Anna Gunn on Skyler

The Black Oil

New York Times piece.


Well, not surprisingly, the internet is the internet, and shock horror, actors read stuff about themselves online. But yeah, some of the stuff people say is pretty dick ish, really.

It’s notable that viewers have expressed similar feelings about other complex TV wives — Carmela Soprano of “The Sopranos,” Betty Draper of “Mad Men.” Male characters don’t seem to inspire this kind of public venting and vitriol.

That's kinda true, well, I can't say I noticed with The Sopranos as I tended not to read much internet stuff about it at the time. Betty in Mad Men, I think that's partly down January Jones and also that she's a very repressed character. There's a truckload of terrible male characters on TV, but I guess they're not written off in the same way. Thought this second point was interesting.

But I finally realized that most people’s hatred of Skyler had little to do with me and a lot to do with their own perception of women and wives. Because Skyler didn’t conform to a comfortable ideal of the archetypical female, she had become a kind of Rorschach test for society, a measure of our attitudes toward gender.

Personally, I've never gotten the Skyler hate, at all.

Sinfonia

I've been rewatching this week, I'm up to season 4; Skyler's an awesome character, and Anna Gunn's a great actress. Some of the more comic moments are gold.

When people cite the smoking while pregnant and sleeping with Ted Beneke as really horrible things, it's a bit watery really.
In the first example, she was in a bad state emotionally after realising that Walt was full of **** and smoked three and a half cigarettes.
In the second, she had already served Walt with divorce papers, which he was refusing to sign, and while she did sleep with Ted in order to try and force Walt to sign them (and, admittedly to upset him), Walt was at the time trying a power play by refusing to leave the house and so on.

In the 'world' of watching the show, it's easy to root for Walt because he's the central character and thus the most interesting, but in the real world, I don't think anyone would root for the drug-dealing murderer, and would probably forgive the wife her relatively minor transgressions.

Also, I think that people might be willing to somewhat forgive Walt, and Jesse, for the terrible things they've done, because there's always an element of righteousness in their reasoning (killing someone for the sake of someone else) or being backed into a corner (killing someone to save themselves).
Skyler's bad behaviour - in the above examples at least - is rooted more in stress and malice.

Rosy Posy

I think she's an incredibly strong and well developed character. I disliked her at the start because she walked all over Walt but if you look at it on balance she has been treated appallingly. Walt is rarely honest with her and has still been lying about the cancer. A lot of the things she does are ill advised but she is not aware of the reality of the situation, due to Walt's dishonesty. I think that she's a smart woman trying to make the best of a sh!t situation.

I find the online vitriol directed towards her to be misogynistic and quite disturbing, particularly references to her weight and to the actress personally.

Sinfonia

Rosy Posy wrote: »

A lot of the things she does are ill advised but she is not aware of the reality of the situation, due to Walt's dishonesty.

This is important, imo. For example, she essentially consents to everything once she can use the money to pay for Hank's treatment (commensurate with Walt's "it's for the sake of family"/ends-justify-the-means attitude), but I'm inclined to think that if she knew of the murders/deaths at that point, her attitude would be different.
I think that's overlooked a lot, that Walt, even when being honest, only goes so far as saying he manufactures meth for sale, without mentioning the violent crime involved. And the manufacture of meth can be (relatively) easily forgiven, or at least rationalised: Gale's position was that he was a libertarian, people want what they want, and it may as well be me who gives it to them, because they'll get it somewhere, and at least with me, it's a pure product.

snausages

I find her a stagnant character, which is why she annoys me. Didn't have this problem with her character in Deadwood. Didn't have any issues with Carmela. She reminds me of Rita in Dexter, just an obstruction for the main lead and an annoying one at that. People say that a lot of other characters in BB are underdeveloped. Well yeah, they are. But characters like Walt Jr or Skinny Pete or Marie aren't leads. Skyler is. In terms of the amount of screen-time she occupies she's second only to the two main leads. She should be every bit as layered as Walt and Jesse and I don't really find her to be at all.

Based on the events of Buried however it looks like they'll be doing interesting things with her character this season.

No doubt some of the hate is misogynistic but I really don't think that the hordes of women haters on iMDB and similar sites are at all representative of BB's viewerbase.

snausages

On a separate point, I'm not really convinced that hate for Carmela is really that widespread. I've never noticed it much. I think you really do have to be a misogynist to hate that character.

Janice, well now that's a different story. :mad:

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

people like carmela soprano? I hated her with a passion, almost as much as I ended up hating tony.


also yeah anna gunn was great in deadwood, although it was deadwood. all the characters are great in deadwood. there'd be a lot less of this "tv viewers hate women" nonsense if writers would actually write decent female characters instead of just shoehorning them in to do nothing.

snausages

Sinfonia wrote: »

I've been rewatching this week, I'm up to season 4; Skyler's an awesome character, and Anna Gunn's a great actress. Some of the more comic moments are gold.

When people cite the smoking while pregnant and sleeping with Ted Beneke as really horrible things, it's a bit watery really.
In the first example, she was in a bad state emotionally after realising that Walt was full of **** and smoked three and a half cigarettes.
In the second, she had already served Walt with divorce papers, which he was refusing to sign, and while she did sleep with Ted in order to try and force Walt to sign them (and, admittedly to upset him), Walt was at the time trying a power play by refusing to leave the house and so on.

In the 'world' of watching the show, it's easy to root for Walt because he's the central character and thus the most interesting, but in the real world, I don't think anyone would root for the drug-dealing murderer, and would probably forgive the wife her relatively minor transgressions.

Also, I think that people might be willing to somewhat forgive Walt, and Jesse, for the terrible things they've done, because there's always an element of righteousness in their reasoning (killing someone for the sake of someone else) or being backed into a corner (killing someone to save themselves).
Skyler's bad behaviour - in the above examples at least - is rooted more in stress and malice.

I think my problem with her personally comes down to the fact that she's entirely justified in most of her actions. A good character shouldn't necessarily be a 'good' character, imo. I think what makes Carmela so great are her flaws. She's a hypocrit. She's self-serving. She has her own inner-life that doesn't involve Tony. She's a bitch, but that's not such a bad thing really.

For me the best Skyler moments are when she helps Beneke cook the books and spends 600000 dollars of Walt's money making up for that mistake and when she puts on the ditsy secretary routine. When she's just acting out against Walt and smoking while pregnant it just doesn't make for compelling TV.

The Black Oil

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

people like carmela soprano? I hated her with a passion, almost as much as I ended up hating tony.

also yeah anna gunn was great in deadwood, although it was deadwood. all the characters are great in deadwood. there'd be a lot less of this "tv viewers hate women" nonsense if writers would actually write decent female characters instead of just shoehorning them in to do nothing.

There is that. Most of the characters I've liked over the past 3-4 years have been female. And actually, their being female wasn't really the main reason I liked them. It was that they had confidence, intelligence, balls and were capable of making decisions. They fitted well into the creative world the shows had constructed and would pass the Bechdel test. Unfortunately, I don't think they're in the majority that comes from laziness in the writing room as well as at executive level. Since the show is so popular in internetland the characters may seem more scrutinised. I wonder if they're reading sites outside of IMDB, etc.

Sinfonia

snausages wrote: »

I think my problem with her personally comes down to the fact that she's entirely justified in most of her actions. A good character shouldn't necessarily be a 'good' character, imo. I think what makes Carmela so great are her flaws. She's a hypocrit. She's self-serving. She has her own inner-life that doesn't involve Tony. She's a bitch, but that's not such a bad thing really.

For me the best Skyler moments are when she helps Beneke cook the books and spends 600000 dollars of Walt's money making up for that mistake and when she puts on the ditsy secretary routine. When she's just acting out against Walt and smoking while pregnant it just doesn't make for compelling TV.

Fair enough, I just don't think she's all that stagnant really, but that said, I don't feel like I've cared that much about her character recently. On the rewatch, I'm up to 405 at the moment, and she's been a consistently good character so far, so I'm kind of waiting for her to drop off the map a bit. But if that only happens halfway through season 4, and/or in season 5, then in the overall plot of the show, that's hardly that bad.

The Black Oil

I'm sure once the show is over and has faded people won't remember a lot about Skyler. They'll remember more about Walter, Jesse and Hank. That's down the dynamic of the show more than anything else, I think.

DeepBlue

What I don't get is the "If you don't like Skyler then you're a misogynist". It seems a bit of a stretch tbh.
And Gilligan complaining about viewers finding Skyler to be a bit of a bitch - well, you know, don't write her as a bitch in the first place and then maybe that might not have happened.

It's true that Skyler is now in an impossible position due to Walt but when she was originally presented in the early episodes she was already a control freak re: the credit cards, control over what Walt could and could not eat (tofu rashers) and then making Walt's cancer all about her (that intervention scene was hilarious) where it was her feelings and opinions that she thought was most important rather than the feelings and thoughts of the person who actually had the cancer.

That is how she was originally written and presented on the show - as someone unlikeable.
Strong women don't have to be unlikeable. Lydia is likeable even though she's a homicidal psychopath but Skyler isn't and that's down to how she's been written and presented and not due to latent prejudices that the viewers may have.

The Black Oil

I did a quick search for 'I like Skyler White' and the first couple of results were the opposite of that sentiment, with some words from Gilligan about misogyny, and then comments 'misogyny is the new racism', etc. It seems daft to suggest most criticism of female characters is rooted in misogyny. It's not as if Hollywood helps itself and personally, I reckon its over-reliance on young, attractive women as rape and murder victims in CSI et al is as damaging as other crappy portrayals.

snausages

Looking at those facebook pages there's still plenty of female hate for the character as well. Granted, it's predominantly male but I think that's more a reflection of the demographic of its viewerbase.

krudler

Skyler was annoying at first but now she's one of the core characters of the show, Anna Gunn plays her brilliantly.

ziggy

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Sinfonia

The Black Oil wrote: »

and then comments 'misogyny is the new racism', etc. It seems daft to suggest most criticism of female characters is rooted in misogyny.

I guess it's the question of whether or not she's deserving of such intense negative sentiment.
If you're coming from the angle that says no, then it's difficult to comprehend why the negative reaction is so vehemently strong, and so misogyny becomes a plausible explanation I suppose.

In the show, Walt has a downwards trajectory from good to bad, Jesse has an upward trajectory from bad to good. Is it not possible, that as we all know Jesse was only meant to be in it for one season, that the writers didn't intend Skyler to be sidelined and that her trajectory could have been an upwards slope from really unlikeable in the first season to the character that we most sympathise with come the end?

If that's the case, I think they're doing a great job. Skyler has become more likeable as the show has gone on. Maybe we'll see Hanks transcendence from good cop to bad cop by the end of the show?

April O Neill

Sinfonia wrote: »

When people cite the smoking while pregnant and sleeping with Ted Beneke as really horrible things, it's a bit watery really.

In the first example, she was in a bad state emotionally after realising that Walt was full of **** and smoked three and a half cigarettes.

In the second, she had already served Walt with divorce papers, which he was refusing to sign, and while she did sleep with Ted in order to try and force Walt to sign them (and, admittedly to upset him), Walt was at the time trying a power play by refusing to leave the house and so on.

+ to the 1.

April O Neill

snausages wrote: »

I find her a stagnant character, which is why she annoys me. Didn't have this problem with her character in Deadwood. Didn't have any issues with Carmela. She reminds me of Rita in Dexter, just an obstruction for the main lead and an annoying one at that. People say that a lot of other characters in BB are underdeveloped. Well yeah, they are. But characters like Walt Jr or Skinny Pete or Marie aren't leads. Skyler is. In terms of the amount of screen-time she occupies she's second only to the two main leads. She should be every bit as layered as Walt and Jesse and I don't really find her to be at all.

I'm glad there are obstructions such as Skylar in Walt's way! How could that be a bad thing?

I would say she is almost as complex as Walt, and more complex than Jesse.

April O Neill

snausages wrote: »

Janice, well now that's a different story. :mad:

My second favourite Sopranos character behind Tony. Great watchable character, fabulous actress.

April O Neill

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

people like carmela soprano? I hated her with a passion, almost as much as I ended up hating tony.

The key part bolded - ended up hating him. He was worse than Carmella the whole way through!

April O Neill

snausages wrote: »

Looking at those facebook pages there's still plenty of female hate for the character as well. Granted, it's predominantly male but I think that's more a reflection of the demographic of its viewerbase.

I don't think all the dislike is misogynistic, but just to point out, you can be female and hold misogynistic views.

April O Neill

ziggy wrote: »

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Why couldn't he? It wasn't Skyler's fault that he didn't tell her.

krudler

ziggy wrote: »

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He could have told her but didn't, I'm rewatching it from the start, halfway through season 2 now. And Skyler isn't as unlikeable as people make her out to be, she's just a regular worried mother and wife whose husband starts disappearing off without telling her what he's up to, anyone would get suspicious of it not think they were off breaking the law to help their family.

I'm actually rooting for her to come out of it all better off, herself and Walt had a fantastic scene in the latest episode, who knows where she'll wind up though.

biko

I never liked her (Skyler) but tbh I think it's because she's kinda the only one that actually does what a normal person would do in a situation like she's in.

Hank Scorpio

Lori from TWD is what I would call dislikable! Don't mind Skyler at all

snausages

Deleted User wrote: »

In the show, Walt has a downwards trajectory from good to bad, Jesse has an upward trajectory from bad to good. Is it not possible, that as we all know Jesse was only meant to be in it for one season, that the writers didn't intend Skyler to be sidelined and that her trajectory could have been an upwards slope from really unlikeable in the first season to the character that we most sympathise with come the end?

If that's the case, I think they're doing a great job. Skyler has become more likeable as the show has gone on. Maybe we'll see Hanks transcendence from good cop to bad cop by the end of the show?

I don't think that's what the writers intended, otherwise you wouldn't have the actress and the series creator coming out and arguing that people who don't like Skyler are either threatened by her or are latent misogynists.

I think they wrote her to be the moral centre of the show. I really don't think they wanted people to react against her the way they do. But for that to work you need a character who is sympathetic and Skyler ultimately is not (imo). It's not just a question of how morally good she is. Sopranos showed how it's possible to humanise evil people. But Skyler is just too abrasive. The show has done a reasonably good job at turning the viewer against Walt but a pretty poor one at convincing him/her that Skyler should be the subject of their sympathies. Given though just how sympathetic Martha Bullock in Deadwood, where she played a similarly hard-done by wife, it's clear that any fault lies not with Anna Gunn herself but with the writers.

snausages

April O Neill wrote: »

My second favourite Sopranos character behind Tony. Great watchable character, fabulous actress.

Yeah, she is. I enjoy hating her if that makes sense. Like Joffrey in GoT. She's one of those characters who's written to get that kind of reaction.

krudler

snausages wrote: »

Yeah, she is. I enjoy hating her if that makes sense. Like Joffrey in GoT. She's one of those characters who's written to get that kind of reaction.

Ah now comparing her to Joffrey is a stretch :pac:

April O Neill

snausages wrote: »

Yeah, she is. I enjoy hating her if that makes sense. Like Joffrey in GoT. She's one of those characters who's written to get that kind of reaction.

Her scenes with Tony are gold.