I thought we were broke!

Gloomtastic!

According to http://businessetc.thejournal.ie/weekly-earnings-cso-2-1057760-Aug2013/

"Weekly earnings in the public sector, including semi-state companies rose by 1.3 per cent in the year to the end of June, bringing average weekly earnings to €928.76. There was a one per cent rise in the private sector in the same period, putting weekly earnings at €623.17."

We're still borrowing €1billion a month because our costs outstrip our income. We have tax, after tax, after tax being introduced so we can balance the books.

I know it seems very strange in this bloody country, but how about cutting some of the friggin' costs for a change!!!!

srsly78

Maybe those figures mean they laid off loads of low-paid staff! The total spend could be less, even if the average is more.

Godge

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

According to http://businessetc.thejournal.ie/weekly-earnings-cso-2-1057760-Aug2013/

"Weekly earnings in the public sector, including semi-state companies rose by 1.3 per cent in the year to the end of June, bringing average weekly earnings to €928.76. There was a one per cent rise in the private sector in the same period, putting weekly earnings at €623.17."

We're still borrowing €1billion a month because our costs outstrip our income. We have tax, after tax, after tax being introduced so we can balance the books.

I know it seems very strange in this bloody country, but how about cutting some of the friggin' costs for a change!!!!

"In the four years to Q2 2013 public sector earnings have fallen by €17.30 (-1.8%), and this compares with an increase of €5.10 (+0.8%) in private sector average weekly earnings in the same period. See table 1 graph opposite."


The figures also don't take into account the pay cuts imposed on 1 July.

shedweller

Are the above figures a before or after tax figure?

Taxburden carrier

Godge wrote: »

"In the four years to Q2 2013 public sector earnings have fallen by €17.30 (-1.8%), and this compares with an increase of €5.10 (+0.8%) in private sector average weekly earnings in the same period. See table 1 graph opposite."


The figures also don't take into account the pay cuts imposed on 1 July.

Percentage of WHAT is the issue

Count Dooku

srsly78 wrote: »

Maybe those figures mean they laid off loads of low-paid staff! The total spend could be less, even if the average is more.

If average of 59K is low paid:eek:

CIVIL servants who took early retirement this year to avoid cuts in their pension got tax-free lump sums averaging €87,000 each.
And the average pension for the 1,424 civil servants who retired was €29,000.

http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/pensions/earlyretirement-civil-servants-get-average-lump-sum-of-87000-26849635.html

woodoo

Unless these figures are shown with the public sector (who suffered pension levy and pay-cut and staff reductions) presented separately from the semi states (untouched by any pay-cuts) then what is the point of them.

Geuze

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

According to http://businessetc.thejournal.ie/weekly-earnings-cso-2-1057760-Aug2013/

"We have tax, after tax, after tax being introduced so we can balance the books.

Note that tax revenues have actually fallen:

2007 current revenue = 60,392m

2012 current revenue = 52,200m

There may be some new taxes, e.g. LPT, but overall Govt revenues are down.

Data on page 20:

http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/economy/2012/nie_2012.pdf

Geuze

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

I know it seems very strange in this bloody country, but how about cutting some of the friggin' costs for a change!!!!

Total Govt expenditure has fallen:

2007 = 74,500m

2012 = 67,200m

Debt interest has increased from 2bn to 6bn, so non-interest exp has fallen even further.

Geuze

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

According to http://businessetc.thejournal.ie/weekly-earnings-cso-2-1057760-Aug2013/

"Weekly earnings in the public sector, including semi-state companies rose by 1.3 per cent in the year to the end of June, bringing average weekly earnings to €928.76. There was a one per cent rise in the private sector in the same period, putting weekly earnings at €623.17."

We're still borrowing €1billion a month because our costs outstrip our income. We have tax, after tax, after tax being introduced so we can balance the books.

I know it seems very strange in this bloody country, but how about cutting some of the friggin' costs for a change!!!!

PS pay has been cut three times.

New teachers pay has been cut 5 times, though one cut may be reversed.

Geuze

shedweller wrote: »

Are the above figures a before or after tax figure?

In statistics, e.g. CSO or Eurostat, wages are always quoted gross.

Gloomtastic!

Geuze wrote: »

PS pay has been cut three times.

New teachers pay has been cut 5 times, though one cut may be reversed.

The unions love to quote the plight of the new teachers. The existing teachers however, are still enjoying salaries well in excess of the majority of their OECD colleagues.

OMD

Geuze wrote: »

PS pay has been cut three times.

New teachers pay has been cut 5 times, though one cut may be reversed.

Pay has also being increased through increments for very many workers.

mariaalice

Was just thinking we haven't had a public services bashing thread in a long time.

Gloomtastic!

mariaalice wrote: »

Was just thinking we haven't had a public services bashing thread in a long time.

Yes, let's all give up and forget that we're broke. We have some the highest paid PS workers, pensioners and unemployed in the developed world and we're also the most in debt.

We don't do anything about it because our politicians haven't got the wherewithal to stand up to the vested interests. They want their jobs too!

Meanwhile idiots like me keep paying for everything while getting less and less in return.

Yes, let's just leave all well alone and get on with our lives regardless. Let the debts mount up - debts that are not paying for infrastructure or benefits to society as a whole, that's gone, a long time ago. No, it's debt to pay for the people in Ireland who believe they deserve to get handouts from the ever-decreasing number of taxpayers more than any of the other self-serving group.

I was shouting about it years ago and I'll keep shouting about it at every opportunity. It's wrong, just wrong and has to stop if this country is ever going to get back on it's feet again.

So if there's a PS bashing thread every day then good, because everyday one more person might try and do something about it!

barneystinson

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

Yes, let's all give up and forget that we're broke. We have some the highest paid PS workers, pensioners and unemployed in the developed world and we're also the most in debt.

We don't do anything about it because our politicians haven't got the wherewithal to stand up to the vested interests. They want their jobs too!

Meanwhile idiots like me keep paying for everything while getting less and less in return.

Yes, let's just leave all well alone and get on with our lives regardless. Let the debts mount up - debts that are not paying for infrastructure or benefits to society as a whole, that's gone, a long time ago. No, it's debt to pay for the people in Ireland who believe they deserve to get handouts from the ever-decreasing number of taxpayers more than any of the other self-serving group.

I was shouting about it years ago and I'll keep shouting about it at every opportunity. It's wrong, just wrong and has to stop if this country is ever going to get back on it's feet again.

So if there's a PS bashing thread every day then good, because everyday one more person might try and do something about it!

So what are you proposing? Besides Internet threads that lump together and denigrate a substantial chunk of the workforce in its entirety...

barneystinson

OMD wrote: »

Pay has also being increased through increments for very many workers.

So they've been paid in accordance with their contracts of employment..? Shock horror. Just like plenty of employees in large private sector companies.

Valetta

Thread title is misleading.

We're not broke.

mariaalice

Of course thing could be better and more controlled, however it is 1.3 and it includes the semi-states a lot of which are very profitable, you ignored all the pay cuts the public services has had. Its just that it is deflating how these threads turn in to rabbid foaming at the mouth rants about unions and public servants, assume all public servants are lazy, earing a kings ransom and will retire on a pension of ten million euro.

Then it descends to the yes, no, but, yes no no about comparing public service pay between here and some where else ( They always do it better some where else ) that then usually leads to nurses are way over payed in Ireland and we have too many of them anyway. Then you might get a little bit of misogyny thrown in at this point, as the vast majority of nurses are women. Following from that you get the privatise ever thing and crush the union while you are at it plus some mention of Reagen firing all the Air traffic controller's.

An the end no one is any wiser than they were, people have very entrenched position will thy will not shift from no matter what.

That does not mean there are not issues to be sorted out, but starting with a certain view point and ignoring all he evidence is not how thing get sorted.

Bits_n_Bobs

barneystinson wrote: »

Shock horror. Just like plenty of employees in large private sector companies who are not bankrupt.

FYP

Valetta

Quote:
Originally Posted by barneystinson
Shock horror. Just like plenty of employees in large private sector companies who are not bankrupt.

FYP

And I repeat..... ireland is not broke or bankrupt.

fliball123

Valetta wrote: »

Quote:
Originally Posted by barneystinson
Shock horror. Just like plenty of employees in large private sector companies who are not bankrupt.

FYP

And I repeat..... ireland is not broke or bankrupt.

How to you come to that conclusion? We owe over 100 billion and we are borrowing a billion a month. By any standard that would be cause for bankrupcy, I dont think there is a private institution in the world that would be still paying such high pay rates under these conditions..With one exception the banks which are now basically public sector banks and are being kept on life support by the government through my taxes, my 3 y.o olds future taxes and his kids taxes.

We are broke and someone intelligent needs to look at what we are spending..Yes i take on board we are taking in less money now then we were back in 2007 as some posters have pointed out but this is due to a diminished work force nearly half a million on the dole or getting subsidised for eduction or jobsbridge. A lot of these in 2007 were working and adding to the tax take.

Also you have to take into account how much we were taking in with stamp duty which dried up.

You cannot expect the tax payer to close this gap by themselves. We have already seen income tax increases through USC and PRSI, we have seen household tax and now the replacement to the TV license. Aswell as water charges on the way.. These are all hitting us harder and harder

Then the tax payer is also expected to pick up the tab for the banks, 1/2 million people on social welfare aswell as an overpaid , over-pensioned Public sector.

There needs to be cuts across the board on spending the tax payer gravy train is no longer a reliable source and will continue to diminish even if we up tax rates.

Valetta

fliball123 wrote: »

How to you come to that conclusion? We owe over 100 billion and we are borrowing a billion a month. .

How much do we have in savings and deposits?

Remenber "Ireland" is just a collection of all the citizens- not some abstract entity.

If "Ireland INC" was a company, we would have a positive Net Worth.

chopper6

fliball123 wrote: »

How to you come to that conclusion? We owe over 100 billion and we are borrowing a billion a month. By any standard that would be cause for bankrupcy, I dont think there is a private institution in the world that would be still paying such high pay rates under these conditions..With one exception the banks which are now basically public sector banks and are being kept on life support by the government through my taxes, my 3 y.o olds future taxes and his kids taxes.

We are broke and someone intelligent needs to look at what we are spending..Yes i take on board we are taking in less money now then we were back in 2007 as some posters have pointed out but this is due to a diminished work force nearly half a million on the dole or getting subsidised for eduction or jobsbridge. A lot of these in 2007 were working and adding to the tax take.

Also you have to take into account how much we were taking in with stamp duty which dried up.

You cannot expect the tax payer to close this gap by themselves. We have already seen income tax increases through USC and PRSI, we have seen household tax and now the replacement to the TV license. Aswell as water charges on the way.. These are all hitting us harder and harder

Then the tax payer is also expected to pick up the tab for the banks, 1/2 million people on social welfare aswell as an overpaid , over-pensioned Public sector.

There needs to be cuts across the board on spending the tax payer gravy train is no longer a reliable source and will continue to diminish even if we up tax rates.

Where do you get the figure of "nearly half a million on the dole"?


Surely the dole is costing more than PS wages and at no actual benefit to the exchequer.

TRS30

chopper6 wrote: »

Where do you get the figure of "nearly half a million on the dole"?


Surely the dole is costing more than PS wages and at no actual benefit to the exchequer.

Don't let Joan hear you say that! The 'dole' is the only thing keeping the economy/Ireland going

Count Dooku

If country is broke, why so much still paid for overseas aid?

Bits_n_Bobs

Count Dooku wrote: »

If country is broke, why so much still paid for overseas aid?

Sure we can borrow money, give it away, feel good about ourselves and wait for our kids to pay it back. What's the problem?

Godge

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

Yes, let's all give up and forget that we're broke. We have some the highest paid PS workers, pensioners and unemployed in the developed world and we're also the most in debt.

We don't anymore, following two paycuts and the pension levy.

Those at the top of the public service are now underpaid vis-a-vis both the private sector and many other countries.

SCOOP 64

chopper6 wrote: »

Where do you get the figure of "nearly half a million on the dole"?


Surely the dole is costing more than PS wages and at no actual benefit to the exchequer.

O no you don't ,had too many dole bashing threads this week, stick too the PS one.

Godge

mariaalice wrote: »

Of course thing could be better and more controlled, however it is 1.3 and it includes the semi-states a lot of which are very profitable, you ignored all the pay cuts the public services has had. Its just that it is deflating how these threads turn in to rabbid foaming at the mouth rants about unions and public servants, assume all public servants are lazy, earing a kings ransom and will retire on a pension of ten million euro.

Then it descends to the yes, no, but, yes no no about comparing public service pay between here and some where else ( They always do it better some where else ) that then usually leads to nurses are way over payed in Ireland and we have too many of them anyway. Then you might get a little bit of misogyny thrown in at this point, as the vast majority of nurses are women. Following from that you get the privatise ever thing and crush the union while you are at it plus some mention of Reagen firing all the Air traffic controller's.

An the end no one is any wiser than they were, people have very entrenched position will thy will not shift from no matter what.

That does not mean there are not issues to be sorted out, but starting with a certain view point and ignoring all he evidence is not how thing get sorted.

Excellent post and the usual suspects are at it again.

fliball123

Valetta wrote: »

How much do we have in savings and deposits?

Remenber "Ireland" is just a collection of all the citizens- not some abstract entity.

If "Ireland INC" was a company, we would have a positive Net Worth.

There isnt anywhere near 100 billion in deposits by Irish citizens so we are still in bankrupcy territory. Also if you taking into account savings and deposits..A little reminder of how much personal debt we have. Personal debt would easily wipe out any amount we have in savings and deposits..Thats if you want to look at it in those terms.. Good try but Ireland inc should be declared bankrupt either way