How can we limit the french invasion?

stpaddy99

any ideas?

is it a case of us fighting every inch to become more profitable?
do we simply have to pump way more cash into our rugby academies and try to become more self sufficient in developing our own talent like the all blacks?
do we try to get the IRFU to stump up more cash and offset future investments?

Its a major worry as the French are stealing all the best british and irish players, plus the stronger they get the more threats they make to destroy the Heineken cup , leaving us with just the rabo direct?

thomond2006

stpaddy99 wrote: »

any ideas?

is it a case of us fighting every inch to become more profitable?
do we simply have to pump way more cash into our rugby academies and try to become more self sufficient in developing our own talent like the all blacks?
do we try to get the IRFU to stump up more cash and offset future investments?

Its a major worry as the French are stealing all the best british and irish players, plus the stronger they get the more threats they make to destroy the Heineken cup , leaving us with just the rabo direct?

Why would they want to destroy the Heineken Cup?

Hagz

They've only taken one of our lads - Sexton. Our players are frequently flashed cash and they choose to stay at home. I'm not concerned at all to be honest.

Clareman

Personally I'd be asking how we can encourage the French invasion, at maximum we can have 4 players in any position and they will all be playing in the same league each week, the more players playing in other leagues the better.

With the player welfare and tax schemes in place I don't think we've to worry about a mass exodus any time soon, with us having roughly the same season as the French it also means that players won't be at risk of burning out like the Southern Hemisphere players experience when they come up for the cash.

jamiedav2011

Invasion?

Exodus surely?!

P_1

Building a few Martello Towers seemed to work well the last time, maybe build a few more? :P

molloyjh

We've only really lost Sexton and that was down to an IRFU blunder. His first preference was to stay.

And even for the fact that I called the Sexton thing and IRFU blunder it should be remembered that the set-up here - successful provinces with good set-ups and a national side that selects domestic players over ones playing abroad - has ensured that we've retained the vast majority of our talented players. Compare that to the Welsh set-up where a huge portion of the Welsh national squad now play outside Wales.

We may yet see a couple of players move on to France, but those with any serious chance of playing for Ireland will stay put unless they are head and shoulders above the other candidates (like Sexton). I don't think it's a big issue here.

Plus you'd have to think that sooner or later the French will need to change how they do things themselves. Who will be their out-half in the 6 Nations next year for example? All the top out-halves in France right now are foreign imports. The way the clubs have been building their squads over the last few years is hurting the national side. Surely that can only go on for so long....

irishbucsfan

I think we might even see some first team Irish internationals leave soon. Just because if you have an opportunity to live and work abroad then it must be really tempting to do so. Heaslip has said he'd fancy it in the past.

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I think we might even see some first team Irish internationals leave soon. Just because if you have an opportunity to live and work abroad then it must be really tempting to do so. Heaslip has said he'd fancy it in the past.

So did Drico as well. We'll wait and see, but if anyone playing in a position where there's competition for the green jersey would be inclined to stay I reckon.

Podge_irl

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I think we might even see some first team Irish internationals leave soon. Just because if you have an opportunity to live and work abroad then it must be really tempting to do so. Heaslip has said he'd fancy it in the past.

I can confirm that living in the south of France (sort of) is indeed not the worst thing in the world.

P_1

molloyjh wrote: »

Plus you'd have to think that sooner or later the French will need to change how they do things themselves. Who will be their out-half in the 6 Nations next year for example? All the top out-halves in France right now are foreign imports. The way the clubs have been building their squads over the last few years is hurting the national side. Surely that can only go on for so long....

That's actually a very interesting point, looking at the 'Starting' 10's of the Top 14 clubs doesn't make for good reading from a French international perspective.

Clermont: Brock James/Mike Delany
Toulon: Jonny Wilkinson/Matt Giteau
Toulouse: Luke MacAlister/Lionel Beauxis
Castres: Rémi Tales/Daniel Kirkpatrick
Montpellier: François Trinh-Duc/Hamish Gard
Racing Metro: Jonny Sexton/Jonathan Wisniewski
Perpignan: James Hook/Camille Lopez
Bayonne: Stephen Brett/Scott Spedding
Biarritz: Julien Peyrelongue/Daniel Waenga
Stade Francais: Morne Steyn/Jules Plisson
Grenoble: Valentin Courrent/Olly Barkley
Bordeaux: Nicolás Sánchez/Pierre Bernard
Oyonnax: Benjamin Urdapilleta/Conrad Barnard
Brive: Romain Sola/Thomas Laranjeira

So many teams relying on imported flyhalves can't be good.

Fireball07

11/28... roughly 40%.

In Ireland:

Munster- Ian Keatley/JJ Hanrahan
Leinster- Ian Madigan/Jimmy Gopperth
Ulster- Paddy Jackson/Ruan Pienaar
Connacht- Dan Parks/Miah Nikora


That's 4/8 = 50%.


Better percentage, but since France has more teams, it may be less of a worry for the national team. Okay, we've got Sexton too (and people like Steenson and McKinney, I suppose) but they also have Michalak and Parra who have actually played for France at 10 in recent enough times and weren't included.

[Jackass]

I would like to see a national representation rule, where you have to play for one of the provinces to be considered for Ireland.

By all means players can go abroad if we can't compete with the wages, but it's a massive carrot to fight for keeping our best players if it's a choice between money and 6 Nations / World Cup rugby.

It could also see some big names moving to Connacht if they're not getting game time but want to stay in Ireland.

eyescreamcone

[Jackass] wrote: »

I would like to see a national representation rule, where you have to play for one of the provinces to be considered for Ireland.

By all means players can go abroad if we can't compete with the wages, but it's a massive carrot to fight for keeping our best players if it's a choice between money and 6 Nations / World Cup rugby.

It could also see some big names moving to Connacht if they're not getting game time but want to stay in Ireland.

I couldn't see that being legal in the EU.

.ak

[Jackass] wrote: »

I would like to see a national representation rule, where you have to play for one of the provinces to be considered for Ireland.

By all means players can go abroad if we can't compete with the wages, but it's a massive carrot to fight for keeping our best players if it's a choice between money and 6 Nations / World Cup rugby.

It could also see some big names moving to Connacht if they're not getting game time but want to stay in Ireland.

But then you get an issue where our marquee players are essentially forced into taking smaller contracts. As a Leinster fan ofcourse I'm gutted to see Sexton playing for RM this season, but stepping away from my Leinster views for a second and putting myself in Sexton shoes - he rightly should have commanded the same wage as Heaslip, if not more. The fact the IRFU wouldn't offer it meant he had to move abroad.

Imagine then if there was a rule like the one you've mentioned in that scenario. We'd have Sexton being paid well below what he's worth. Okay from our point of view it doesn't mean much right? No skin off our noses, and we get to see our favourite player stay on these shores... But the reality of it is Sexton would've been criminally short changed and he needs to look after himself.

Podge_irl

Not to mention not playing Sexton would be criminally stupid.

molloyjh

Fireball07 wrote: »

11/28... roughly 40%.

In Ireland:

Munster- Ian Keatley/JJ Hanrahan
Leinster- Ian Madigan/Jimmy Gopperth
Ulster- Paddy Jackson/Ruan Pienaar
Connacht- Dan Parks/Miah Nikora


That's 4/8 = 50%.


Better percentage, but since France has more teams, it may be less of a worry for the national team. Okay, we've got Sexton too (and people like Steenson and McKinney, I suppose) but they also have Michalak and Parra who have actually played for France at 10 in recent enough times and weren't included.

Of the top 3 clubs in Ireland there is one foreign out-half, who is only just in this season because Sexton moved to France. In the top 6 clubs in France there's only 3 French out-halfs and only 2 of those are first choice. How many international quality French out-halfs on the list P_1 posted? As for Flaky Freddie (he was appalling in the 6 Nations) and Parra they are not international quality out-halfs and would be playing out of position if put in a 10 jersey.

Ireland have 1 definite international quality out-half with 2 younger lads very much up and coming. The French should be able to manage at least that and they can't right now.

[Jackass]

This isn't about any one player, it's about how to keep our players. Rule could be based going forward only and not retrospectively.

Regarding E.U. Law, it's nothing to do with employment, it's a union rule. I seriously doubt any player would bring their home union to the E.U. supreme court to fight it though.

P_1

molloyjh wrote: »

Of the top 3 clubs in Ireland there is one foreign out-half, who is only just in this season because Sexton moved to France. In the top 6 clubs in France there's only 3 French out-halfs and only 2 of those are first choice. How many international quality French out-halfs on the list P_1 posted? As for Flaky Freddie (he was appalling in the 6 Nations) and Parra they are not international quality out-halfs and would be playing out of position if put in a 10 jersey.

Ireland have 1 definite international quality out-half with 2 younger lads very much up and coming. The French should be able to manage at least that and they can't right now.

The last 4 flyhalves that France capped internationally were Jean-Marc Doussain, Camille Lopez, Francois Trinh-Duc and Flakey Freddie, only one of which plays regularly for one of the top club sides in that position. For such a pivotal position, that has to be a worrying trend.

eyescreamcone

[Jackass] wrote: »

This isn't about any one player, it's about how to keep our players. Rule could be based going forward only and not retrospectively.

Regarding E.U. Law, it's nothing to do with employment, it's a union rule. I seriously doubt any player would bring their home union to the E.U. supreme court to fight it though.

You can't restrict movement of workers.

It would mean that the IRFU could lower their salaries because the players were handcuffed to stay.

However, you could maybe bring in a selection policy that you only pick home based players. ie a coaches choice - don't go as I prefer to pick home based players as they get more rest etc.

[Jackass]

Details.

We both know it's perfectly easy to do. Where there's a will, and lawyers, there's a way: "For performance related targets, unless in extreme circumstances players outside the player welfare programme will not be considered for national representation."

They can move freely and take up employment wherever they wish.

When it comes to fighting big wages, it's our biggest weapon against it and is already used elsewhere and is the reason guys like Richie McCaw aren't lining out for Toulon each week.

molloyjh

P_1 wrote: »

The last 4 flyhalves that France capped internationally were Jean-Marc Doussain, Camille Lopez, Francois Trinh-Duc and Flakey Freddie, only one of which plays regularly for one of the top club sides in that position. For such a pivotal position, that has to be a worrying trend.

Absolutely. It has to impact the national side, and whether that will be allowed to continue or not will be interesting.

stephen_n

I think people slightly overrate the pull of the green jersey, Yes the players want to play but as the injury to EOM showed, it can be a very short career, therefore the choice between cash and caps will always an unbalanced contest. At the moment the tax incentive is probably a bigger factor than the green jersey, with wages going up all the time in France though, the offset effect of that may not be enough. Ruling players out who go abroad would only serve to damage our national team, as the ones who will go, will be the best players probably.

Buer

[Jackass] wrote: »

This isn't about any one player, it's about how to keep our players. Rule could be based going forward only and not retrospectively.

Regarding E.U. Law, it's nothing to do with employment, it's a union rule. I seriously doubt any player would bring their home union to the E.U. supreme court to fight it though.

It's not going to be a case of a player taking anyone anywhere. If the union is advised that such a rule is illegal under E.U. law, they will not bring it into existence in the first place. They can make sure they don't select people who play abroad but they'll never put an official rule in place.

Podge_irl

There is also the argument that having a certain number of Irish players playing abroad is a good thing as it widens the talent pool. Having Madigan and Sexton playing first team rugby can only be a good thing.

P_1

molloyjh wrote: »

Absolutely. It has to impact the national side, and whether that will be allowed to continue or not will be interesting.

A comparison with England where the main clubs have a majority of English flyhalves is interesting.

Saracens: Owen Farrell/Charlie Hodgson
Leicester: Toby Flood/Ryan Lamb
Harlequins: Nick Evans/Ben Botica
Northampton: Stephen Mylar/Glenn Dickson
Gloucester: Freddie Burns/Tim Taylor
Exeter: Gareth Steenson/Ceri Sweeney
Bath: Gavin Henson/Tom Heathcote
Wasps: Andy Goode/Joe Carlisle
London Irish: Ian Humphries/Myles Dorrian
Sale: Danny Cipriani/Nick Macleod
Worcester: Ignacio Mieres/Paul Warwick
Newcastle: Phil Goodman/Rory Clegg

who_me

There's probably a more telling debate going on in some French fora right now - "How do we limit the non-French invasion?".

In French, obviously...

CatFromHue

We have a home rule only rule light at the moment what with foreign players not being able to get released for all the Ireland camps, of which there are many.

Fireball07

who_me wrote: »

There's probably a more telling debate going on in some French fora right now - "How do we limit the non-French invasion?".

In French, obviously...

"Ow can we limeet zees non-French eenvaayshun?"


Something along those lines... my French is a little lacking these days :P

Micky Dolenz

The best Irish players should play for the national team regardless of were they make their living.

[Jackass]

[Jackass] wrote: »

This isn't about any one player, it's about how to keep our players. Rule could be based going forward only and not retrospectively.

Regarding E.U. Law, it's nothing to do with employment, it's a union rule. I seriously doubt any player would bring their home union to the E.U. supreme court to fight it though.

Why?

(serious question)

Why do we think it makes the most sense to keep the best players in Ireland? What are the arguments for this other than "that's always been the way".

Players are not mugs, they're fully aware of the need for rest and time needed for International camps etc.

Marquee Players moving to other countries to learn and earn should ensure that they are contractually afforded these necessities.

I personally would prefer to see our stars kept playing at the provinces, because I am a massive fan of provincial rugby, but I do not see top players leaving as a death toll.

RE: the law part. If it was worth 8 games a season at €6-€8k a pop and your 3 year deal in France meant that an illegal rule caused you to miss out on potentially ~€200k of earnings, you can bet that someone will take it to court. (And they should do)

thomond2006

We don't want what is happening with South Africa at the moment, players going back to their French clubs when they should be on a rest week.

SpaceTime

I suppose this is always going to be a problem for smaller countries like Ireland as the clubs and national organisations will only have so much funding due to the scale of the market they are operating in.

It's even more of an issue for soccer where a serious professional domestic league has really never been viable at all as there's just no money being generated and all the players go off to the UK (and occasionally elsewhere) as the contracts and sponsorship options are just vastly more lucrative.

.ak

thomond2006 wrote: »

We don't want what is happening with South Africa at the moment, players going back to their French clubs when they should be on a rest week.

Interesting that a lot of people said Sexton wouldn't get flogged to death, but we're already seeing him starting both of RM's games when usually he would just be starting his preseason. I reckon he'll be wrecked come the Six Nations.

Winters

Good observation, George North has already made his debut for Northampton Saints, he came on for 20 minutes against Edinburgh on the weekend.

We wont see the likes of any of the centrally contracted players for another month, especially the Lions players.

.ak

Winters wrote: »

Good observation, George North has already made his debut for Northampton Saints, he came on for 20 minutes against Edinburgh on the weekend.

We wont see the likes of any of the centrally contracted players for another month, especially the Lions players.

Didn't know that. Interesting. Wonder if we'll see him in Donnybrook on Friday.

molloyjh

.ak wrote: »

Interesting that a lot of people said Sexton wouldn't get flogged to death, but we're already seeing him starting both of RM's games when usually he would just be starting his preseason. I reckon he'll be wrecked come the Six Nations.

I think Sexton is kind of the guinea pig in a way. It will be interesting to see how he goes this season and we probably won't really know for sure whether this whole "flogged to death" thing really stands up until February/March.

.ak wrote: »

Didn't know that. Interesting. Wonder if we'll see him in Donnybrook on Friday.

I'd say almost certainly. The English clubs tend to put out pretty strong sides for pre-season. Just look at the side we faced last year...

http://www.leinsterrugby.ie/team/results/644.php#.UhyBhtKxcXs

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

I think our international players are wrapped in cotton wool far too much.

.ak

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

I think our international players are wrapped in cotton wool far too much.

I agree, but I also think the French players are flogged. The AP has a decent middle ground imo.

who_me

.ak wrote: »

I agree, but I also think the French players are flogged. The AP has a decent middle ground imo.

Agree with all 3 points. In spite of our cotton-wool approach we've had more than our share of injury problems. But the French system is nuts - the length of the season and the intensity of it (is there any such thing as an easy T14 game any more? It's like a season of Munster v Leinster derbies).

who_me

Fireball07 wrote: »

"Ow can we limeet zees non-French eenvaayshun?"


Something along those lines... my French is a little lacking these days :P

ROG? Is that you?

Winters

who_me wrote: »

Agree with all 3 points. In spite of our cotton-wool approach we've had more than our share of injury problems. But the French system is nuts - the length of the season and the intensity of it (is there any such thing as an easy T14 game any more? It's like a season of Munster v Leinster derbies).

Certainly the 2 extra teams and the Barrage is just overkill. Some clubs are proposing increasing it to 16 teams.

There is so much money in French rugby now that the gap between the big clubs and the smaller clubs must be getting bigger.

I would worry somewhat about the danger of reliance on 'investors' at the clubs. The Anzhi example in soccer an obvious one.

Raisins

[Jackass] wrote: »

T I seriously doubt any player would bring their home union to the E.U. supreme court to fight it though.

They wouldn't have to. European Commission could institute infringement proceedings.

eyescreamcone wrote: »

However, you could maybe bring in a selection policy that you only pick home based players. ie a coaches choice - don't go as I prefer to pick home based players as they get more rest etc.

An unwritten rule would be as illegal as a written rule.

[Jackass] wrote: »

Details.

We both know it's perfectly easy to do. Where there's a will, and lawyers, there's a way: "For performance related targets, unless in extreme circumstances players outside the player welfare programme will not be considered for national representation."

They can move freely and take up employment wherever they wish.

When it comes to fighting big wages, it's our biggest weapon against it and is already used elsewhere and is the reason guys like Richie McCaw aren't lining out for Toulon each week.

Of course they can move wherever they wish but the reason it's illegal is that you're creating an obstacle to player movement within the EU and that's not allowed in just the same way as France is not allowed create obstacles to French people moving to Dublin to work in Google etc.

Obviously NZ are not in the EU so it's irrelevant.

Both FIFA and UEFA wanted to introduce quotas in starting line ups in soccer and eventually backed down. It's not an easy thing to do. If it was there would be quotas in lots of sports.

molloyjh

.ak wrote: »

I agree, but I also think the French players are flogged. The AP has a decent middle ground imo.

I'm not so sure. They are playing their first string players in their pre-season games which means they aren't a million miles off the French. Was the Northampton Director after the 2011 HEC Final not saying how tired their players were etc?

thomond2006

.ak wrote: »

Interesting that a lot of people said Sexton wouldn't get flogged to death, but we're already seeing him starting both of RM's games when usually he would just be starting his preseason. I reckon he'll be wrecked come the Six Nations.

I'd imagine he will play less when Hernandez comes back

irishbucsfan

I think the more pertinent question is: How can we prevent the Millenium Bug?

Winters

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

I think our international players are wrapped in cotton wool far too much.

Having the elite players peak at certain points during the season is one benefit, giving game time to younger players while the elite players are rested is another but perhaps the biggest advantage is the prolonging of the playing careers of centrally contracted players.

Of the top 10 player appearances in the Heineken Cup, 9 are Irish – amazing. Given the likes of Toulouse, Leicester and Scarlets (Llanelli) have such a long history in the competition that’s an incredible stat.

*I was going to use the top 10 appearances in the 6 Nations but Mike Gibson and Willie McBride being there confused my point!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Rugby_Cup
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Six_Nations_Championship_records

who_me

Winters wrote: »

Certainly the 2 extra teams and the Barrage is just overkill. Some clubs are proposing increasing it to 16 teams.

There is so much money in French rugby now that the gap between the big clubs and the smaller clubs must be getting bigger.

I would worry somewhat about the danger of reliance on 'investors' at the clubs. The Anzhi example in soccer an obvious one.

Not sure who the small clubs in French rugby are any more - Montpellier are a small-ish side (never won the T14, won the D2 once) yet have a big squad this year. Toulon were out of the T14 quite a bit, and look at them now. Likewise Racing Metro. Certainly some clubs are going to be left behind, but it's not clear (to me, at least) yet which ones.

The gap between French & non-French clubs is huge and growing, but alongside that you'd wonder about how they'll focus on the Euro competitions given their crazy season. This year's HEC final might be a worrying sign, but it might just be the off-the-pitch spending is more worrying/damaging than the on-the-pitch strength.

You'd wonder what the French management are thinking of the current trend too, a much smaller number playing (presumably) a higher standard of rugby. Rugby really is following in football's footsteps, albeit several years behind.

who_me

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I think the more pertinent question is: How can we prevent the Millenium Bug?

Fuggedabowtit! That's not going to happen for another -113 years.

[Jackass]

Regarding why keep our best players in the country, it's a no brainer...

Would it make a difference if Zebo, Murray, Earls, O'Connell, Sexton, Heaslip, O'Brien, Fitzgerald etc. all went off to France to get "experience"?

Of course it would. It's not only about the national team, competitive neigh dominant provinces is crucial to rugby in this country imo, so if all your best players are going abroad but being the superstars of the national team, how many star struck kids will go to Leinster training camps to get his autograph and how many season tickets will be sold to see all the national superstars in Blue or Red or White or Green? Would all the fans still show up week in week out if the provinces are losing or aren't amongst the best in Europe?

In terms of developing the sport, in terms of interest, youth participation, and media attention, the Provinces are now the bread and butter and are as - if not more so - responsible for the explosion in popularity for the sport in this country as the national team is.

Plus, you want the Pro12 to flourish, be the best league, and not just become a sub par competition until eventually everyone in Ireland supports Leicester or Toulon or Clermont as that's where the stars are, just like what happened soccer in this country - no domestic game, development of players collapses as local teams garner little interest and then all the best youth players head off to make it abroad and never play here. League of Ireland was as big in Ireland as English football at one point, but the lack of managing a domestic game means it's virtually dead since the late 70's / early 80's.

Keeping the provinces amongst the best is key to the success of rugby in this country, absolutely without question, and that means retaining as much of the best players as possible.

IF it becomes a case that several starting internationals are tempted abroad, and key players leave the provinces, then we'll start to have a serious problem. We can pay reasonable, but not excessive wages in this country. If the carrot is there for "preference" then, an unwritten rule of inclusion in the national team being based on playing domestically, then it's the strongest imaginable counter weight to the attraction of money abroad.

The problem isn't bad enough that people might see this as a drastic measure now, but give it 10 years and we could be looking at a very different landscape in European rugby, a bit of foresight is needed rather than "I told you so's" in retrospect. It may never be warrented and Sexton and maybe one or two others over that period might be exceptions to the rule, but for the long term protection of the sport in Ireland, if it becomes more and more common that players leave, then short term pain might be required to buck the trend, and that might mean dropping players because they've moved abroad, even if they would be in the team if they played at home.

Countries like Wales, South Africa - it's too late now. For a country like England, they're trying to buck a trend before it's too late. For France they are in serious trouble because of their imports. Their underage teams are sh*t and their senior team is at it's lowest point now than I can ever remember in my life time. Ireland has been a tough nut to crack for getting our players, and our problem might be so small now as it may have just started, I'm just of the opinion that you should put the insurance in place that everyone knows where they stand in terms of playing home or abroad, and as I said earlier, would make Connacht a much more attractive destination. I'd much prefer Madigan went to Connacht for game time and Sexton stayed at Leinster for his Irish jersey than Sexton go to France and Madigan be at Leinster and Leinster are weaker and Connacht are weaker than if the talent stayed on the Island.

andrewdcs

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I think the more pertinent question is: How can we prevent the Millenium Winter Vomiting Bug?