I thought we were broke!

Gloomtastic!

According to http://businessetc.thejournal.ie/weekly-earnings-cso-2-1057760-Aug2013/

"Weekly earnings in the public sector, including semi-state companies rose by 1.3 per cent in the year to the end of June, bringing average weekly earnings to €928.76. There was a one per cent rise in the private sector in the same period, putting weekly earnings at €623.17."

We're still borrowing €1billion a month because our costs outstrip our income. We have tax, after tax, after tax being introduced so we can balance the books.

I know it seems very strange in this bloody country, but how about cutting some of the friggin' costs for a change!!!!

srsly78

Maybe those figures mean they laid off loads of low-paid staff! The total spend could be less, even if the average is more.

Godge

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

According to http://businessetc.thejournal.ie/weekly-earnings-cso-2-1057760-Aug2013/

"Weekly earnings in the public sector, including semi-state companies rose by 1.3 per cent in the year to the end of June, bringing average weekly earnings to €928.76. There was a one per cent rise in the private sector in the same period, putting weekly earnings at €623.17."

We're still borrowing €1billion a month because our costs outstrip our income. We have tax, after tax, after tax being introduced so we can balance the books.

I know it seems very strange in this bloody country, but how about cutting some of the friggin' costs for a change!!!!

"In the four years to Q2 2013 public sector earnings have fallen by €17.30 (-1.8%), and this compares with an increase of €5.10 (+0.8%) in private sector average weekly earnings in the same period. See table 1 graph opposite."


The figures also don't take into account the pay cuts imposed on 1 July.

shedweller

Are the above figures a before or after tax figure?

Taxburden carrier

Godge wrote: »

"In the four years to Q2 2013 public sector earnings have fallen by €17.30 (-1.8%), and this compares with an increase of €5.10 (+0.8%) in private sector average weekly earnings in the same period. See table 1 graph opposite."


The figures also don't take into account the pay cuts imposed on 1 July.

Percentage of WHAT is the issue

Count Dooku

srsly78 wrote: »

Maybe those figures mean they laid off loads of low-paid staff! The total spend could be less, even if the average is more.

If average of 59K is low paid:eek:

CIVIL servants who took early retirement this year to avoid cuts in their pension got tax-free lump sums averaging €87,000 each.
And the average pension for the 1,424 civil servants who retired was €29,000.

http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/pensions/earlyretirement-civil-servants-get-average-lump-sum-of-87000-26849635.html

woodoo

Unless these figures are shown with the public sector (who suffered pension levy and pay-cut and staff reductions) presented separately from the semi states (untouched by any pay-cuts) then what is the point of them.

Geuze

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

According to http://businessetc.thejournal.ie/weekly-earnings-cso-2-1057760-Aug2013/

"We have tax, after tax, after tax being introduced so we can balance the books.

Note that tax revenues have actually fallen:

2007 current revenue = 60,392m

2012 current revenue = 52,200m

There may be some new taxes, e.g. LPT, but overall Govt revenues are down.

Data on page 20:

http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/economy/2012/nie_2012.pdf

Geuze

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

I know it seems very strange in this bloody country, but how about cutting some of the friggin' costs for a change!!!!

Total Govt expenditure has fallen:

2007 = 74,500m

2012 = 67,200m

Debt interest has increased from 2bn to 6bn, so non-interest exp has fallen even further.

Geuze

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

According to http://businessetc.thejournal.ie/weekly-earnings-cso-2-1057760-Aug2013/

"Weekly earnings in the public sector, including semi-state companies rose by 1.3 per cent in the year to the end of June, bringing average weekly earnings to €928.76. There was a one per cent rise in the private sector in the same period, putting weekly earnings at €623.17."

We're still borrowing €1billion a month because our costs outstrip our income. We have tax, after tax, after tax being introduced so we can balance the books.

I know it seems very strange in this bloody country, but how about cutting some of the friggin' costs for a change!!!!

PS pay has been cut three times.

New teachers pay has been cut 5 times, though one cut may be reversed.

Geuze

shedweller wrote: »

Are the above figures a before or after tax figure?

In statistics, e.g. CSO or Eurostat, wages are always quoted gross.

Gloomtastic!

Geuze wrote: »

PS pay has been cut three times.

New teachers pay has been cut 5 times, though one cut may be reversed.

The unions love to quote the plight of the new teachers. The existing teachers however, are still enjoying salaries well in excess of the majority of their OECD colleagues.

OMD

Geuze wrote: »

PS pay has been cut three times.

New teachers pay has been cut 5 times, though one cut may be reversed.

Pay has also being increased through increments for very many workers.

Was just thinking we haven't had a public services bashing thread in a long time.

Gloomtastic!

mariaalice wrote: »

Was just thinking we haven't had a public services bashing thread in a long time.

Yes, let's all give up and forget that we're broke. We have some the highest paid PS workers, pensioners and unemployed in the developed world and we're also the most in debt.

We don't do anything about it because our politicians haven't got the wherewithal to stand up to the vested interests. They want their jobs too!

Meanwhile idiots like me keep paying for everything while getting less and less in return.

Yes, let's just leave all well alone and get on with our lives regardless. Let the debts mount up - debts that are not paying for infrastructure or benefits to society as a whole, that's gone, a long time ago. No, it's debt to pay for the people in Ireland who believe they deserve to get handouts from the ever-decreasing number of taxpayers more than any of the other self-serving group.

I was shouting about it years ago and I'll keep shouting about it at every opportunity. It's wrong, just wrong and has to stop if this country is ever going to get back on it's feet again.

So if there's a PS bashing thread every day then good, because everyday one more person might try and do something about it!

barneystinson

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

Yes, let's all give up and forget that we're broke. We have some the highest paid PS workers, pensioners and unemployed in the developed world and we're also the most in debt.

We don't do anything about it because our politicians haven't got the wherewithal to stand up to the vested interests. They want their jobs too!

Meanwhile idiots like me keep paying for everything while getting less and less in return.

Yes, let's just leave all well alone and get on with our lives regardless. Let the debts mount up - debts that are not paying for infrastructure or benefits to society as a whole, that's gone, a long time ago. No, it's debt to pay for the people in Ireland who believe they deserve to get handouts from the ever-decreasing number of taxpayers more than any of the other self-serving group.

I was shouting about it years ago and I'll keep shouting about it at every opportunity. It's wrong, just wrong and has to stop if this country is ever going to get back on it's feet again.

So if there's a PS bashing thread every day then good, because everyday one more person might try and do something about it!

So what are you proposing? Besides Internet threads that lump together and denigrate a substantial chunk of the workforce in its entirety...

barneystinson

OMD wrote: »

Pay has also being increased through increments for very many workers.

So they've been paid in accordance with their contracts of employment..? Shock horror. Just like plenty of employees in large private sector companies.

Valetta

Thread title is misleading.

We're not broke.

Of course thing could be better and more controlled, however it is 1.3 and it includes the semi-states a lot of which are very profitable, you ignored all the pay cuts the public services has had. Its just that it is deflating how these threads turn in to rabbid foaming at the mouth rants about unions and public servants, assume all public servants are lazy, earing a kings ransom and will retire on a pension of ten million euro.

Then it descends to the yes, no, but, yes no no about comparing public service pay between here and some where else ( They always do it better some where else ) that then usually leads to nurses are way over payed in Ireland and we have too many of them anyway. Then you might get a little bit of misogyny thrown in at this point, as the vast majority of nurses are women. Following from that you get the privatise ever thing and crush the union while you are at it plus some mention of Reagen firing all the Air traffic controller's.

An the end no one is any wiser than they were, people have very entrenched position will thy will not shift from no matter what.

That does not mean there are not issues to be sorted out, but starting with a certain view point and ignoring all he evidence is not how thing get sorted.

Bits_n_Bobs

barneystinson wrote: »

Shock horror. Just like plenty of employees in large private sector companies who are not bankrupt.

FYP

Valetta

Quote:
Originally Posted by barneystinson
Shock horror. Just like plenty of employees in large private sector companies who are not bankrupt.

FYP

And I repeat..... ireland is not broke or bankrupt.

fliball123

Valetta wrote: »

Quote:
Originally Posted by barneystinson
Shock horror. Just like plenty of employees in large private sector companies who are not bankrupt.

FYP

And I repeat..... ireland is not broke or bankrupt.

How to you come to that conclusion? We owe over 100 billion and we are borrowing a billion a month. By any standard that would be cause for bankrupcy, I dont think there is a private institution in the world that would be still paying such high pay rates under these conditions..With one exception the banks which are now basically public sector banks and are being kept on life support by the government through my taxes, my 3 y.o olds future taxes and his kids taxes.

We are broke and someone intelligent needs to look at what we are spending..Yes i take on board we are taking in less money now then we were back in 2007 as some posters have pointed out but this is due to a diminished work force nearly half a million on the dole or getting subsidised for eduction or jobsbridge. A lot of these in 2007 were working and adding to the tax take.

Also you have to take into account how much we were taking in with stamp duty which dried up.

You cannot expect the tax payer to close this gap by themselves. We have already seen income tax increases through USC and PRSI, we have seen household tax and now the replacement to the TV license. Aswell as water charges on the way.. These are all hitting us harder and harder

Then the tax payer is also expected to pick up the tab for the banks, 1/2 million people on social welfare aswell as an overpaid , over-pensioned Public sector.

There needs to be cuts across the board on spending the tax payer gravy train is no longer a reliable source and will continue to diminish even if we up tax rates.

Valetta

fliball123 wrote: »

How to you come to that conclusion? We owe over 100 billion and we are borrowing a billion a month. .

How much do we have in savings and deposits?

Remenber "Ireland" is just a collection of all the citizens- not some abstract entity.

If "Ireland INC" was a company, we would have a positive Net Worth.

chopper6

fliball123 wrote: »

How to you come to that conclusion? We owe over 100 billion and we are borrowing a billion a month. By any standard that would be cause for bankrupcy, I dont think there is a private institution in the world that would be still paying such high pay rates under these conditions..With one exception the banks which are now basically public sector banks and are being kept on life support by the government through my taxes, my 3 y.o olds future taxes and his kids taxes.

We are broke and someone intelligent needs to look at what we are spending..Yes i take on board we are taking in less money now then we were back in 2007 as some posters have pointed out but this is due to a diminished work force nearly half a million on the dole or getting subsidised for eduction or jobsbridge. A lot of these in 2007 were working and adding to the tax take.

Also you have to take into account how much we were taking in with stamp duty which dried up.

You cannot expect the tax payer to close this gap by themselves. We have already seen income tax increases through USC and PRSI, we have seen household tax and now the replacement to the TV license. Aswell as water charges on the way.. These are all hitting us harder and harder

Then the tax payer is also expected to pick up the tab for the banks, 1/2 million people on social welfare aswell as an overpaid , over-pensioned Public sector.

There needs to be cuts across the board on spending the tax payer gravy train is no longer a reliable source and will continue to diminish even if we up tax rates.

Where do you get the figure of "nearly half a million on the dole"?


Surely the dole is costing more than PS wages and at no actual benefit to the exchequer.

TRS30

chopper6 wrote: »

Where do you get the figure of "nearly half a million on the dole"?


Surely the dole is costing more than PS wages and at no actual benefit to the exchequer.

Don't let Joan hear you say that! The 'dole' is the only thing keeping the economy/Ireland going

Count Dooku

If country is broke, why so much still paid for overseas aid?

Bits_n_Bobs

Count Dooku wrote: »

If country is broke, why so much still paid for overseas aid?

Sure we can borrow money, give it away, feel good about ourselves and wait for our kids to pay it back. What's the problem?

Godge

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

Yes, let's all give up and forget that we're broke. We have some the highest paid PS workers, pensioners and unemployed in the developed world and we're also the most in debt.

We don't anymore, following two paycuts and the pension levy.

Those at the top of the public service are now underpaid vis-a-vis both the private sector and many other countries.

SCOOP 64

chopper6 wrote: »

Where do you get the figure of "nearly half a million on the dole"?


Surely the dole is costing more than PS wages and at no actual benefit to the exchequer.

O no you don't ,had too many dole bashing threads this week, stick too the PS one.

Godge

mariaalice wrote: »

Of course thing could be better and more controlled, however it is 1.3 and it includes the semi-states a lot of which are very profitable, you ignored all the pay cuts the public services has had. Its just that it is deflating how these threads turn in to rabbid foaming at the mouth rants about unions and public servants, assume all public servants are lazy, earing a kings ransom and will retire on a pension of ten million euro.

Then it descends to the yes, no, but, yes no no about comparing public service pay between here and some where else ( They always do it better some where else ) that then usually leads to nurses are way over payed in Ireland and we have too many of them anyway. Then you might get a little bit of misogyny thrown in at this point, as the vast majority of nurses are women. Following from that you get the privatise ever thing and crush the union while you are at it plus some mention of Reagen firing all the Air traffic controller's.

An the end no one is any wiser than they were, people have very entrenched position will thy will not shift from no matter what.

That does not mean there are not issues to be sorted out, but starting with a certain view point and ignoring all he evidence is not how thing get sorted.

Excellent post and the usual suspects are at it again.

fliball123

Valetta wrote: »

How much do we have in savings and deposits?

Remenber "Ireland" is just a collection of all the citizens- not some abstract entity.

If "Ireland INC" was a company, we would have a positive Net Worth.

There isnt anywhere near 100 billion in deposits by Irish citizens so we are still in bankrupcy territory. Also if you taking into account savings and deposits..A little reminder of how much personal debt we have. Personal debt would easily wipe out any amount we have in savings and deposits..Thats if you want to look at it in those terms.. Good try but Ireland inc should be declared bankrupt either way

fliball123

chopper6 wrote: »

Where do you get the figure of "nearly half a million on the dole"?


Surely the dole is costing more than PS wages and at no actual benefit to the exchequer.

I said there are about 1/2 million either on the dole or being subisidised to work (jobsbridge) or going back to education (free college places, fas, etc)

fliball123

Godge wrote: »

We don't anymore, following two paycuts and the pension levy.

Those at the top of the public service are now underpaid vis-a-vis both the private sector and many other countries.

Have you any figures on that godge or is this just your opinion..Even if it is true (which I doubt) we are now one of the highest payers of tax when both direct and indirect taxes come into play..Does that mean I want see anymore coming out of my wage?

Godge

fliball123 wrote: »

.................

nearly half a million on the dole ...........



............., 1/2 million people on social welfare .

Which is it?

1/2 million on the doel or 1/2 million on social welfare???????


I don't mind intelligent rants backed up with relevant facts but at least make them consistent within themselves.

SCOOP 64

Godge wrote: »

Which is it?

1/2 million on the doel or 1/2 million on social welfare???????


I don't mind intelligent rants backed up with relevant facts but at least make them consistent within themselves.

400.000 or 450.000 on the dole what difference does it make.
still too bloody many!

Valetta

fliball123 wrote: »

There isnt anywhere near 100 billion in deposits by Irish citizens so we are still in bankrupcy territory. Also if you taking into account savings and deposits..A little reminder of how much personal debt we have. Personal debt would easily wipe out any amount we have in savings and deposits..Thats if you want to look at it in those terms.. Good try but Ireland inc should be declared bankrupt either way

According to the table here http://www.centralbank.ie/polstats/stats/cmab/Documents/ie_table_a.1_summary_irish_private_sector_credit_and_deposits.xls

private deposits amount to €180 Billion.

Total private sector debt is €108 Billion, but most of this is backed by property (83 Billion).

Also, a lot of the debt is double counted.

If I loan you €1,000 then you have a deposit of €1,000 but also a debt of €1,000, giving the impression that between us we have nothing, whereas we actually have €1,000.

We as a country are not broke.

OMD

barneystinson wrote: »

So they've been paid in accordance with their contracts of employment..? Shock horror. Just like plenty of employees in large private sector companies.

However you look at it their pay has gone up. I am not debating the entitlement of it just stating substantial numbers have had pay rises and many are earning more now than they were 6 years ago
Private sector workers getting pay rises is irrelevant.

ardmacha

However you look at it their pay has gone up. I am not debating the entitlement of it just stating substantial numbers have had pay rises and many are earning more now than they were 6 years ago

There is nothing remarkable about people progressing in their careers against a background of pay not rising.
You can state it, but it is drawing attention to nothing of use.

shedweller

Geuze wrote: »

In statistics, e.g. CSO or Eurostat, wages are always quoted gross.

So upon being paid this wage thats crippling the economy, a large percentage comes back as taxes immediately. Theres tax on goods too so that comes back over the month or week, depending on how that person is paid.
So the government pay out wages (to too many, i might add) and get a very large percentage of it back almost straight away.
Perhaps it might be better to mention the actual cost to us, after tax.

OMD

ardmacha wrote: »

There is nothing remarkable about people progressing in their careers against a background of pay not rising.
You can state it, but it is drawing attention to nothing of use.

But this is the reason why, despite so many people going on about numerous cuts to public sector, the average public sector worker's pay has only fallen 2.4% since 2009.

Can you imagine another company, facing bankruptcy, publicly stating it intends reducing salaries and after 4 years of "severe cuts" average pay has only reduced by 2.4%. That's not normal career progression. That's taking the piss.

The semi state bodies are not the reason for this by the way. Someone earlier was making that point.

zl1whqvjs75cdy

SCOOP 64 wrote: »

400.000 or 450.000 on the dole what difference does it make.
still too bloody many!

300,700 is the figure I read today.

fliball123

Valetta wrote: »

According to the table here http://www.centralbank.ie/polstats/stats/cmab/Documents/ie_table_a.1_summary_irish_private_sector_credit_and_deposits.xls

private deposits amount to €180 Billion.

Total private sector debt is €108 Billion, but most of this is backed by property (83 Billion).

Also, a lot of the debt is double counted.

If I loan you €1,000 then you have a deposit of €1,000 but also a debt of €1,000, giving the impression that between us we have nothing, whereas we actually have €1,000.

We as a country are not broke.

ok so if I take these figures that you have given what do you think would happen if the government tried to introduce say a wealth tax on deposits..Answer on the back of a postcard and send it to 2008 when there was a flight of money from the irish banks. So we are still bankrupt if we tried to take this cash it would be gone in the morning, the banks would collapse or we would need more reacapitalisation and the mire that we are in gets even worse. Not to mention that we are still borrowing 1 billion an month and the current debt and future debt will have to paid back with interest

The only instruments that can be used here is what the gov take in through tax (direct and indirect) what the owe out and how much they are borrowing as these are the only tools the government can access. Under this criteria we are in bankruptcy territory

OMD

shedweller wrote: »

Perhaps it might be better to mention the actual cost to us, after tax.

Sure. How do you calculate that. Obviously you have to take into account the benefits the workers get from paying this tax. Police, hospitals, other public sector workers etc. very difficult calculation to do. In some low case workers the cost to the state might be a lot more than their actual wages

Valetta

fliball123 wrote: »

ok so if I take these figures that you have given what do you think would happen if the government tried to introduce say a wealth tax on deposits..Answer on the back of a postcard and send it to 2008 when there was a flight of money from the irish banks. So we are still bankrupt if we tried to take this cash it would be gone in the morning, the banks would collapse or we would need more reacapitalisation and the mire that we are in gets even worse. Not to mention that we are still borrowing 1 billion an month and the current debt and future debt will have to paid back with interest

The only instruments that can be used here is what the gov take in through tax (direct and indirect) what the owe out and how much they are borrowing as these are the only tools the government can access. Under this criteria we are in bankruptcy territory

I think you don't understand the meaning of bankrupt.

In general it means you cannot meet your obligations as they fall due.

Ireland can.

The scenario you outline where everyone looks to withdraw their deposits is the same the world over.

It's the nature of the banking system, but doesn't mean we're bankrupt.

ardmacha

But this is the reason why, despite so many people going on about numerous cuts to public sector, the average public sector worker's pay has only fallen 2.4% since 2009.

This is only true if you ignore the pension levy, and if you do then any calculation is basically a falsehood.

A further widespread oft repeated falsehood is that private sector wages have fallen significantly, which in aggregate they have not.

fliball123

Valetta wrote: »

I think you don't understand the meaning of bankrupt.

In general it means you cannot meet your obligations as they fall due.

Ireland can.

The scenario you outline where everyone looks to withdraw their deposits is the same the world over.

It's the nature of the banking system, but doesn't mean we're bankrupt.

But you are trying to say that as an entity Ireland Inc has access to these deposits and assets when in effect they have not and if they tried to take them there would be a flight of both out of this country.

So back to my point the only measurements we can use is what we take in via taxes and what the government pay out for services, pensions, social welfare, repayments on debt and public sector wage.

At the moment there is an imbalance of 1 billion a month. There has been a build up of over 100 billion of this imbalance over the last 6 years or so and as a tax payer that is what is put in front of me and my kids and grandkids to pay back. I don't dispute that we are not backrupt ( I did say bankrupcy territory) but this is only because we got bailed out by the troika and now we are no longer running thing here. Its akin to a business going into receivership or even more appropriately a business running as going concern. Any other theoretical argument about using deposits of Irish people is null and void by the fact that they cannot be used to pay back this debt or to close the gap of our spend vs our expenditure as a county..

Sure why did you stop at Ireland why not all deposits in EU after all we are in teh EU right?

Fiery mutant

Valetta wrote: »

I think you don't understand the meaning of bankrupt.

In general it means you cannot meet your obligations as they fall due.

Ireland can.

We only can because someone else is giving us the money to meet those obligations. Without their help, we are bankrupt.

chopper6

Fiery mutant wrote: »

We only can because someone else is giving us the money to meet those obligations. Without their help, we are bankrupt.

But we're NOT bankrupt.


And there isnt half a million people on the dole.


Are any kinds of facts necessary at all to post here or can you just rant based on a personal grudge?

Valetta

fliball123 wrote: »

But you are trying to say that as an entity Ireland Inc has access to these deposits and assets when in effect they have not and if they tried to take them there would be a flight of both out of this country.

So back to my point the only measurements we can use is what we take in via taxes and what the government pay out for services, pensions, social welfare, repayments on debt and public sector wage.

At the moment there is an imbalance of 1 billion a month. There has been a build up of over 100 billion of this imbalance over the last 6 years or so and as a tax payer that is what is put in front of me and my kids and grandkids to pay back. I don't dispute that we are not backrupt ( I did say bankrupcy territory) but this is only because we got bailed out by the troika and now we are no longer running thing here. Its akin to a business going into receivership or even more appropriately a business running as growing concern. Any other theoretical argument about using deposits of Irish people is null and void by the fact that they cannot be used to pay back this debt or to close the gap of our spend vs our expenditure as a county..

Sure why did you stop at Ireland why not all deposits in EU after all we are in teh EU right?

I never mentioned using deposits to repay our debts.

The company I work for is solvent and profitable. However if all our creditors demanded immediate repayment we would not be able to meet them and would go under.

This is the same for most businesses, as it is for countries.

I agree that we are running a current account deficit and this needs to be rectified. It is akin to a business running a bank overdraft.... perfectly normal.

Neither is anywhere near bancrupsy.

Valetta

Fiery mutant wrote: »

We only can because someone else is giving us the money to meet those obligations. Without their help, we are bankrupt.

If we were bankrupt, or even showing signes of it we wouldn't have got the money from the IMF.

They had confidence in our ability to repay it, which we have done without any sign of default.

OMD

ardmacha wrote: »

This is only true if you ignore the pension levy, and if you do then any calculation is basically a falsehood.

A further widespread oft repeated falsehood is that private sector wages have fallen significantly, which in aggregate they have not.

I love the irony of you ignoring pension costs for private sector workers in your very next statement. Annuity rates are plummeting and have done so for the last 15-20 years. This is a combination of us all living longer and falling interest rates and for private pensions the government levy.

Everyone is paying dramatically more for their pensions than they were before to achieve an equivalent benefit.