How can we limit the french invasion?

thomond2006

We don't want what is happening with South Africa at the moment, players going back to their French clubs when they should be on a rest week.

SpaceTime

I suppose this is always going to be a problem for smaller countries like Ireland as the clubs and national organisations will only have so much funding due to the scale of the market they are operating in.

It's even more of an issue for soccer where a serious professional domestic league has really never been viable at all as there's just no money being generated and all the players go off to the UK (and occasionally elsewhere) as the contracts and sponsorship options are just vastly more lucrative.

.ak

thomond2006 wrote: »

We don't want what is happening with South Africa at the moment, players going back to their French clubs when they should be on a rest week.

Interesting that a lot of people said Sexton wouldn't get flogged to death, but we're already seeing him starting both of RM's games when usually he would just be starting his preseason. I reckon he'll be wrecked come the Six Nations.

Winters

Good observation, George North has already made his debut for Northampton Saints, he came on for 20 minutes against Edinburgh on the weekend.

We wont see the likes of any of the centrally contracted players for another month, especially the Lions players.

.ak

Winters wrote: »

Good observation, George North has already made his debut for Northampton Saints, he came on for 20 minutes against Edinburgh on the weekend.

We wont see the likes of any of the centrally contracted players for another month, especially the Lions players.

Didn't know that. Interesting. Wonder if we'll see him in Donnybrook on Friday.

molloyjh

.ak wrote: »

Interesting that a lot of people said Sexton wouldn't get flogged to death, but we're already seeing him starting both of RM's games when usually he would just be starting his preseason. I reckon he'll be wrecked come the Six Nations.

I think Sexton is kind of the guinea pig in a way. It will be interesting to see how he goes this season and we probably won't really know for sure whether this whole "flogged to death" thing really stands up until February/March.

.ak wrote: »

Didn't know that. Interesting. Wonder if we'll see him in Donnybrook on Friday.

I'd say almost certainly. The English clubs tend to put out pretty strong sides for pre-season. Just look at the side we faced last year...

http://www.leinsterrugby.ie/team/results/644.php#.UhyBhtKxcXs

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

I think our international players are wrapped in cotton wool far too much.

.ak

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

I think our international players are wrapped in cotton wool far too much.

I agree, but I also think the French players are flogged. The AP has a decent middle ground imo.

who_me

.ak wrote: »

I agree, but I also think the French players are flogged. The AP has a decent middle ground imo.

Agree with all 3 points. In spite of our cotton-wool approach we've had more than our share of injury problems. But the French system is nuts - the length of the season and the intensity of it (is there any such thing as an easy T14 game any more? It's like a season of Munster v Leinster derbies).

who_me

Fireball07 wrote: »

"Ow can we limeet zees non-French eenvaayshun?"


Something along those lines... my French is a little lacking these days :P

ROG? Is that you?

Winters

who_me wrote: »

Agree with all 3 points. In spite of our cotton-wool approach we've had more than our share of injury problems. But the French system is nuts - the length of the season and the intensity of it (is there any such thing as an easy T14 game any more? It's like a season of Munster v Leinster derbies).

Certainly the 2 extra teams and the Barrage is just overkill. Some clubs are proposing increasing it to 16 teams.

There is so much money in French rugby now that the gap between the big clubs and the smaller clubs must be getting bigger.

I would worry somewhat about the danger of reliance on 'investors' at the clubs. The Anzhi example in soccer an obvious one.

Raisins

[Jackass] wrote: »

T I seriously doubt any player would bring their home union to the E.U. supreme court to fight it though.

They wouldn't have to. European Commission could institute infringement proceedings.

eyescreamcone wrote: »

However, you could maybe bring in a selection policy that you only pick home based players. ie a coaches choice - don't go as I prefer to pick home based players as they get more rest etc.

An unwritten rule would be as illegal as a written rule.

[Jackass] wrote: »

Details.

We both know it's perfectly easy to do. Where there's a will, and lawyers, there's a way: "For performance related targets, unless in extreme circumstances players outside the player welfare programme will not be considered for national representation."

They can move freely and take up employment wherever they wish.

When it comes to fighting big wages, it's our biggest weapon against it and is already used elsewhere and is the reason guys like Richie McCaw aren't lining out for Toulon each week.

Of course they can move wherever they wish but the reason it's illegal is that you're creating an obstacle to player movement within the EU and that's not allowed in just the same way as France is not allowed create obstacles to French people moving to Dublin to work in Google etc.

Obviously NZ are not in the EU so it's irrelevant.

Both FIFA and UEFA wanted to introduce quotas in starting line ups in soccer and eventually backed down. It's not an easy thing to do. If it was there would be quotas in lots of sports.

molloyjh

.ak wrote: »

I agree, but I also think the French players are flogged. The AP has a decent middle ground imo.

I'm not so sure. They are playing their first string players in their pre-season games which means they aren't a million miles off the French. Was the Northampton Director after the 2011 HEC Final not saying how tired their players were etc?

thomond2006

.ak wrote: »

Interesting that a lot of people said Sexton wouldn't get flogged to death, but we're already seeing him starting both of RM's games when usually he would just be starting his preseason. I reckon he'll be wrecked come the Six Nations.

I'd imagine he will play less when Hernandez comes back

irishbucsfan

I think the more pertinent question is: How can we prevent the Millenium Bug?

Winters

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

I think our international players are wrapped in cotton wool far too much.

Having the elite players peak at certain points during the season is one benefit, giving game time to younger players while the elite players are rested is another but perhaps the biggest advantage is the prolonging of the playing careers of centrally contracted players.

Of the top 10 player appearances in the Heineken Cup, 9 are Irish – amazing. Given the likes of Toulouse, Leicester and Scarlets (Llanelli) have such a long history in the competition that’s an incredible stat.

*I was going to use the top 10 appearances in the 6 Nations but Mike Gibson and Willie McBride being there confused my point!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Rugby_Cup
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Six_Nations_Championship_records

who_me

Winters wrote: »

Certainly the 2 extra teams and the Barrage is just overkill. Some clubs are proposing increasing it to 16 teams.

There is so much money in French rugby now that the gap between the big clubs and the smaller clubs must be getting bigger.

I would worry somewhat about the danger of reliance on 'investors' at the clubs. The Anzhi example in soccer an obvious one.

Not sure who the small clubs in French rugby are any more - Montpellier are a small-ish side (never won the T14, won the D2 once) yet have a big squad this year. Toulon were out of the T14 quite a bit, and look at them now. Likewise Racing Metro. Certainly some clubs are going to be left behind, but it's not clear (to me, at least) yet which ones.

The gap between French & non-French clubs is huge and growing, but alongside that you'd wonder about how they'll focus on the Euro competitions given their crazy season. This year's HEC final might be a worrying sign, but it might just be the off-the-pitch spending is more worrying/damaging than the on-the-pitch strength.

You'd wonder what the French management are thinking of the current trend too, a much smaller number playing (presumably) a higher standard of rugby. Rugby really is following in football's footsteps, albeit several years behind.

who_me

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I think the more pertinent question is: How can we prevent the Millenium Bug?

Fuggedabowtit! That's not going to happen for another -113 years.

[Jackass]

Regarding why keep our best players in the country, it's a no brainer...

Would it make a difference if Zebo, Murray, Earls, O'Connell, Sexton, Heaslip, O'Brien, Fitzgerald etc. all went off to France to get "experience"?

Of course it would. It's not only about the national team, competitive neigh dominant provinces is crucial to rugby in this country imo, so if all your best players are going abroad but being the superstars of the national team, how many star struck kids will go to Leinster training camps to get his autograph and how many season tickets will be sold to see all the national superstars in Blue or Red or White or Green? Would all the fans still show up week in week out if the provinces are losing or aren't amongst the best in Europe?

In terms of developing the sport, in terms of interest, youth participation, and media attention, the Provinces are now the bread and butter and are as - if not more so - responsible for the explosion in popularity for the sport in this country as the national team is.

Plus, you want the Pro12 to flourish, be the best league, and not just become a sub par competition until eventually everyone in Ireland supports Leicester or Toulon or Clermont as that's where the stars are, just like what happened soccer in this country - no domestic game, development of players collapses as local teams garner little interest and then all the best youth players head off to make it abroad and never play here. League of Ireland was as big in Ireland as English football at one point, but the lack of managing a domestic game means it's virtually dead since the late 70's / early 80's.

Keeping the provinces amongst the best is key to the success of rugby in this country, absolutely without question, and that means retaining as much of the best players as possible.

IF it becomes a case that several starting internationals are tempted abroad, and key players leave the provinces, then we'll start to have a serious problem. We can pay reasonable, but not excessive wages in this country. If the carrot is there for "preference" then, an unwritten rule of inclusion in the national team being based on playing domestically, then it's the strongest imaginable counter weight to the attraction of money abroad.

The problem isn't bad enough that people might see this as a drastic measure now, but give it 10 years and we could be looking at a very different landscape in European rugby, a bit of foresight is needed rather than "I told you so's" in retrospect. It may never be warrented and Sexton and maybe one or two others over that period might be exceptions to the rule, but for the long term protection of the sport in Ireland, if it becomes more and more common that players leave, then short term pain might be required to buck the trend, and that might mean dropping players because they've moved abroad, even if they would be in the team if they played at home.

Countries like Wales, South Africa - it's too late now. For a country like England, they're trying to buck a trend before it's too late. For France they are in serious trouble because of their imports. Their underage teams are sh*t and their senior team is at it's lowest point now than I can ever remember in my life time. Ireland has been a tough nut to crack for getting our players, and our problem might be so small now as it may have just started, I'm just of the opinion that you should put the insurance in place that everyone knows where they stand in terms of playing home or abroad, and as I said earlier, would make Connacht a much more attractive destination. I'd much prefer Madigan went to Connacht for game time and Sexton stayed at Leinster for his Irish jersey than Sexton go to France and Madigan be at Leinster and Leinster are weaker and Connacht are weaker than if the talent stayed on the Island.

andrewdcs

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I think the more pertinent question is: How can we prevent the Millenium Winter Vomiting Bug?

Podge_irl

Winters wrote: »

Of the top 10 player appearances in the Heineken Cup, 9 are Irish – amazing. Given the likes of Toulouse, Leicester and Scarlets (Llanelli) have such a long history in the competition that’s an incredible stat.

One could also (perhaps churlishly) claim that is also a result of the limited number of opportunities for younger players and experienced players playing much past their best but retaining their positions. There is certainly an element of that to it imo.

Podge_irl

[Jackass] wrote: »

Regarding why keep our best players in the country, it's a no brainer...

Would it make a difference if Zebo, Murray, Earls, O'Connell, Sexton, Heaslip, O'Brien, Fitzgerald etc. all went off to France to get "experience"?

Of course it would. It's not only about the national team, competitive neigh dominant provinces is crucial to rugby in this country imo, so if all your best players are going abroad but being the superstars of the national team, how many star struck kids will go to Leinster training camps to get his autograph and how many season tickets will be sold to see all the national superstars in Blue or Red or White or Green? Would all the fans still show up week in week out if the provinces are losing or aren't amongst the best in Europe?

In terms of developing the sport, in terms of interest, youth participation, and media attention, the Provinces are now the bread and butter and are as - if not more so - responsible for the explosion in popularity for the sport in this country as the national team is.

Plus, you want the Pro12 to flourish, be the best league, and not just become a sub par competition until eventually everyone in Ireland supports Leicester or Toulon or Clermont as that's where the stars are, just like what happened soccer in this country - no domestic game, development of players collapses as local teams garner little interest and then all the best youth players head off to make it abroad and never play here. League of Ireland was as big in Ireland as English football at one point, but the lack of managing a domestic game means it's virtually dead since the late 70's / early 80's.

Keeping the provinces amongst the best is key to the success of rugby in this country, absolutely without question, and that means retaining as much of the best players as possible.

IF it becomes a case that several starting internationals are tempted abroad, and key players leave the provinces, then we'll start to have a serious problem We can pay reasonable, but not excessive wages in this country. If the carrot is there for "preference" then, an unwritten rule of inclusion in the national team being based on playing domestically, then it's the strongest imaginable counter weight to the attraction of money abroad.

The problem isn't bad enough that people might see this as a drastic measure now, but give it 10 years and we could be looking at a very different landscape in European rugby, a bit of foresight is needed rather than "I told you so's" in retrospect. It may never be warrented and Sexton and maybe one or two others over that period might be exceptions to the rule, but for the long term protection of the sport in Ireland, if it becomes more and more common that players leave, then short term pain might be required to buck the trend, and that might mean dropping players because they've moved abroad, even if they would be in the team if they played at home.

Countries like Wales, South Africa - it's too late now. For a country like England, they're trying to buck a trend before it's too late. For France they are in serious trouble because of their imports. Their underage teams are sh*t and their senior team is at it's lowest point now than I can ever remember in my life time. Ireland has been a tough nut to crack for getting our players, and our problem might be so small now as it may have just started, I'm just of the opinion that you should put the insurance in place that everyone knows where they stand in terms of playing home or abroad, and as I said earlier, would make Connacht a much more attractive destination. I'd much prefer Madigan went to Connacht for game time and Sexton stayed at Leinster for his Irish jersey than Sexton go to France and Madigan be at Leinster and Leinster are weaker and Connacht are weaker than if the talent stayed on the Island.

I don't really disagree with much of what you're saying - I think strong provinces are very important to the future of rugby in this country and I certainly don't want to see all our best players leave these shores.

However, as regards the highlighted bit, I just think we're slightly overreacting to one player being slightly arsed around by the IRFU and leaving to become the 2nd highest paid player in France. Its a unique situation and I don't think we need to start worrying, and more to the point we don't need to instigate draconian measures, until signs of a trend emerge.