Tesla Model S: the safest car in the world?

rocky

rocky wrote: »

Is Tesla coming to the UK next year, any ideas on price?

Yes, I think it's to cost around 80,000 Pounds for the performance model 0-100 kph 4.2 seconds and 85 kwh battery.

Interestingly the chevy spark ev will have as much torque of 400 lbs but much less HP so it won't accelerate nearly as fast but it will still have a lot more poke than the leaf with 200 lbs torque, or 180 for the 2013 facelift.

Technique

Faster than an Aston Martin, 300 miles for a £4.50 charge...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUW0l7bZn1s

Technique

Technique wrote: »

Faster than an Aston Martin, 300 miles for a £4.50 charge...

Tesla will be offering lifetime free charging from their 100kw super chargers. And they have 9 or so already in Norway.

Tesla say they are working on 5 min 240 kw chargers. :eek:

One thing is for sure the Germans are the laughing stock of electric car production with the 80 mile E-golf and 80-90 mile BMW I3 which were only convenience due to German Law. German car makers have absolutely 0 interest in EV production.

I bet that will change very quickly now that Tesla is trashing German luxury car sales in the U.S !!!

corkgsxr

Will heat not become a big problem with these fast charges.

The Chevy spark will have almost the same torque of the Model S Sport, a lot less HP but that will really only effect top speed which the spark will be limited to 90 mph or so.

The Spark has a lot of potential and could be a lot of fun and can fast charge multiple times daily and cost around 20-22k after Government grant (hopefully) if not too much import duty is applied, dealer extortion etc.

Granted the range will be a lot less but it will cost a lot less also and if you can fast charge the range is 80 odd miles at 100 kph and in winter it will not be effected like the leaf because the Spark battery is heated, the heater will consume energy of course but the range should still be a lot more than the Leaf in winter.

The VW E-Golf is due to cost 33K Euro's maybe more in Ireland with the ridiculous 23% VAT. The BMW I3 40 odd grand and the Spark will be faster than them all.

corkgsxr

corkgsxr wrote: »

Will heat not become a big problem with these fast charges.

Not at all, the batteries are cooled. And in the case of the Model S, the battery is so big it can take the 100 kw without generating much heat.

The Smaller Spark EV has a small battery but it's capable of a high rate of charge much more than the tesla. But any heat will be pummped out with the a/c.

The Leaf has no cooling or heating, but unless fast charging a lot shouldn't be much of a problem and our summers don't get so hot.

The Leaf is not capable of multiple daily fast charges according to nissan.

Technique

Deleted User wrote: »

Tesla will be offering lifetime free charging from their 100kw super chargers. And they have 9 or so already in Norway.

Tesla say they are working on 5 min 240 kw chargers. :eek:

One thing is for sure the Germans are the laughing stock of electric car production with the 80 mile E-golf and 80-90 mile BMW I3 which were only convenience due to German Law. German car makers have absolutely 0 interest in EV production.

I bet that will change very quickly now that Tesla is trashing German luxury car sales in the U.S !!!

If you were in the market for that type of car, you'd be mad not to seriously consider it.

Technique

Technique wrote: »

If you were in the market for that type of car, you'd be mad not to seriously consider it.

Indeed and that's exactly what the Americans are saying too and actually doing !

And for the average man I would strongly advise the Spark EV. Why ?

OK 0-60 in 7.5 seconds compared to 11-14 seconds average car in Ireland with a tiny fraction of the running costs.

on a 100 miles daily commute you might need just 5-10 mins on a fast charger, to me that is a minor inconvenience and if the charging is free and the Spark can take multiple daily fast charging I might consider doing at least half of my charging on a free fast charger.

Only thing is the fast chargers currently installed are incomparable with the American/E.U electric cars because they decided not to adopt the Japanese fast charge standard as currently in the Leaf/Imev.

This seems like madness considering the amount of fast chargers currently in Ireland alone. and there are 0 for the new E.U/U.S cars.

What a headache for the ESB that's for sure. The new chargers will mist likely have CHAdeMO (Jap) and SAE (E.U/U.S)

I would like to see faster than the 50kw chargers for the Leaf being installed because the Spark charges in 20 mins 0-80% compared to 30 mins for the Leaf. I don't know what KW the Spark charges at yet.

Matt Simis

Deleted User wrote: »

One thing is for sure the Germans are the laughing stock of electric car production with the 80 mile E-golf and 80-90 mile BMW I3 which were only convenience due to German Law. German car makers have absolutely 0 interest in EV production.

I bet that will change very quickly now that Tesla is trashing German luxury car sales in the U.S !!!

Considering "electric car production" is a commercially an unproven fringe area, that statement holds little weight.

Besides, in a thread about the Tesla, the most relevant BMW competitor is their hybrid 2014 BMW i8:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_i8

385BHP
Combined highest in class BHP per litre 3cylinder ICE + electric drive
4.5seconds to 60mph/100kph
600kph range
An effective 113mpg/2.5L/100km fuel economy
A staggering 600kg lighter than the Tesla Model S
A top speed far in excess of the Tesla (this is German, top speed matters): A limited 155mph/250kph


In a nutshell, they arent trying to make a Tesla, they are combining technologies for a best fit: Enough range in electric mode (35km) to cross a city with zero emissions, high power and top speed to cross a country with ease combined with the expected range to do so, perfect weight distribution and the low weight to maintain their sport cache.

On a track or backroad, it will handily run rings around even the performance Model S due to dead weight, distribution, powerband and decades of experience in sport coupes.

Matt Simis

Matt Simis wrote: »

Considering "electric car production" is a commercially an unproven fringe area, that statement holds little weight.

Besides, in a thread about the Tesla, the most relevant BMW competitor is their hybrid 2014 BMW i8:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_i8

385BHP
Combined highest in class BHP per litre 3cylinder ICE + electric drive
4.5seconds to 60mph/100kph
600kph range
An effective 113mpg/2.5L/100km fuel economy
A staggering 600kg lighter than the Tesla Model S
A top speed far in excess of the Tesla (this is German, top speed matters): A limited 155mph/250kph


In a nutshell, they arent trying to make a Tesla, they are combining technologies for a best fit: Enough range in electric mode (35km) to cross a city with zero emissions, high power and top speed to cross a country with ease combined with the expected range to do so, perfect weight distribution and the low weight to maintain their sport cache.

On a track or backroad, it will handily run rings around even the performance Model S due to dead weight, distribution, powerband and decades of experience in sport coupes.

Tesla have no competitors in electric car production. Certainly the German brands can not get close. They will catch up eventually though especially as they start to loose sales and that's happening already as Americans buy more Teslas.

Sure the I8 is a good "hybrid" but for electric car production, the Europeans are miles behind.

For most people the I8 will be far too expensive, because it has an ICE VRT will be applied and it may be small but still add to an already very expensive car even before VRT and for what ?

The Model S will cost a lot less and still do 265 miles average, I can't see many people needing more than this and I doubt many Americans will pay that much for a Hybrid considering the extra cost.

The I8 consumption figures are also based on the very poor NEDC test, which will mean 10 or so mpg less than stated, still good but at a high cost.

So far In the U.S at least people have proved they want the Model S over the German luxury brands with more range despite fuel costing half compared to the E.U. I think that says it all and I don't believe Americans would be willing to pay 40K-50K extra on a German car so they can do 100 miles or less extra when the Model S will meed 100% of their needs with the super charging network.

And yes the Germans can't produce a proper electric car because they have not got the expertise, but they are excellent car makers, novone can deny. The I3 is a poor attempt of a EV by Tesla standards, and an expensive one at that making the Spark all the more attractive.

Elon Musk has also said an affordable 200 mile range EV will be available in 2-3 years. And they will do it and so the rest of the worlds car makers need to wake up. It will probably cost less than a VW Golf 2.0 TDI too from what I've read.

One of the problems for car makers is the battery and Tesla use existing battery format cells, i.e 18650 laptop size cells which already in production for many years greatly reduce costs, but not only that but Tesla was able to make the packs exactly for the model S unlike most other car makers who depend on EV specific cells which are bigger and heavier.

So only Tesla can do it for now. BMW, VW, Merc can only watch as they continue to build far better electric cars.

Matt Simis

Deleted User wrote: »

Tesla have no competitors in electric car production. Certainly the German brands can not get close. ier.

So only Tesla can do it for now. BMW, VW, Merc can only watch as they continue to build far better electric cars.

That was my point.. you are claiming people want electric cars. They dont, they want better cars (generally), not specifically Electrics. Compare and contrast the Tesla (which I love) to the I8 (and others) and if you can "unemote" yourself from EVs you can see how they compete as peers. The notion of "laughability" then seems a bit silly. No one cares about the drivetrain, they want a package, its reasons like this the German makers beat the Americans the first time around.

You also need to stop bringing VRT into things, an Irish issue and no maker is going to make it or not selling cars here. Its irrelevant and subject to changes at any time in the future.

Your pricing is a little off btw, Autocar says the UK (again forget Ireland) pricing is £82k starting price for the Model S, not clear if thats the Signature S Performance edition. The I8 might be around £100k, not announced yet.

Matt Simis

Matt Simis wrote: »

That was my point.. you are claiming people want electric cars. They dont, they want better cars (generally), not specifically Electrics. Compare and contrast the Tesla (which I love) to the I8 (and others) and if you can "unemote" yourself from EVs you can see how they compete as peers. The notion of "laughability" then seems a bit silly. No one cares about the drivetrain, they want a package, its reasons like this the German makers beat the Americans the first time around.

I think after getting the spin in the leaf I realise how good electric drive is, (to me) the Spark will have twice the torque, or just over and I can imaging this being incredible, all 400 lbs of it. And the more experience with electric and the more people talk about them the more people "will" want them.

I never suggested electric is for everyone but they should at least drive one before making judgement.

And they are cheaper to run by far. And this is what the average motorist cares about most. Equal purchase cost considered. And compared to similar, i.e A leaf will depreciate no more than a normal Nissan etc.

We'll let the proof come in the car sales then shall we ? and currently as it stands now Tesla is outselling the German Luxury brands, which I don't think it ever intended to compete with. Will the trend continue ? that's anyone's guess.

German car makers do not want to develop or build electric cars because they are so profitable, but they have to because the German Government insists they do, but the reality is no German manufacturer can make an EV as good as the Model S (yet)

I'm sure the I8 will be a great car and will find homes, but we will let the sales do the talking.

Matt Simis wrote: »

You also need to stop bringing VRT into things, an Irish issue and no maker is going to make it or not selling cars here. Its irrelevant and subject to changes at any time in the future.

It is relevant to us Matt, The Model S will have 0 VRT and a 5000 grant which I don't approve of for a luxury car.

I doubt anyone who buys such a car cares about fuel economy, so one would assume they care more about them being e.v, hybrid or both ? maybe also the driving performance, difference.

Matt Simis wrote: »

Your pricing is a little off btw, Autocar says the UK (again forget Ireland) pricing is £82k starting price for the Model S, not clear if thats the Signature S Performance edition. The I8 might be around £100k, not announced yet.

Auto express says the I8 will be around 100,000 Pounds. That's 20k more than the Model S going by U,K prices.

Matt Simis

Deleted User wrote: »

We'll let the proof come in the car sales then shall we ? and currently as it stands now Tesla is outselling the German Luxury brands, which I don't think it ever intended to compete with. Will the trend continue ? that's anyone's guess.

Thats completely incorrect!? Tesla are doing great and sold 10,000 units in 1h 2013 but you are getting swept up by wording. Not only did they not outsell the entire German "brands", they dont even outsell the E-Class or 5 series (which is what the Model S targets, upper models within those ranges, not the S and 7):
This compares to:

Note chart omits lower end models from German brands (C-class, 3 Series etc).

Deleted User wrote: »

It is relevant to us Matt, The Model S will have 0 VRT and a 5000 grant which I don't approve of for a luxury car.

No, we as in Ireland dont matter in the automotive world. To get a grasp on whats happening and coming, look abroad. The VRT rate of one being lower than the other makes no difference in the grand scheme of things as the future of this industry will be driven by external factors.

Deleted User wrote: »

Auto express says the I8 will be around 100,000 Pounds. That's 20k more than the Model S going by U,K prices.

They also say it will be £86k, in the actual body text:
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/bmw/i8/65361/bmw-i8-2013-price-and-release-date-revealed

In fact, the price is the only issue at the moment. a senior BMW figure admitted the i8 will cost in excess of 100,000 Euros (about £86,000). However, we think it could turn out to be one of the most dynamically capable BMWs ever, and a truly alternative 21st century sports car.

Oh well , Seems like I got that wrong. There were different reports though on that earlier, unless the total figures are known now ?

Maybe they would do a whole lot better if they had the production capacity ?

Chevy Spark for me then, poor o'l me.

Media999

Matt Simis wrote: »

That was my point.. you are claiming people want electric cars. They dont, they want better cars (generally), not specifically Electrics.

Wouldnt agree with that. I want it because its electric. Also what makes it better is the fact its electric. Instant torque, Silence and analytics all the byproducts of being electric. No servicing from what i understand as theres very little or no oil in it. Far less costs involved. Tesla wins in every way for me.

Im a gadget freak and love the idea of a whole car having the analytics which a Tesla has. Everyting is so precise and visible in analytics. For me its like the future is now. Elon Musk wants to change the world.

Couldnt afford a model S just yet but if the future planned cars come inline with a passat or something with credit agreements like they do in the states id get one tomorrow if i could. Savings on petrol alone would pay for it sure.

HandsomeDan

They should turbo charge the model s. It would improve power, emissions and even could have an effect on crash safety.

Media999

HandsomeDan wrote: »

They should turbo charge the model s. It would improve power, emissions and even could have an effect on crash safety.

How do you turbo charge a car with no emissions?

Matt Simis

Media999 wrote: »

How do you turbo charge a car with no emissions?

That was probably the joke, highlighting the fact what "you" want vs what "people" want are different things. For the few that are EV enthusiasts, the Tesla looks like the Messiah. To everyone else its a very good car with some unorthodox requirements day to day. But its not something that makes say a 2013 740d "laughable", let alone the i8 (which Im not overly gone on myself).


BTW, in what manner did you think he was suggesting turbo charging would increase crash safety results btw?

Media999

Actually didnt even kop on to the joke to be honest.

I think people need to drive electric cars and make their own minds up.

Comparing ICE to EV is just too hard they are completely different.

But I got to tell you, instant torque is addictive and having the torque through most of the rev range and at most speed is amazing.

It's a completely different experience.