I thought we were broke!

fliball123

chopper6 wrote: »

Where do you get the figure of "nearly half a million on the dole"?


Surely the dole is costing more than PS wages and at no actual benefit to the exchequer.

I said there are about 1/2 million either on the dole or being subisidised to work (jobsbridge) or going back to education (free college places, fas, etc)

fliball123

Godge wrote: »

We don't anymore, following two paycuts and the pension levy.

Those at the top of the public service are now underpaid vis-a-vis both the private sector and many other countries.

Have you any figures on that godge or is this just your opinion..Even if it is true (which I doubt) we are now one of the highest payers of tax when both direct and indirect taxes come into play..Does that mean I want see anymore coming out of my wage?

Godge

fliball123 wrote: »

.................

nearly half a million on the dole ...........



............., 1/2 million people on social welfare .

Which is it?

1/2 million on the doel or 1/2 million on social welfare???????


I don't mind intelligent rants backed up with relevant facts but at least make them consistent within themselves.

SCOOP 64

Godge wrote: »

Which is it?

1/2 million on the doel or 1/2 million on social welfare???????


I don't mind intelligent rants backed up with relevant facts but at least make them consistent within themselves.

400.000 or 450.000 on the dole what difference does it make.
still too bloody many!

Valetta

fliball123 wrote: »

There isnt anywhere near 100 billion in deposits by Irish citizens so we are still in bankrupcy territory. Also if you taking into account savings and deposits..A little reminder of how much personal debt we have. Personal debt would easily wipe out any amount we have in savings and deposits..Thats if you want to look at it in those terms.. Good try but Ireland inc should be declared bankrupt either way

According to the table here http://www.centralbank.ie/polstats/stats/cmab/Documents/ie_table_a.1_summary_irish_private_sector_credit_and_deposits.xls

private deposits amount to €180 Billion.

Total private sector debt is €108 Billion, but most of this is backed by property (83 Billion).

Also, a lot of the debt is double counted.

If I loan you €1,000 then you have a deposit of €1,000 but also a debt of €1,000, giving the impression that between us we have nothing, whereas we actually have €1,000.

We as a country are not broke.

OMD

barneystinson wrote: »

So they've been paid in accordance with their contracts of employment..? Shock horror. Just like plenty of employees in large private sector companies.

However you look at it their pay has gone up. I am not debating the entitlement of it just stating substantial numbers have had pay rises and many are earning more now than they were 6 years ago
Private sector workers getting pay rises is irrelevant.

ardmacha

However you look at it their pay has gone up. I am not debating the entitlement of it just stating substantial numbers have had pay rises and many are earning more now than they were 6 years ago

There is nothing remarkable about people progressing in their careers against a background of pay not rising.
You can state it, but it is drawing attention to nothing of use.

shedweller

Geuze wrote: »

In statistics, e.g. CSO or Eurostat, wages are always quoted gross.

So upon being paid this wage thats crippling the economy, a large percentage comes back as taxes immediately. Theres tax on goods too so that comes back over the month or week, depending on how that person is paid.
So the government pay out wages (to too many, i might add) and get a very large percentage of it back almost straight away.
Perhaps it might be better to mention the actual cost to us, after tax.

OMD

ardmacha wrote: »

There is nothing remarkable about people progressing in their careers against a background of pay not rising.
You can state it, but it is drawing attention to nothing of use.

But this is the reason why, despite so many people going on about numerous cuts to public sector, the average public sector worker's pay has only fallen 2.4% since 2009.

Can you imagine another company, facing bankruptcy, publicly stating it intends reducing salaries and after 4 years of "severe cuts" average pay has only reduced by 2.4%. That's not normal career progression. That's taking the piss.

The semi state bodies are not the reason for this by the way. Someone earlier was making that point.

zl1whqvjs75cdy

SCOOP 64 wrote: »

400.000 or 450.000 on the dole what difference does it make.
still too bloody many!

300,700 is the figure I read today.

fliball123

Valetta wrote: »

According to the table here http://www.centralbank.ie/polstats/stats/cmab/Documents/ie_table_a.1_summary_irish_private_sector_credit_and_deposits.xls

private deposits amount to €180 Billion.

Total private sector debt is €108 Billion, but most of this is backed by property (83 Billion).

Also, a lot of the debt is double counted.

If I loan you €1,000 then you have a deposit of €1,000 but also a debt of €1,000, giving the impression that between us we have nothing, whereas we actually have €1,000.

We as a country are not broke.

ok so if I take these figures that you have given what do you think would happen if the government tried to introduce say a wealth tax on deposits..Answer on the back of a postcard and send it to 2008 when there was a flight of money from the irish banks. So we are still bankrupt if we tried to take this cash it would be gone in the morning, the banks would collapse or we would need more reacapitalisation and the mire that we are in gets even worse. Not to mention that we are still borrowing 1 billion an month and the current debt and future debt will have to paid back with interest

The only instruments that can be used here is what the gov take in through tax (direct and indirect) what the owe out and how much they are borrowing as these are the only tools the government can access. Under this criteria we are in bankruptcy territory

OMD

shedweller wrote: »

Perhaps it might be better to mention the actual cost to us, after tax.

Sure. How do you calculate that. Obviously you have to take into account the benefits the workers get from paying this tax. Police, hospitals, other public sector workers etc. very difficult calculation to do. In some low case workers the cost to the state might be a lot more than their actual wages

Valetta

fliball123 wrote: »

ok so if I take these figures that you have given what do you think would happen if the government tried to introduce say a wealth tax on deposits..Answer on the back of a postcard and send it to 2008 when there was a flight of money from the irish banks. So we are still bankrupt if we tried to take this cash it would be gone in the morning, the banks would collapse or we would need more reacapitalisation and the mire that we are in gets even worse. Not to mention that we are still borrowing 1 billion an month and the current debt and future debt will have to paid back with interest

The only instruments that can be used here is what the gov take in through tax (direct and indirect) what the owe out and how much they are borrowing as these are the only tools the government can access. Under this criteria we are in bankruptcy territory

I think you don't understand the meaning of bankrupt.

In general it means you cannot meet your obligations as they fall due.

Ireland can.

The scenario you outline where everyone looks to withdraw their deposits is the same the world over.

It's the nature of the banking system, but doesn't mean we're bankrupt.

ardmacha

But this is the reason why, despite so many people going on about numerous cuts to public sector, the average public sector worker's pay has only fallen 2.4% since 2009.

This is only true if you ignore the pension levy, and if you do then any calculation is basically a falsehood.

A further widespread oft repeated falsehood is that private sector wages have fallen significantly, which in aggregate they have not.

fliball123

Valetta wrote: »

I think you don't understand the meaning of bankrupt.

In general it means you cannot meet your obligations as they fall due.

Ireland can.

The scenario you outline where everyone looks to withdraw their deposits is the same the world over.

It's the nature of the banking system, but doesn't mean we're bankrupt.

But you are trying to say that as an entity Ireland Inc has access to these deposits and assets when in effect they have not and if they tried to take them there would be a flight of both out of this country.

So back to my point the only measurements we can use is what we take in via taxes and what the government pay out for services, pensions, social welfare, repayments on debt and public sector wage.

At the moment there is an imbalance of 1 billion a month. There has been a build up of over 100 billion of this imbalance over the last 6 years or so and as a tax payer that is what is put in front of me and my kids and grandkids to pay back. I don't dispute that we are not backrupt ( I did say bankrupcy territory) but this is only because we got bailed out by the troika and now we are no longer running thing here. Its akin to a business going into receivership or even more appropriately a business running as going concern. Any other theoretical argument about using deposits of Irish people is null and void by the fact that they cannot be used to pay back this debt or to close the gap of our spend vs our expenditure as a county..

Sure why did you stop at Ireland why not all deposits in EU after all we are in teh EU right?

Fiery mutant

Valetta wrote: »

I think you don't understand the meaning of bankrupt.

In general it means you cannot meet your obligations as they fall due.

Ireland can.

We only can because someone else is giving us the money to meet those obligations. Without their help, we are bankrupt.

chopper6

Fiery mutant wrote: »

We only can because someone else is giving us the money to meet those obligations. Without their help, we are bankrupt.

But we're NOT bankrupt.


And there isnt half a million people on the dole.


Are any kinds of facts necessary at all to post here or can you just rant based on a personal grudge?

Valetta

fliball123 wrote: »

But you are trying to say that as an entity Ireland Inc has access to these deposits and assets when in effect they have not and if they tried to take them there would be a flight of both out of this country.

So back to my point the only measurements we can use is what we take in via taxes and what the government pay out for services, pensions, social welfare, repayments on debt and public sector wage.

At the moment there is an imbalance of 1 billion a month. There has been a build up of over 100 billion of this imbalance over the last 6 years or so and as a tax payer that is what is put in front of me and my kids and grandkids to pay back. I don't dispute that we are not backrupt ( I did say bankrupcy territory) but this is only because we got bailed out by the troika and now we are no longer running thing here. Its akin to a business going into receivership or even more appropriately a business running as growing concern. Any other theoretical argument about using deposits of Irish people is null and void by the fact that they cannot be used to pay back this debt or to close the gap of our spend vs our expenditure as a county..

Sure why did you stop at Ireland why not all deposits in EU after all we are in teh EU right?

I never mentioned using deposits to repay our debts.

The company I work for is solvent and profitable. However if all our creditors demanded immediate repayment we would not be able to meet them and would go under.

This is the same for most businesses, as it is for countries.

I agree that we are running a current account deficit and this needs to be rectified. It is akin to a business running a bank overdraft.... perfectly normal.

Neither is anywhere near bancrupsy.

Valetta

Fiery mutant wrote: »

We only can because someone else is giving us the money to meet those obligations. Without their help, we are bankrupt.

If we were bankrupt, or even showing signes of it we wouldn't have got the money from the IMF.

They had confidence in our ability to repay it, which we have done without any sign of default.

OMD

ardmacha wrote: »

This is only true if you ignore the pension levy, and if you do then any calculation is basically a falsehood.

A further widespread oft repeated falsehood is that private sector wages have fallen significantly, which in aggregate they have not.

I love the irony of you ignoring pension costs for private sector workers in your very next statement. Annuity rates are plummeting and have done so for the last 15-20 years. This is a combination of us all living longer and falling interest rates and for private pensions the government levy.

Everyone is paying dramatically more for their pensions than they were before to achieve an equivalent benefit.

Geuze

Valetta wrote: »

How much do we have in savings and deposits?

Household deposits data, from the Central Bank:

The total deposits held in resident credit institutions by Irish private households was €86.3 billion at end-June 2013, following a quarterly decrease of 0.7 per cent and an annual decrease of 0.5 per cent.

Valetta

Geuze wrote: »

Household deposits data, from the Central Bank:

The total deposits held in resident credit institutions by Irish private households was €86.3 billion at end-June 2013, following a quarterly decrease of 0.7 per cent and an annual decrease of 0.5 per cent.

I'm not sure where the difference is arising, but the link I posted earlier was from the Central Bank as well and gave the figure as €180 Billion.

Geuze

Cassius Dirty Molehill wrote: »

300,700 is the figure I read today.

Careful - the number of people unemployed is NOT the same as the number on the Live Register.


Unemployed = 300,000 from the QNHS
http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/labourmarket/2013/qnhs_q22013.pdf

Live Register = 440,000


Lots of people on the Live Register are employed, according to the ILO measure used in the QHNS.

Geuze

Valetta wrote: »

I'm not sure where the difference is arising, but the link I posted earlier was from the Central Bank as well and gave the figure as €180 Billion.

Yes, fair enough, these measures can get complex.

http://www.centralbank.ie/polstats/stats/cmab/Pages/HouseholdCredit.aspx

OMD

Valetta wrote: »

I'm not sure where the difference is arising, but the link I posted earlier was from the Central Bank as well and gave the figure as €180 Billion.

One is from households only. The other from all private sources.

Geuze

Central Bank data 2013.

Household net wealth = 464 bn

http://www.centralbank.ie/polstats/stats/qfaccounts/Documents/2013q1_ie_qfaccounts.pdf

Govt net liabilities = 229bn gross, note that they have cash assets as well

fliball123

Valetta wrote: »

I never mentioned using deposits to repay our debts.

The company I work for is solvent and profitable. However if all our creditors demanded immediate repayment we would not be able to meet them and would go under.

This is the same for most businesses, as it is for countries.

I agree that we are running a current account deficit and this needs to be rectified. It is akin to a business running a bank overdraft.... perfectly normal.

Neither is anywhere near bancrupsy.

Funny that the company you work for is it currently borrowing a billion a month to pay the bills? Or does it have a debt of over 100 billion to pay back with interest?

So do you think your company would survive with that as it business model?

We are still running as a country because the troika stepped in , gave us money and told us to get our deficit in order and then the slog begins when we have to start paying this debt back with interest. By the way have you tried to use your business overdraft facility you would be hard pressed to get one now with an irish bank the way they are at the moment..

And you did talk about deposits in terms of trying to balance the books as to what the country owes and what people in the country have on deposit (if it wasn't you it was a different poster and if it was a different poster, apologies)

fliball123

Valetta wrote: »

If we were bankrupt, or even showing signes of it we wouldn't have got the money from the IMF.

They had confidence in our ability to repay it, which we have done without any sign of default.

What until the banks start looking for recaptialisation when mortgage holders hit the bankruptcy button I have a feeling we may need further assistance from the troika. but that is a personal view

Valetta

fliball123 wrote: »

Funny that the company you work for is it currently borrowing a billion a month to pay the bills? Or does it have a debt of over 100 billion to pay back with interest?

So do you think your company would survive with that as it business model?

We are still running as a country because the troika stepped in , gave us money and told us to get our deficit in order and then the slog begins when we have to start paying this debt back with interest. By the way have you tried to use your business overdraft facility you would be hard pressed to get one now with an irish bank the way they are at the moment..

The first part of your post is meaningless as there is no context.

The troika didn't "give" us money. They loaned it to us and we are repaying it according to an agreed schedule, the same as businesses do all the time, without going bankrupt.

Banks are lending to viable businesses. Thankfully they are not lending to non-viable businesses.

creedp

OMD wrote: »

I love the irony of you ignoring pension costs for private sector workers in your very next statement. Annuity rates are plummeting and have done so for the last 15-20 years. This is a combination of us all living longer and falling interest rates and for private pensions the government levy.

Everyone is paying dramatically more for their pensions than they were before to achieve an equivalent benefit.

At least we know that on average private sector wages have increased by nearly 1% during the worst recession to probably ever have hit the country and this is despite the record numbers of people being unemployed. Obviously this is an average and doesn't reflect the position for an individual private sector worker. We also know that on average public sector wages have decreased by 1.8% over the same period plus a further cut (call it a pension levy if you wish) of on average 7.5%. As before this doesn't reflect the position for an individual public servant. Many senior public servant have taken up to 20% in gross pay cuts over that period (and are not entitled to increments as are on top of their scale).

And of course as their pension is based on their gross pay, their pension will also been reduced accordingly. So despite the oft referred to point that PS pensions are untouchable, you'll find that this, like many other, is just another urban ledgend. Another thread same arguments.