Water meters install problem

Thoie

Froststop wrote: »

Maybe tenants in apartments need to start some campaign. It's very unfair to split the bill as all it will take is one person to waste water and the rest will have to cover the cost also!

You're right, but the problem is that any time you try to have a conversation with a large group about water charges, at least 50% will start yelling and shouting "f*** that, water should be free". People start shouting that they won't be paying it, blah blah blah. I don't have the time to start a campaign, or deal with those people. I suspect that if the minister started getting emails from lots of people stating they're happy to pay water charges, as long as they're usage-based, equitable and promote water conservation, it might make some impact.

Froststop

"at least 50% will start yelling and shouting "f*** that, water should be free"

You will find that they will be the first to pay! All mouth and no action.

"if the minister started getting emails from lots of people stating they're happy to pay water charges, as long as they're usage-based,"

Bombard his office with emails and letters. Getting people to act is the problem, again all mouth...

Victor

Froststop wrote: »

Quarterly readings with every second bill estimated. Not accurate enough to monitor for leaks but may help reduce consumption.

While that may not detect new leaks immediately, it will detect them over time and will certainly detect existing leaks.

It will also cost millions to collect readings. There is newer reading devices which would save this expense. The down fall is the newer readers will reduce employment.

Really? Why can't they use the same meter readers that Bord Gáis and ESB networks already use? Of just put a reader on An Post delivery vans/ bikes?

solas111

Having a rational discussion on this issue is like asking a mugger to steal from only one of your pockets.

There is no problem with meters cracking as a result of incompetent installation because the sitting ducks who pay the first time, i.e. you and I, can have their pockets dipped again to pay for a replacement meter.

Victor

solas111 wrote: »

Having a rational discussion on this issue is like asking a mugger to steal from only one of your pockets.

There is no problem with meters cracking as a result of incompetent installation because the sitting ducks who pay the first time, i.e. you and I, can have their pockets dipped again to pay for a replacement meter.

The contractors are responsible for meter defects.

solas111

Victor wrote: »

The contractors are responsible for meter defects.

When the contractor has completed his work and Water Ireland is sold off to some foreign speculator, who do you think will be paying for repairs?

Froststop

Victor wrote: »

While that may not detect new leaks immediately, it will detect them over time and will certainly detect existing leaks.

Really? Why can't they use the same meter readers that Bord Gáis and ESB networks already use? Of just put a reader on An Post delivery vans/ bikes?

Not your common leak, maybe a major rupture. If a small leak exists you might never know.
Because they have bought a cheap drive-by system already. €95/house and older technology.

However is raises the question why they were not included in the CER smart metering project? There is no reason why they couldn't have been. It would have been the ideal solution and all meters could work on the same system.

Post office vans would be the ideal option but the data has to be transferred to the water meter server every evening, unless they give An Post a contract for doing it. Bord Gáis vans might be an option.

They claim they can drive down the road at 50KM per hr and collect all the readings on the way. It doesn't work that way as all the data takes time to upload. Could be as much as 15-30 mins per 300 houses and you can miss as much as 1/3rd when the data is transferred to the main server.

Froststop

solas111 wrote: »

When the contractor has completed his work and Water Ireland is sold off to some foreign speculator, who do you think will be paying for repairs?

The service provider (Irish Water) or new owner is responsible for the first twenty years.

Victor

solas111 wrote: »

When the contractor has completed his work and Water Ireland is sold off to some foreign speculator, who do you think will be paying for repairs?

The contractor, because they won't be getting all their money up front.

Pete_Cavan

riclad wrote: »

IT WAS on the joe duffy show,today,
Re water meters ,it said there could be a problem with the method of putting in new meters .
ie most european countrys install them around 3ft down.
IF they are installed say 1ft down, if we have a bad winter,
the meters will freeze and crack , like a pipe breaks ,as ice, water expands.

Pipes froze before and will freeze again if it gets cold enough for the frost to penetrate to the depth of the pipe, a meter wont change this.

Thoie wrote: »

On top of that, they're still persisting with the bloody stupid idea of not bothering to install a meter in each apartment, but just having one for everyone who lives there, leaving people with a utility bill they have no control over

The meters are being installed where the public water pipe meets the private connection, in the case of apartment blocks there is one connection for the block, rather than individual connections for each apartments. Metering each apartment would involve meters on the private side of the connection, which is not the responibility of IW. Also, water generally enters an apartment at multiple points (ie. at the kitchen on one side of the apartment and at the bathroom on the other) so you either need multiple meters (one at each point and total them for the apt) or you replumb the apartment so water enters at one point and circulates around that apartment only.

Froststop wrote: »

Not your common leak, maybe a major rupture. If a small leak exists you might never know.
Because they have bought a cheap drive-by system already. €95/house and older technology.

It would identify leaks in the public pipes (ie. the reading on the meter on the trunk main should equal the sum of the individual connections). It wont identify leaks on the consumer side but that is not IWs problem.

Froststop wrote: »

However is raises the question why they were not included in the CER smart metering project? There is no reason why they couldn't have been. It would have been the ideal solution and all meters could work on the same system.

Electricity, water, gas, etc. generally enter the building at different points so to combine all into one meter would mean some serious rerouting of utilities in and around the house. Also I am sure there would be safety issues with bringing water and electricity to one point.

Froststop wrote: »

They claim they can drive down the road at 50KM per hr and collect all the readings on the way. It doesn't work that way as all the data takes time to upload. Could be as much as 15-30 mins per 300 houses and you can miss as much as 1/3rd when the data is transferred to the main server.

I seriously doubt it would take that long to read a few simple digits, I can download large video files on my phone in seconds.

Froststop

Pete_Cavan
"It would identify leaks in the public pipes (ie. the reading on the meter on the trunk main should equal the sum of the individual connections). It wont identify leaks on the consumer side but that is not IWs problem."

It should but getting the trunk meter calibrations correct to match private meters could be a problem. If the calibration is wrong readings won't match. I anticipate the customer is only worried about their leaks or consumption & the trunk is not the customers problem. There are AMR systems which show a leak on the consumer side & the consumer can log in a view data and costs.

Pete_Cavan
"Electricity, water, gas, etc. generally enter the building at different points so to combine all into one meter would mean some serious rerouting of utilities in and around the house. Also I am sure there would be safety issues with bringing water and electricity to one point."

Three meters and three readers, which we will have eventually, the elec meter is the main hub reader because there is power available, which communicates with the gas & water meters using Zigbee or Blue LE which are battery. Gas & water readings are sent to the elec meter and then sent out from there the billing system. This is the way it will work for the CER project only the water meter is not part of the scope.

Pete_Cavan
"I seriously doubt it would take that long to read a few simple digits, I can download large video files on my phone in seconds."

You are not down loading a few digits, you are down loading the data since the last read, e.g all readings for every pulse over the previous 3 months. This has to be done to prove to consumers how much they are consuming if a billing queries are made & IW will have to show it in graph format to explain to consumers. Otherwise it would be like a phone company sending you a bill and not being able to prove you made the calls.

These systems are in use in USA and most water utilities are now moving to sim based readers because of the problems collecting readings.

Thoie

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

The meters are being installed where the public water pipe meets the private connection, in the case of apartment blocks there is one connection for the block, rather than individual connections for each apartments. Metering each apartment would involve meters on the private side of the connection, which is not the responibility of IW.

Given that IW was created solely for the purpose of water metering 23 seconds ago, and they've known about this for over 2 years, that just isn't good enough. There was more than adequate time for them to plan for metering for each household, they just decided to ignore the issue. When creating the company there was nothing to stop them making meters on the private side the responsibility of IW (in the same way that electricity/gas meters are on the private side).

The DOE has on many occasions stated

The Government believes that metering is the fairest way to charge households for water. The introduction of volumetric water charges will provide households with an important incentive to reduce their consumption of water. International experience suggests the introduction of water meters can achieve a reduction in consumption of at least 10%.

(that's taken from here but I've heard the same from many different places).

If metering is the fairest way to charge households, and that's the way to provide an incentive, why not do that for all households? Or, if we're considering entire apartment blocks as a single household, why were individual apartments charged the household charge?

Apartments, like houses, have different input points - the ones I'm familiar with have a single point of entry for water, but so what if there are two entry points? With smart technology, that shouldn't matter - you just assign both meters to a single account, like ESB Networks do with day and night rate meters.

They have taken the idea of something "fair" and promoting water conservation and turned it into "feck a few yokes in wherever you feel like it and just bill the rest for whatever you want".

Pete_Cavan

Froststop wrote: »

It should but getting the trunk meter calibrations correct to match private meters could be a problem. If the calibration is wrong readings won't match. I anticipate the customer is only worried about their leaks or consumption & the trunk is not the customers problem. There are AMR systems which show a leak on the consumer side & the consumer can log in a view data and costs.

You will have problems with anything if it is calibrated wrong, same with water meters. IW still get paid for consumer side leaks. The consumer could install their own meter on their property to monitor their own usage and detect leaks on their side. Usage charges gives the consumer the incentive to do so. Not much more IW can do without works on private property and all the coordination and insurance issues associated with this.

Froststop wrote: »

Three meters and three readers, which we will have eventually, the elec meter is the main hub reader because there is power available, which communicates with the gas & water meters using Zigbee or Blue LE which are battery. Gas & water readings are sent to the elec meter and then sent out from there the billing system. This is the way it will work for the CER project only the water meter is not part of the scope.

And when will the CER project actually happen? If not right now (which it isnt) then it is largely irrelevant. When the CER smart metering does happen (God knows when that will be), then those meters only have to be able to read the water meter already in place.

Froststop wrote: »

You are not down loading a few digits, you are down loading the data since the last read, e.g all readings for every pulse over the previous 3 months. This has to be done to prove to consumers how much they are consuming if a billing queries are made & IW will have to show it in graph format to explain to consumers. Otherwise it would be like a phone company sending you a bill and not being able to prove you made the calls.

Really, and is it the same with electricity and gas bills? I think you are mistaken here. And it is nothing like a phone company sending you a bill and not being able to prove you made the calls, phone calls are charged at different rates for different types of calls, plus there is also texts and data too. Water charges will be based on the volume of water supplied to your home as measured by your water meter, only one variable so much simpler calculation (Y cubic metres of water x €Z/m3 + standing charge - free allowance). Only the current and previous readings are needed.

Pete_Cavan

Thoie wrote: »

Given that IW was created solely for the purpose of water metering 23 seconds ago, and they've known about this for over 2 years, that just isn't good enough. There was more than adequate time for them to plan for metering for each household, they just decided to ignore the issue. When creating the company there was nothing to stop them making meters on the private side the responsibility of IW (in the same way that electricity/gas meters are on the private side).

The DOE has on many occasions stated (that's taken from here but I've heard the same from many different places).

If metering is the fairest way to charge households, and that's the way to provide an incentive, why not do that for all households? Or, if we're considering entire apartment blocks as a single household, why were individual apartments charged the household charge?

Apartments, like houses, have different input points - the ones I'm familiar with have a single point of entry for water, but so what if there are two entry points? With smart technology, that shouldn't matter - you just assign both meters to a single account, like ESB Networks do with day and night rate meters.

They have taken the idea of something "fair" and promoting water conservation and turned it into "feck a few yokes in wherever you feel like it and just bill the rest for whatever you want".

Each apt is wired individually but they are not plumbed individually so ESB metering has not relevance to water metering.

I am sure there are many ways to define a household, but if a household is where a private connection branches off a public watermain then yes, an entire apartment block is a single household. The internal pipework feeding water to the various sinks, toilets, etc. in each apt is private property and not IWs to go installing meters on. Do you think it would be ok for ESB to come into your house, knock a whole in a wall and install a meter to measure usage at the socket your TV is plugged into?

There has to be a balance between fair and practical and your view of it is too black and white. If you told apt dwellers their options are (i) unfair; entire apt block has one meter with bill proportioned out or (ii) fair; rip out plasterboard on walls all over your apt to allow it be replumbed, I think most would go for the unfair option over the hassle of fair.

Sam Russell

A few years ago, we had our watermains replaced with a blue plastic pipe running inside the old mains. New stop cocks installed and our water supply was much improved in pressure, flow and water quality. I noticed for some time afterwards, guys on their knees working on the stopcocks or near there. They appeared to be playing with little plastic bits with LCD displays which looked like water meters. They said they were testing for leaks.

Some time later, some guys were bolting a white box to a lamp post just up from me, and I asked them what it was and what it was for and I was told it was to read the water meters. Subsequently some houses had repairs to the water supplies to fix leaks.

As far as I can tell, our area was a test area for water meters. If that is so, then water meters will be read remotely and continuously with the data sent back directly to a central base. No meter readers or drive-by vans.

We also had our gas meter changed for a modern digital one, but as far as I can tell it is not remote reading (but it could be).

Joined up thinking!

Froststop

Sam Russell wrote: »

A few years ago, we had our watermains replaced with a blue plastic pipe running inside the old mains. New stop cocks installed and our water supply was much improved in pressure, flow and water quality. I noticed for some time afterwards, guys on their knees working on the stopcocks or near there. They appeared to be playing with little plastic bits with LCD displays which looked like water meters. They said they were testing for leaks.

Some time later, some guys were bolting a white box to a lamp post just up from me, and I asked them what it was and what it was for and I was told it was to read the water meters. Subsequently some houses had repairs to the water supplies to fix leaks.

As far as I can tell, our area was a test area for water meters. If that is so, then water meters will be read remotely and continuously with the data sent back directly to a central base. No meter readers or drive-by vans.

We also had our gas meter changed for a modern digital one, but as far as I can tell it is not remote reading (but it could be).

Joined up thinking!

Hi Sam,

Testing was carried out on using different metering systems, it sounds like a local area network system. The white box is the main hub and collects data from a number of meters before sending the data on to the utility. There would be meter readers/modems needed to communicate with the white box.

Some systems send the reading in real time within 30 mins with automatic water usage cost, leak detection, meter temps, daily usage & customer log in to view your data in simple graph format allowing the customer to monitor their own consumption. No drive-by or central collection hubs needed. Each meter communicates individually.

Sam Russell

Froststop wrote: »

Hi Sam,

Testing was carried out on using different metering systems, it sounds like a local area network system. The white box is the main hub and collects data from a number of meters before sending the data on to the utility. There would be meter readers/modems needed to communicate with the white box.

Some systems send the reading in real time within 30 mins with automatic water usage cost, leak detection, meter temps, daily usage & customer log in to view your data in simple graph format allowing the customer to monitor their own consumption. No drive-by or central collection hubs needed. Each meter communicates individually.

They came and added a second box but I do not know the exact functions and we get no information whatsoever about the scheme. It could be counting seagulls for all we know!

I doubt it could read the meters directly because of the distances involved. So maybe I'll call DCC and ask them.

Sam Russell

By the way, the meter (if that is what it is) is protected from frost by a large polystyrene cover which would be quite effective for a water feed in use (as the water is not frozen). I think frozen mains is not too big a problem for most installation. Cowboy estates might be different.

Froststop

Sam Russell wrote: »

They came and added a second box but I do not know the exact functions and we get no information whatsoever about the scheme. It could be counting seagulls for all we know!

I doubt it could read the meters directly because of the distances involved. So maybe I'll call DCC and ask them.

The second box may have been to pick up the meters the first couldn't, this can be problem with local area systems.

Froststop

Sam Russell wrote: »

By the way, the meter (if that is what it is) is protected from frost by a large polystyrene cover which would be quite effective for a water feed in use (as the water is not frozen). I think frozen mains is not too big a problem for most installation. Cowboy estates might be different.

Is the polystyrene cover flat or does it surround the meter down the sides?

You may have raised a very good point with your post!

If the meter is deep enough it will be less likely to freeze. The problem then is getting the readings or a signal out from the AMR system. May result in repeaters being fitted or worst case some meters having to read manually. Ultimately it could be a nightmare. It's finding the right balance IMO.

Sam Russell

Froststop wrote: »

Is the polystyrene cover flat or does it surround the meter down the sides?

The polystyrene was shaped around the meter but I only glanced at it over your ones shoulder. I think it was meant as insulation.

Remember, the pipe has water flowing through it at about +3 to +5 degrees centigrade in even the coldest weather. (Providing it keeps flowing). The two cold winters we had recently were unprecedented with air temperatures down to -18 degrees, but even still our mains never froze, it was only feeders into properties that froze.

Froststop

Sam Russell wrote: »

The polystyrene was shaped around the meter but I only glanced at it over your ones shoulder. I think it was meant as insulation.

Remember, the pipe has water flowing through it at about +3 to +5 degrees centigrade in even the coldest weather. (Providing it keeps flowing). The two cold winters we had recently were unprecedented with air temperatures down to -18 degrees, but even still our mains never froze, it was only feeders into properties that froze.

Running water will freeze! It's depends on flow rate, pipe size and temperature.
Is everyone to run taps at full bore to prevent freezing and pay IW for the inconvenience of cold weather.

If you escaped freezing water mains pipes underground, then it's because of one the following:
Dept of pipe, flow rate if taps running, or Luck! Think Water Wastage!

It will be the "feeders that freeze first".

This is one of the problems! It will be IW's problem like Scottish Waters problem to prevent freezing pipes to homes. "They are providing the Service"!! & will have to insure water runs to every billed home.

Are you suggesting we run our taps to prevent freezing?

Trunk mains are usually deep enough to prevent freezing!
Supplies to homes usually may not be deep enough!

Sam Russell

Froststop wrote: »

Running water will freeze! It's depends on flow rate, pipe size and temperature.
Is everyone to run taps at full bore to prevent freezing and pay IW for the inconvenience of cold weather.

If you escaped freezing water mains pipes underground, then it's because of one the following:
Dept of pipe, flow rate if taps running, or Luck! Think Water Wastage!

It will be the "feeders that freeze first".

This is one of the problems! It will be IW's problem like Scottish Waters problem to prevent freezing pipes to homes. "They are providing the Service"!! & will have to insure water runs to every billed home.

Are you suggesting we run our taps to prevent freezing?

Trunk mains are usually deep enough to prevent freezing!
Supplies to homes usually may not be deep enough!

The pipe my feeder gets it water from has water flowing past supplying other users besides me. It is that flow that keeps it from freezing. Now if we had sustained -18 deg temperatures we would indeed be in trouble but that is very very rare in this country. Even -5 deg is rare (averaged out over 24 hours). Obviously running taps to prevent freezing is nuts. (Only FBD suggested this and were quickly put to rights).

Deep frosts are the problem, not snow.

Froststop

Sam Russell wrote: »

The pipe my feeder gets it water from has water flowing past supplying other users besides me. It is that flow that keeps it from freezing. Now if we had sustained -18 deg temperatures we would indeed be in trouble but that is very very rare in this country. Even -5 deg is rare (averaged out over 24 hours). Obviously running taps to prevent freezing is nuts. (Only FBD suggested this and were quickly put to rights).

Deep frosts are the problem, not snow.

It all depends on the time freezing takes place. 24hrs, 72hrs or more!
We have found insulated pipes subject to freezing temps longer than 48-72 hrs have froze.
The trunk main is less likely to freeze because of the dept & the flow rate to other buildings. Your feeder, unless running will freeze unless the flow rate or dept is incorrect. If the pipe is deep enough it may not freeze depending on freezing times/duration of freezing times. If in 2010, we had 2-5 days of freezing temps, lasting longer it may have been a different story. The flow rate past your connection has nothing to do with the temps of your feeder. It must be deep enough or water was running helping to prevent freezing.

Personally I had no problems with mains freezing apart from a garden tap bursting.

NUTLEY BOY

Will the new meters incorporate a stop cock or will there be a new stop cock or will they just connect to the existing cock ?

Victor

NUTLEY BOY wrote: »

Will the new meters incorporate a stop cock or will there be a new stop cock or will they just connect to the existing cock ?

At least one, but preferably two stop cocks are needed - one either side of the meter so that meters can be serviced / replaced intermittently. Whether one is incorporated into the meter, I don't know, but I would suggest no.

Froststop

NUTLEY BOY wrote: »

Will the new meters incorporate a stop cock or will there be a new stop cock or will they just connect to the existing cock ?

New meter boxes will have one stop cock and the meter in the box. Most stop cocks have a tap fitted, so no more stop cock keys needed to turn on & off water. However some can be hard to open the cover to access the stop cock.

NUTLEY BOY

Thanks for that.
We have the old style cock turned with a key locating on to a square shaft. It does not shut off fully now so I hope it gets replaced !

Victor

NUTLEY BOY wrote: »

Thanks for that.
We have the old style cock turned with a key locating on to a square shaft. It does not shut off fully now so I hope it gets replaced !

Leave a note in the chamber for the fitters.

billy few mates

Does anybody know where I can find the regulations or guidelines for the installation of these meters and the minimum depth they must be installed at...?