board fewer, especially given your record with walkovers last year.

Drogheda are entering the Bodley this year, their site says. Inchicore are looking at having three teams (up two on last season), as are we (Benildus, up one on last season). There's four new teams already. Blanchardstown and Rathmines will likely have new teams too. It could be a mammoth Bodley this year. The split between the 90-minute league and the 60-minute league will alleviate that to an extent, but we could be looking at a permanent reintroduction of the O'Sullivan (Division 7) very soon. A long way from the 7-team Bodley of just four seasons ago.

I did notice that, but read it (perhaps incorrectly) as more of an afterthought than a real consideration.

Are these teams (Blanchardstown, Round Tower, Skerries, Gorey) relatively new clubs, or have they just picked up lots of good players?

Ciaran

Round Tower, Skerries and Gorey all entered the leagues for the first time last year. I'm not sure about Blanchardstown.

Airbender

Blanchardstown is not a new club, they had two teams in the Bodley last year. The one that got promoted had John Delaney (the former champion of Ireland) + the kids that he coached (two of them rated about 1200, two others about 1000).

cdeb

Blanchardstown are new in the leagues as the other three. In many cases, players have moved from other clubs (Elm Mount, Rathmines) to play for a club nearer where they live, I think.

Round Tower will in the league. Skerries with a 1700, 1600, 1500, 1500 and 1400 should be able to come second. I think Trinity will struggle to keep up with those two. But they'll be dangerous.