How can we limit the french invasion?

stpaddy99

any ideas?

is it a case of us fighting every inch to become more profitable?
do we simply have to pump way more cash into our rugby academies and try to become more self sufficient in developing our own talent like the all blacks?
do we try to get the IRFU to stump up more cash and offset future investments?

Its a major worry as the French are stealing all the best british and irish players, plus the stronger they get the more threats they make to destroy the Heineken cup , leaving us with just the rabo direct?

thomond2006

stpaddy99 wrote: »

any ideas?

is it a case of us fighting every inch to become more profitable?
do we simply have to pump way more cash into our rugby academies and try to become more self sufficient in developing our own talent like the all blacks?
do we try to get the IRFU to stump up more cash and offset future investments?

Its a major worry as the French are stealing all the best british and irish players, plus the stronger they get the more threats they make to destroy the Heineken cup , leaving us with just the rabo direct?

Why would they want to destroy the Heineken Cup?

Hagz

They've only taken one of our lads - Sexton. Our players are frequently flashed cash and they choose to stay at home. I'm not concerned at all to be honest.

Clareman

Personally I'd be asking how we can encourage the French invasion, at maximum we can have 4 players in any position and they will all be playing in the same league each week, the more players playing in other leagues the better.

With the player welfare and tax schemes in place I don't think we've to worry about a mass exodus any time soon, with us having roughly the same season as the French it also means that players won't be at risk of burning out like the Southern Hemisphere players experience when they come up for the cash.

jamiedav2011

Invasion?

Exodus surely?!

P_1

Building a few Martello Towers seemed to work well the last time, maybe build a few more? :P

molloyjh

We've only really lost Sexton and that was down to an IRFU blunder. His first preference was to stay.

And even for the fact that I called the Sexton thing and IRFU blunder it should be remembered that the set-up here - successful provinces with good set-ups and a national side that selects domestic players over ones playing abroad - has ensured that we've retained the vast majority of our talented players. Compare that to the Welsh set-up where a huge portion of the Welsh national squad now play outside Wales.

We may yet see a couple of players move on to France, but those with any serious chance of playing for Ireland will stay put unless they are head and shoulders above the other candidates (like Sexton). I don't think it's a big issue here.

Plus you'd have to think that sooner or later the French will need to change how they do things themselves. Who will be their out-half in the 6 Nations next year for example? All the top out-halves in France right now are foreign imports. The way the clubs have been building their squads over the last few years is hurting the national side. Surely that can only go on for so long....

irishbucsfan

I think we might even see some first team Irish internationals leave soon. Just because if you have an opportunity to live and work abroad then it must be really tempting to do so. Heaslip has said he'd fancy it in the past.

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I think we might even see some first team Irish internationals leave soon. Just because if you have an opportunity to live and work abroad then it must be really tempting to do so. Heaslip has said he'd fancy it in the past.

So did Drico as well. We'll wait and see, but if anyone playing in a position where there's competition for the green jersey would be inclined to stay I reckon.

Podge_irl

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I think we might even see some first team Irish internationals leave soon. Just because if you have an opportunity to live and work abroad then it must be really tempting to do so. Heaslip has said he'd fancy it in the past.

I can confirm that living in the south of France (sort of) is indeed not the worst thing in the world.

P_1

molloyjh wrote: »

Plus you'd have to think that sooner or later the French will need to change how they do things themselves. Who will be their out-half in the 6 Nations next year for example? All the top out-halves in France right now are foreign imports. The way the clubs have been building their squads over the last few years is hurting the national side. Surely that can only go on for so long....

That's actually a very interesting point, looking at the 'Starting' 10's of the Top 14 clubs doesn't make for good reading from a French international perspective.

Clermont: Brock James/Mike Delany
Toulon: Jonny Wilkinson/Matt Giteau
Toulouse: Luke MacAlister/Lionel Beauxis
Castres: Rémi Tales/Daniel Kirkpatrick
Montpellier: François Trinh-Duc/Hamish Gard
Racing Metro: Jonny Sexton/Jonathan Wisniewski
Perpignan: James Hook/Camille Lopez
Bayonne: Stephen Brett/Scott Spedding
Biarritz: Julien Peyrelongue/Daniel Waenga
Stade Francais: Morne Steyn/Jules Plisson
Grenoble: Valentin Courrent/Olly Barkley
Bordeaux: Nicolás Sánchez/Pierre Bernard
Oyonnax: Benjamin Urdapilleta/Conrad Barnard
Brive: Romain Sola/Thomas Laranjeira

So many teams relying on imported flyhalves can't be good.

Fireball07

11/28... roughly 40%.

In Ireland:

Munster- Ian Keatley/JJ Hanrahan
Leinster- Ian Madigan/Jimmy Gopperth
Ulster- Paddy Jackson/Ruan Pienaar
Connacht- Dan Parks/Miah Nikora


That's 4/8 = 50%.


Better percentage, but since France has more teams, it may be less of a worry for the national team. Okay, we've got Sexton too (and people like Steenson and McKinney, I suppose) but they also have Michalak and Parra who have actually played for France at 10 in recent enough times and weren't included.

[Jackass]

I would like to see a national representation rule, where you have to play for one of the provinces to be considered for Ireland.

By all means players can go abroad if we can't compete with the wages, but it's a massive carrot to fight for keeping our best players if it's a choice between money and 6 Nations / World Cup rugby.

It could also see some big names moving to Connacht if they're not getting game time but want to stay in Ireland.

eyescreamcone

[Jackass] wrote: »

I would like to see a national representation rule, where you have to play for one of the provinces to be considered for Ireland.

By all means players can go abroad if we can't compete with the wages, but it's a massive carrot to fight for keeping our best players if it's a choice between money and 6 Nations / World Cup rugby.

It could also see some big names moving to Connacht if they're not getting game time but want to stay in Ireland.

I couldn't see that being legal in the EU.

.ak

[Jackass] wrote: »

I would like to see a national representation rule, where you have to play for one of the provinces to be considered for Ireland.

By all means players can go abroad if we can't compete with the wages, but it's a massive carrot to fight for keeping our best players if it's a choice between money and 6 Nations / World Cup rugby.

It could also see some big names moving to Connacht if they're not getting game time but want to stay in Ireland.

But then you get an issue where our marquee players are essentially forced into taking smaller contracts. As a Leinster fan ofcourse I'm gutted to see Sexton playing for RM this season, but stepping away from my Leinster views for a second and putting myself in Sexton shoes - he rightly should have commanded the same wage as Heaslip, if not more. The fact the IRFU wouldn't offer it meant he had to move abroad.

Imagine then if there was a rule like the one you've mentioned in that scenario. We'd have Sexton being paid well below what he's worth. Okay from our point of view it doesn't mean much right? No skin off our noses, and we get to see our favourite player stay on these shores... But the reality of it is Sexton would've been criminally short changed and he needs to look after himself.

Podge_irl

Not to mention not playing Sexton would be criminally stupid.

molloyjh

Fireball07 wrote: »

11/28... roughly 40%.

In Ireland:

Munster- Ian Keatley/JJ Hanrahan
Leinster- Ian Madigan/Jimmy Gopperth
Ulster- Paddy Jackson/Ruan Pienaar
Connacht- Dan Parks/Miah Nikora


That's 4/8 = 50%.


Better percentage, but since France has more teams, it may be less of a worry for the national team. Okay, we've got Sexton too (and people like Steenson and McKinney, I suppose) but they also have Michalak and Parra who have actually played for France at 10 in recent enough times and weren't included.

Of the top 3 clubs in Ireland there is one foreign out-half, who is only just in this season because Sexton moved to France. In the top 6 clubs in France there's only 3 French out-halfs and only 2 of those are first choice. How many international quality French out-halfs on the list P_1 posted? As for Flaky Freddie (he was appalling in the 6 Nations) and Parra they are not international quality out-halfs and would be playing out of position if put in a 10 jersey.

Ireland have 1 definite international quality out-half with 2 younger lads very much up and coming. The French should be able to manage at least that and they can't right now.

[Jackass]

This isn't about any one player, it's about how to keep our players. Rule could be based going forward only and not retrospectively.

Regarding E.U. Law, it's nothing to do with employment, it's a union rule. I seriously doubt any player would bring their home union to the E.U. supreme court to fight it though.

P_1

molloyjh wrote: »

Of the top 3 clubs in Ireland there is one foreign out-half, who is only just in this season because Sexton moved to France. In the top 6 clubs in France there's only 3 French out-halfs and only 2 of those are first choice. How many international quality French out-halfs on the list P_1 posted? As for Flaky Freddie (he was appalling in the 6 Nations) and Parra they are not international quality out-halfs and would be playing out of position if put in a 10 jersey.

Ireland have 1 definite international quality out-half with 2 younger lads very much up and coming. The French should be able to manage at least that and they can't right now.

The last 4 flyhalves that France capped internationally were Jean-Marc Doussain, Camille Lopez, Francois Trinh-Duc and Flakey Freddie, only one of which plays regularly for one of the top club sides in that position. For such a pivotal position, that has to be a worrying trend.

eyescreamcone

[Jackass] wrote: »

This isn't about any one player, it's about how to keep our players. Rule could be based going forward only and not retrospectively.

Regarding E.U. Law, it's nothing to do with employment, it's a union rule. I seriously doubt any player would bring their home union to the E.U. supreme court to fight it though.

You can't restrict movement of workers.

It would mean that the IRFU could lower their salaries because the players were handcuffed to stay.

However, you could maybe bring in a selection policy that you only pick home based players. ie a coaches choice - don't go as I prefer to pick home based players as they get more rest etc.

[Jackass]

Details.

We both know it's perfectly easy to do. Where there's a will, and lawyers, there's a way: "For performance related targets, unless in extreme circumstances players outside the player welfare programme will not be considered for national representation."

They can move freely and take up employment wherever they wish.

When it comes to fighting big wages, it's our biggest weapon against it and is already used elsewhere and is the reason guys like Richie McCaw aren't lining out for Toulon each week.

molloyjh

P_1 wrote: »

The last 4 flyhalves that France capped internationally were Jean-Marc Doussain, Camille Lopez, Francois Trinh-Duc and Flakey Freddie, only one of which plays regularly for one of the top club sides in that position. For such a pivotal position, that has to be a worrying trend.

Absolutely. It has to impact the national side, and whether that will be allowed to continue or not will be interesting.

stephen_n

I think people slightly overrate the pull of the green jersey, Yes the players want to play but as the injury to EOM showed, it can be a very short career, therefore the choice between cash and caps will always an unbalanced contest. At the moment the tax incentive is probably a bigger factor than the green jersey, with wages going up all the time in France though, the offset effect of that may not be enough. Ruling players out who go abroad would only serve to damage our national team, as the ones who will go, will be the best players probably.

Buer

[Jackass] wrote: »

This isn't about any one player, it's about how to keep our players. Rule could be based going forward only and not retrospectively.

Regarding E.U. Law, it's nothing to do with employment, it's a union rule. I seriously doubt any player would bring their home union to the E.U. supreme court to fight it though.

It's not going to be a case of a player taking anyone anywhere. If the union is advised that such a rule is illegal under E.U. law, they will not bring it into existence in the first place. They can make sure they don't select people who play abroad but they'll never put an official rule in place.

Podge_irl

There is also the argument that having a certain number of Irish players playing abroad is a good thing as it widens the talent pool. Having Madigan and Sexton playing first team rugby can only be a good thing.

P_1

molloyjh wrote: »

Absolutely. It has to impact the national side, and whether that will be allowed to continue or not will be interesting.

A comparison with England where the main clubs have a majority of English flyhalves is interesting.

Saracens: Owen Farrell/Charlie Hodgson
Leicester: Toby Flood/Ryan Lamb
Harlequins: Nick Evans/Ben Botica
Northampton: Stephen Mylar/Glenn Dickson
Gloucester: Freddie Burns/Tim Taylor
Exeter: Gareth Steenson/Ceri Sweeney
Bath: Gavin Henson/Tom Heathcote
Wasps: Andy Goode/Joe Carlisle
London Irish: Ian Humphries/Myles Dorrian
Sale: Danny Cipriani/Nick Macleod
Worcester: Ignacio Mieres/Paul Warwick
Newcastle: Phil Goodman/Rory Clegg

who_me

There's probably a more telling debate going on in some French fora right now - "How do we limit the non-French invasion?".

In French, obviously...

CatFromHue

We have a home rule only rule light at the moment what with foreign players not being able to get released for all the Ireland camps, of which there are many.

Fireball07

who_me wrote: »

There's probably a more telling debate going on in some French fora right now - "How do we limit the non-French invasion?".

In French, obviously...

"Ow can we limeet zees non-French eenvaayshun?"


Something along those lines... my French is a little lacking these days :P

Micky Dolenz

The best Irish players should play for the national team regardless of were they make their living.

[Jackass]

[Jackass] wrote: »

This isn't about any one player, it's about how to keep our players. Rule could be based going forward only and not retrospectively.

Regarding E.U. Law, it's nothing to do with employment, it's a union rule. I seriously doubt any player would bring their home union to the E.U. supreme court to fight it though.

Why?

(serious question)

Why do we think it makes the most sense to keep the best players in Ireland? What are the arguments for this other than "that's always been the way".

Players are not mugs, they're fully aware of the need for rest and time needed for International camps etc.

Marquee Players moving to other countries to learn and earn should ensure that they are contractually afforded these necessities.

I personally would prefer to see our stars kept playing at the provinces, because I am a massive fan of provincial rugby, but I do not see top players leaving as a death toll.

RE: the law part. If it was worth 8 games a season at €6-€8k a pop and your 3 year deal in France meant that an illegal rule caused you to miss out on potentially ~€200k of earnings, you can bet that someone will take it to court. (And they should do)