Price Of Drink In Pubs

Big Nasty

This isn't a rant thread, or at least not the rant thread you thought it would be.

We all know the pub trade is in difficulty and more and more people are drinking at home and going out less. We all know why too.

Having worked in the bar game for many years and seeing the level of outgoings I know first hand that a pub charging €4 for stout / ale and €4.50 for lager / cider is (in a lot of cases) not doing a whole lot more than breaking even. And those prices are pretty cheap as is. Of course most people scream that publicans are charging us too much and that they have been ripping us off for years and have made their own beds so fook them.

What the majority of people don't realise is that the main breweries are charging the publican more than twice as much per unit as they are selling to the multiples. We've all seen supermarkets selling cases of beer for €20 - €25, lets call it €24 for ease in this topic. If a supermarket can sell a case of beer for €24, or €1 per unit that means even if they are only breaking even they are paying only 81.3c per unit once it's de-vated @ 23%. Yet publicans pay cq. €150 for a keg (ex. vat), i.e. €1.70 per pint from a 50L keg.

Now obviously there are other factors involved, e.g. supermarkets may sell below cost to entice customers in, supermarkets have bulk buying power, breweries have to deliver kegs to individual pubs as opposed to one depot with the multiples, etc. Even still it can't be argued that publicans are paying close to twice as much per unit of beer than the supermarket. Therefore it can be argued that we are being robbed of our social life by main stream breweries, not publicans.

Thoughts?

danotroy

Why cant pubs find a cheaper supplier? With the increased proliferation in craft breweries can they not offer a cheaper alternative to the major breweries?

minidazzler

danotroy wrote: »

Why cant pubs find a cheaper supplier? With the increased proliferation in craft breweries can they not offer a cheaper alternative to the major breweries?

Because people want Ken, Carl, Bud and Martha. If an enterprising publican buys a fcukton to get a cheaper price and then sells it on, the Breweries will cut them off.

danotroy

minidazzler wrote: »

Because people want Ken, Carl, Bud and Martha. If an enterprising publican buys a fcukton to get a cheaper price and then sells it on, the Breweries will cut them off.

yes but in any area with a large educated beer drinking clientele base surely they could go independent? like the Franciscan well in cork alright when i was last there 4 years ago the prices were comparable to ken and bud.

minidazzler

danotroy wrote: »

yes but in any area with a large educated beer drinking clientele base surely they could go independent? like the Franciscan well in cork alright when i was last there 4 years ago the prices were comparable to ken and bud.

And if 50 pubs go independant, they don't have a selling point because there's another 49 pubs like that. Publicans are pretty much trapped by the big breweries, without major investment from another source they'll stay stuck.

The big guys, Diageo, Heineken and IDL throw free stuff at you when you open a bar, but a year down the line it can be hard to get glasses for some small bars if they don't do enough trade by the big guys standards.

danotroy

would it be an idea to set up an independent vintners federation be set up to help those 50 independent pubs have collective purchasing power? very simplified questions i know.

Big Nasty

Also craft breweries charge publicans only marginally more for their product than the macro breweries. This when their cost to produce is something like three times as much per unit.

Tube

MCMLXXV wrote: »

Also craft breweries charge publicans only marginally more for their product than the macro breweries. This when their cost to produce is something like three times as much per unit.

No they don't. A keg of craft costs the same as a keg of Carlsberg, and their costs are somewhat offset by tax breaks.

People will pay the prices pubs ask. There is no simple answer as to why they ask them. It can be high rent, high rates, both, or just profiteering.

Unfortunately there is no consumer group in Ireland that represents beer drinkers.

drumswan

Tube wrote: »

No they don't. A keg of craft costs the same as a keg of Carlsberg, and their costs are somewhat offset by tax breaks.

People will pay the prices pubs ask. There is no simple answer as to why they ask them. It can be high rent, high rates, both, or just profiteering.

Unfortunately there is no consumer group in Ireland that represents beer drinkers.

Um, beoir is a consumer group which represents beer drinkers.

Big Nasty

Tube wrote: »

No they don't. A keg of craft costs the same as a keg of Carlsberg, and their costs are somewhat offset by tax breaks.

People will pay the prices pubs ask. There is no simple answer as to why they ask them. It can be high rent, high rates, both, or just profiteering.

Unfortunately there is no consumer group in Ireland that represents beer drinkers.

Craft breweries might charge the same but craft beer costs close to 3X to produce. Not because they're using some special elixir, just down to volume.

Pubs are charging the prices they're charging because they have to to try and break even. People aren't paying them, well a lot are but a lot more are staying at home because they can buy beer from the multiples for a fraction of the price.

Anyhow, the point of the thread, in case you missed it, is that macro breweries are selling beer at close to 2X to publicans than they are selling it to the multiples. Hence why we pay so much for a pint in a pub.

To be fair, if the macros matched what they're charging the multiples to publicans there's no way craft breweries could match it.

drumswan

Whats a multiple? A supermarket?

minidazzler

drumswan wrote: »

Whats a multiple? A supermarket?

A group of bars or off licences that have a much higher buy power than a guy out on his own.

my my my

the price of drink in pubs is untenable

Big Nasty

minidazzler wrote: »

A group of bars or off licences that have a much higher buy power than a guy out on his own.

It's a supermarket.

Heroditas

my my my wrote: »

the price of drink in pubs is untenable

When I started college in '92, I was earning £2.50per hour in a newsagent, the price of a pint was similar.
Minimum wage today is over €8 per hour yet pints in most places are about €5.

What's hurting pubs in some cases is the differential between off-licence prices and pubs.
Back in '96, I remember yellow pack lager being 99p a can or 79p on special offer. Ten cans, pack of fags and some crisps for a tenner!
99p for absolute muck - that's €1.27!
You can get the likes of Carlsberg, Heineken etc for that price now or even cheaper!
Prices for cans of the big brands have fallen in relative terms, as has the price of the pint, compared to 1992 levels. However, it's the differential between off and on-licence prices that has dramatically changed.

Zebra3

drumswan wrote: »

Um, beoir is a consumer group which represents beer drinkers.

Looks more like a group that supports micros to me.

Different thing altogether.

bladespin

I'd tend to disagree, it's not so much the difference in price between the pub and the off licence, it's simply the cost of a night out, as a couple with kids we go out very little nowadays but when we do there's generally not much change from a hundred euro (between drinks, taxis, club admission, take away etc), we just can't manage that regularly anymore.

Sit in with a few cans (cheap or otherwise) and you'll notice a massive saving.

The only thing that would tempt me back on a regular basis would be a massive reduction in price (not saying this is possible in anyway).

Also, it does seem that when every other retail sector - clothes, groceries, toys, you name it, have been reducing prices the pubs have steadfastly refused - at least where I live, a pint is more expensive now than at the height of the boom - can't understand that.

Leroy42

It is true that it is really the price difference in on/off trade that is causing the problem rather than the price of the pint itself.

When a customer can walk into the Petrol station and get a bottle of Hein/Bud or whatever for €2, and then walk into the local pub and be charged €5 for the exact same bottle then there is little wonder that consumers question the value.

It appears that publicans have not even tried to adjust to this new position. Telling customers that its rent/wages/brewery prices etc is a waste of time. The customer doesn't care. Just ask HMV/bookstores/xtravision etc. It is up to the business to be competitive, while the customer may be willing to pay a premium for certain things there is a limit and it appears that that limit has been reached and crossed for many people.

Can the pubs survive? Yes, if they start to operate in the industry that they now find themselves in. No, if they continue to believe that somehow people will return to them.

Big Nasty

Leroy42 wrote: »

It is true that it is really the price difference in on/off trade that is causing the problem rather than the price of the pint itself.

When a customer can walk into the Petrol station and get a bottle of Hein/Bud or whatever for €2, and then walk into the local pub and be charged €5 for the exact same bottle then there is little wonder that consumers question the value.

It appears that publicans have not even tried to adjust to this new position. Telling customers that its rent/wages/brewery prices etc is a waste of time. The customer doesn't care. Just ask HMV/bookstores/xtravision etc. It is up to the business to be competitive, while the customer may be willing to pay a premium for certain things there is a limit and it appears that that limit has been reached and crossed for many people.

Can the pubs survive? Yes, if they start to operate in the industry that they now find themselves in. No, if they continue to believe that somehow people will return to them.

You're missing the point. Breweries are charging publicans cq. €1.70 for a pint. Shops are getting cans / bottles of beer from the same breweries for less than a euro.

Breweries dictate to publicans the price, there is no negotiation on this but they will get a rebate for certain amounts of volume. Still doesn't bring it remotely near what the breweries are selling to shops for.

Aviva stadium kicked up about this and threatened to buy from the UK where they could buy the same stock for half the price. Diageo reduced their prices to Aviva due to their purchasing power but did nothing for the ordinary publican.

Leroy42

I get the point you are making, it is just that for the customer it is irrelevant. Customers don't pay based on the cost base, they pay based on perceived value for money. If the mutliples and even Aviva can negotiate better prices then basically the pubs are being priced out of the market. They either need to negotiate a lower price or come up with something to differentiate themselves. The VFI should be using their grouping to demand lower prices if that is the case. Trying to pass on the higher costs to the customers is bound to lose customers.

And to be honest, publicans crying that they have to pay over the odds rings a little shallow when for years, and still today, they charge €2 for a can of coke.

Clearly many pubs have seen the changes and now offer food etc, but with the drink driving etc it would make sense to offer free cordials (one for every 3 other drinks or if >50€ spent all night all cordials will be free or whatever) you would then possibly get more people out to the pub.

Complaining about how hard business is is not going to sut any mustard with 400+K people out of work.

Heroditas

To be honest, it's not the price of the pint that bothers me.
What bothers me is the blaring music or every square inch of wall festooned with TVs showing Sky Sports News or some obscure football match on Sky Sports 3..... or worse of all, the muck masquerading as food and toilets that I wouldn't even allow a pig use.
There's plenty of pubs even in Dublin with disgraceful toilet facilities. Stag's Head is one and the men's toilet downstairs in O'Neills seems to have been out of action for ages. The one upstairs is rotten.

Lucena

Yeah, the telly thing gets right on my t1ts. Worst I ever sew was an Irish pub in Brussels (Big Oak or something like that) for a table quiz night where they had at least five screens scattered about the pub, all showing Sky News on mute.

What sort of a ****e atmosphere is that? I must be getting old though, most people don't seem to mind, or maybe they just put up with it and don't say anything.

Loire

How about reducing the "pint" to 450ml and charging e3.50?

Big Nasty

Loire wrote: »

How about reducing the "pint" to 450ml and charging e3.50?

How about breweries charge publicans the same rate they do the shops and pints could be sold for less than €3!?!

hfallada

Im pretty sure a stadium in Ireland realised it was cheaper to buy the beer from the uk and pay the customs duty here. The breweries here, then cut the price so the stadium would continue to buy the beer in Ireland.

Irish pubs should be like spar or centra and buy in bulk together so they can get a discount

Plus OP if bars without cover charge can charge €3 for a pint. It shows they are getting alcohol a lot cheaper than you think they are

minidazzler

hfallada wrote: »

Im pretty sure a stadium in Ireland realised it was cheaper to buy the beer from the uk and pay the customs duty here. The breweries here, then cut the price so the stadium would continue to buy the beer in Ireland.

Irish pubs should be like spar or centra and buy in bulk together so they can get a discount

Plus OP if bars without cover charge can charge €3 for a pint. It shows they are getting alcohol a lot cheaper than you think they are

Groups of bars would do that. Fitzgeralds in Dublin and Reardens on Cork do. But the small rural pubs just can't and other independent pubs in cities would need to hire someone to co-ordinate orders anyway which could kill the profit in it. Never mind the need for storage.

Big Nasty

There was a kind of co-op set up years back to try and do this and Diageo refused to sell to them IIRC.

Geuze

Yes, there was, I can't recall the details. It was an early internet-type buying group for pubs??

The two dominant brewers in Ireland exploit their size and power, as expected, by charging much higher prices to their Irl pub customers. They charge less into export markets.

I recall Showerings admitting that when they launched Magners in NI, they expected lower prices and margins than RoI sales.

The Aviva stadium caterer is another example of lower trade prices in UK markets for beer brewed in Dublin.

Could pubs join forces and buy from NI or GB keg wholesalers??

Geuze

The arrival of JD W into the Irish market, see other thread, will be interesting.

How may the RoI suppliers react?

Will JDW use their own UK supply chain?

Or will they buy off local RoI suppliers?

What will their pricing strategy be like?

In their pubs, they have offers like burger + pint for 6-7 stg, that should mean 10 euro approx......

Will they sell cask ale?

They have a double offer on spirits, I think it's an extra 1 stg to get a double...........

Big Nasty

Geuze wrote: »

Or will they buy off local RoI suppliers?

At current rates? Like fvck they will!

While I wouldn't darken the door of one I'm actually glad to see JDW enter the ROI market. Bit of competition never did anyone no harm.

irish_goat

Great news I think. Hopefully they'll sell Irish beer.

Leroy42

minidazzler wrote: »

Groups of bars would do that. Fitzgeralds in Dublin and Reardens on Cork do. But the small rural pubs just can't and other independent pubs in cities would need to hire someone to co-ordinate orders anyway which could kill the profit in it. Never mind the need for storage.

So it could be done, but because of the hassle the pubs won't bother and then cry about customers picking a cheaper option?

If the publican cannot get the product at the right price, simply move to another product. If they feel that their customers only want that type of product then they need to look at other areas. They need to differentiate themselves from purely drink, it's like comparing steak bought in a butchers to a restaurant. same thing but you are paying for the experience and talent of the chef. However, taking a bottle from a fridge and taking the top off does not equate to an additional 300% charge.

rubadub

MCMLXXV wrote: »

If a supermarket can sell a case of beer for €24, or €1 per unit that means even if they are only breaking even they are paying only 81.3c per unit once it's de-vated @ 23%. Yet publicans pay cq. €150 for a keg (ex. vat), i.e. €1.70 per pint from a 50L keg.

My mate works in a bar and they get all the heineken bottles in the local tesco or centra. There is no way I believe a centra is selling below cost, it doesn't fit the "weekly shop" model. Distributors rip off the publicans, and then this overpaying morons scream "below cost"

If I owned a pub I would shun overpriced kegs, I would also sell cans. I can never get my head around why more pubs do not sell cans as an alternative, or alongside them. Some have weird notions about them, they would NEVER drink a can in a pub, yet at home or at a friends BBQ no problem, they are also less choosy.

I was in one pub in enniscorthy which only had cans. In another they had cans at a gig going on, possibly to not have to give out glasses or crappy plastic cups, made perfect sense to me.

Leroy42

rubadub wrote: »

My mate works in a bar and they get all the heineken bottles in the local tesco or centra. There is no way I believe a centra is selling below cost, it doesn't fit the "weekly shop" model. Distributors rip off the publicans, and then this overpaying morons scream "below cost"

If I owned a pub I would shun overpriced kegs, I would also sell cans. I can never get my head around why more pubs do not sell cans as an alternative, or alongside them. Some have weird notions about them, they would NEVER drink a can in a pub, yet at home or at a friends BBQ no problem, they are also less choosy.

I was in one pub in enniscorthy which only had cans. In another they had cans at a gig going on, possibly to not have to give out glasses or crappy plastic cups, made perfect sense to me.

Thats a very interesting idea. The publican could continue to offer draught pints at €5, alongside a chilled can poured into a glass for (let allow the pub to make money here) €2. I know if I was offered that choice which I'd go for.

For those you rate the draught pint as superior then the option is still there, but no doubt the €2 would attract lots of people back in as the extra cost over the home option is worth it for the night out.

Many restuarants do a version of this by allowing people to bring their own wine. Yes they loose out on the wine profits, but they make money ona table that would probably be empty.

Heroditas

Kennys in Lucan now allow you buy wine in their attached off-licence and for a modest corkage charge, you can then drink it in the pub.
what's even more impressive is if you ring ahead and pick a red wine, they'll uncork it and decant it or let it breathe so it's ready for you when you arrive.

Sometimes it's the simple things and the small touches!

bladespin

Leroy42 wrote: »

Thats a very interesting idea. The publican could continue to offer draught pints at €5, alongside a chilled can poured into a glass for (let allow the pub to make money here) €2. I know if I was offered that choice which I'd go for.

My local does something like that, they don't have Carlsberg on draft so sell the cans to anyone who wants it, €4.20 a can lol.

my friend

Leroy42 wrote: »

Thats a very interesting idea. The publican could continue to offer draught pints at €5, alongside a chilled can poured into a glass for (let allow the pub to make money here) €2. I know if I was offered that choice which I'd go for.

For those you rate the draught pint as superior then the option is still there, but no doubt the €2 would attract lots of people back in as the extra cost over the home option is worth it for the night out.

Many restuarants do a version of this by allowing people to bring their own wine. Yes they loose out on the wine profits, but they make money ona table that would probably be empty.

Believe it or not the party wouldn't last long, note what happened most of the pubs that went down the €3 pint road a few years ago.

Lucena

my friend wrote: »

Believe it or not the party wouldn't last long, note what happened most of the pubs that went down the €3 pint road a few years ago.

What happened? Scummier elements turning up? Or normal customers getting sh1t-faced?

rubadub

Leroy42 wrote: »

draught pints at €5, alongside a chilled can poured into a glass for (let allow the pub to make money here) €2.

I would have them at the same profit per ml in my pub, so not huge difference, I would think about having a notice up displaying this. I am not sure if kegs or bottles cost more to pubs, e.g. storage, maintenance of lines, getting rid of bottles (if not bought through distributors)

Lucena wrote: »

What happened?

Thats what I wonder, any barmen I talked to said it was a great success. I know lads in their 50's who changed from being strict bud drinkers to tuborg or tennants.

Leroy42

rubadub wrote: »

I would have them at the same profit per ml in my pub, so not huge difference, I would think about having a notice up displaying this. I am not sure if kegs or bottles cost more to pubs, e.g. storage, maintenance of lines, getting rid of bottles (if not bought through distributors)

Of course there would be a difference. This whole thread is based on the OP assertion that the pubs are effectively being charged extra for their kegs than the multiples for their bottles/cans.

If I can buy a can for €1.50 from my local Centra you can be sure that a pub shifting a few hundred/thousand a week will get better pricing.

And forget about the same profit per ML, that's the sort of thinking that has the pub trade i the mess they claim they are in. Unwilling to shirt their business model in the face of additional competition and changing customer habits.

rubadub

Leroy42 wrote: »

Of course there would be a difference.

I am saying the price of serving and cleaning up after a drink will be different between cans/bottles/pints. So this must be factored in, and I am just not sure which costs pubs more.

You are suggesting a €3 difference, I cannot see it being that much if they are working off the same margins.

And forget about the same profit per ML, that's the sort of thinking that has the pub trade i the mess they claim they are in.

what happened to the pubs? do you know of some who priced on a per ml basis? or what?

Leroy42

I'm not suggesting a €3 difference, the market conditions are. Of course the publican is entitled to charge for clean-up, premises etc in the same way a restaurant or cafe does, but selling a can for €5 which can be bought in your local Centra of €1.5/€2 is not going to fool anyone.

Pubs are saying that trade is falling away, smoking ban/drink driving crackdown and now below cost selling. All I'm saying is that the pub can continue on thinking that it is somehow a protected species but in truth many will be forced to close as they cling on to a model based on pretty much them having the only real access to the market.

Remember that alcohol used to be much harder to get in prior years. No local Centra, no late night shopping etc. The market for their product has changed. It is now much easier to get and much cheaper. Why pay €5 for a pint in a bar when you can have a few of them at home for the same amount. That is the reality whether they like it or not and customers are not concerned with how much it costs to run the place.

The pubs in my area seem to be doing little to counteract the new market. They seem to think that simply sitting there will be enough to bring the punters in. Can't do drink deals, do free food, free cordials, quiz nights etc.

The pubs I have worked in/for don't price per ML put rather on number of pints per keg and GM%. So Keg costs x amount / by number fo pints expected from it (usually a good barmen will get a few more) and get price per pint. Then check against other pubs and viola.

Big Nasty

Leroy42 wrote: »

If I can buy a can for €1.50 from my local Centra you can be sure that a pub shifting a few hundred/thousand a week will get better pricing.

They're not though.

minidazzler

This is actually something I've been really thinking about for a while now. I don't see why all pubs have taps, there is less profit in them and upkeep of them costs more. Why are there no bottle and shot only bars in Ireland? No draft, just bottles, shots, wine and maybe cocktails. Simple and inexpensive.....

I'm trying to put together some sort of business plan where I could open a bar for 20 odd thousand and run it on the principal of simplicity. No fcuking about with getting keg lines installed. Just the above mentioned. I'd imagine if it's legal to sell drink bought in Tesco and all on the up and up, a single man operation could turn a decent profit quickly at €3.50 a bottle.

The two main issues I can see with it are finding a suitable location and fighting off the breweries looking to give you a few free kegs so you install taps.

Leroy42

MCMLXXV wrote: »

They're not though.

They're not though what?

They aren't getting better pricing? Well that is their problem really. They need to move away from direct buying from breweries. Many don't because they fear what will happen, but sitting around leaving things as they are are seeing many pubs have to close, I know which avenue I would go down.

Pubs have had it so easy for so long that many owners simply do not know what to do when faced with a changing market.

The success of micro brewery pubs prove that there is a market out there for beers other than the usual. I'm not saying get rid of the other usuals but also offer alternatives at better pricing. Many will stick with the usual and pay the premium, I would hazard that many would be inclined to at least try the cheaper alternatives.

Geuze

minidazzler wrote: »

I'm trying to put together some sort of business plan where I could open a bar for 20 odd thousand and run it on the principal of simplicity. No fcuking about with getting keg lines installed. Just the above mentioned. I'd imagine if it's legal to sell drink bought in Tesco and all on the up and up, a single man operation could turn a decent profit quickly at €3.50 a bottle.

The two main issues I can see with it are finding a suitable location and fighting off the breweries looking to give you a few free kegs so you install taps.

33cl bottle at 3.50 = 6 euro per pint.

I pay 4.00-4.50 per pint for Guinness, Galway Hooker PA, Guinness ES bottles, etc.

Why would I pay 6 euro per pint for the same beer, in a bottle??

Unless you mean 50cl bottles??

Geuze

minidazzler wrote: »

This is actually something I've been really thinking about for a while now. I don't see why all pubs have taps, there is less profit in them and upkeep of them costs more. Why are there no bottle and shot only bars in Ireland? No draft, just bottles, shots, wine and maybe cocktails. Simple and inexpensive.....

Guinness draught isn't packaged in bottles, is it?

You can get 33cl and 50cl cans of Guinness draught, ok.

techdiver

If the breweries are the issue, why do micro brewery operations such as "The Porter House" charge so much for their own beers? Surely the fact that they are not reliant on Heineken etc means that their own product should be sold cheaper, but it's not. In fact it's as high if not higher than what is charged for mainstream beers in ordinary pubs.

Lucena

techdiver wrote: »

If the breweries are the issue, why do micro brewery operations such as "The Porter House" charge so much for their own beers? Surely the fact that they are not reliant on Heineken etc means that their own product should be sold cheaper, but it's not. In fact it's as high if not higher than what is charged for mainstream beers in ordinary pubs.

Because there's a demand for high-end beers, and very few outlets in Ireland. Any time I'm in Dublin, I'll try to go to the Porter House, and as it's at most once every year, I don't mind paying a little extra.

Also their central location may mean they have to keep their prices up.

However if more pubs did this, prices might come down a bit, as the Porter House would no longer be unique.

Duiske

bladespin wrote: »

My local does something like that, they don't have Carlsberg on draft so sell the cans to anyone who wants it, €4.20 a can lol.

In my area I don't know a pub that does not sell cans. Bud and Heineken seem to be most popular canned beers, though obviously far outsold by draught.
Bulmer's cans though, at a guess, appear to outsell draught and bottles by about 3/1. Prices vary from €3 to €3.50 for beers and roughly €3.50 to €4 for cider. I'd prefer draught Bulmers myself, but with the popularity of cans very few pubs bothered with pumps, and some got rid.

irish_goat

techdiver wrote: »

If the breweries are the issue, why do micro brewery operations such as "The Porter House" charge so much for their own beers? Surely the fact that they are not reliant on Heineken etc means that their own product should be sold cheaper, but it's not. In fact it's as high if not higher than what is charged for mainstream beers in ordinary pubs.

Porterhouse is cheaper, it's about €4.90 for a pint of lager in the their Temple Bar pub, surely cheaper than most nearby places.

Micros also can't make beer anywhere near as cheaply as the big boys can.